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These have become some of the most valuable companies on Earth. The idea that there are lapses in governance in these companies is insane. Any shareholder is bu

by jdross 2mo ago

These have become some of the most valuable companies on Earth. The idea that there are lapses in governance in these companies is insane. Any shareholder is buying in fully aware of the governance structure. Many because of it! Shareholders’ rights are clearly enumerated.

NuclearPM 2mo ago
> Any shareholder is buying in fully aware of the governance structure. This is laughable. Many shareholders don’t even know they own stock in these companies.
- andsoitis 2mo ago
  That’s an indictment on them. You should know where you’re putting your money and why. If you delegate this to a professional or influencer, you do not get to blame them. After all, you could just buy something you think you understand better like real estate or keep it in cash.
  - CamperBob2 2mo ago
    Exactly. If nothing else, you should know who you're supporting. Many people wouldn't support SpaceX and Tesla if they knew more about Musk. Conversely, some other people who don't know much about him might want to support his companies.
  - StilesCrisis 2mo ago
    You don't get much of a say in how your retirement fund is invested.
    - kelnos 2mo ago
      How true is that these days? Sure, old-school pension funds are managed without any input from the future pensioners, but most 401ks (and similar) these days have a variety of investment options that the employee can choose from. Yes, there are some that have extremely limited options, but I'm not sure how common those are. And once you've left the company and roll those 401ks over into IRAs, you can put them at whatever financial institution you want, many of which have more or less unlimited flexibility (within legality) with regard to what you can invest in. Now, I know many employees just sort of adopt an "autopilot" attitude and don't pay much attention to their retirement account investments, but that's on them for ignoring this stuff. (The lack of general financial literacy, in the US at least, continues to disappoint me.) So: yes, there are some people who don't have much of a say in how their retirement fund is invested, but my feeling is that those people are a small minority. I do think a large number (perhaps even a majority) of people do have the ability to direct their retirement investments, but either don't know they can do it, or can't be bothered. Again, though, that's on them for not educating themselves and playing a more active role in their financial future.
      - Danox 2mo ago
        You can roll it over into such a plan when you’re still working for the company you’re at, but you have to take it upon yourself to do so they don’t volunteer that information. Most of the people in my design department didn’t bother to roll it over to such an account they just kept it in the original account.
    - Danox 2mo ago
      You can, but you have to take it upon yourself most of investment companies handling such plans. Don’t like to volunteer that information.
dragontamer 2mo ago
The typical "investor" is an ETF these days. Your standard SPY or VTI investor doesn't know jack diddly squat about shareholder rights, nor do they ever plan to invoke them.
- DaedalusII 2mo ago
  you should have a look at proxy firms. you would be surprised
  - dragontamer 2mo ago
    Could you explain to me how an investor owning SPY shares gets to control the proxy vote? Oh, don't worry. I already know the answer. I'm asking if YOU can tell me the answer.
    - mpalczewski 2mo ago
      You can buy IVV instead and get the same exposure but this time you get to vote. Or you could just not own spy and buy the shares individually.
      - dragontamer 2mo ago
        What 401k program do you or your peers have that allows you to buy funds outside of the few, selected by the 401k manager? I certainly can't buy individual shares in my 401k program. And very, very few programs I'm aware of ever offered that as an option.
        mpalczewski 2mo ago
        they typically offer a brokerage option. fidelity and vanguard both offered this when I had them. if that wasn't on the table I'd roll it into something that gave me flexibility.
        2mo ago
janderson215 2mo ago
I agree many buy because of the governance structure and founders retaining control, but there is a lot of dumb money out there. From Claude via stockanalysis.com: META — institutions 67.51%, insiders 13.49%, float 2.19B of 2.54B shares outstanding. That leaves roughly 19% as retail/other. SPCX — institutions 5.95%, insiders 46.47%, float only 638.65M of 13.17B shares. Residual is ~47.6%, but that is not retail.
dgellow 2mo ago
In the case of Spacex that's literally not the case, when private investors bought shares the company was already a decade old and had a single class of shares. It's only since the IPO that the company switched to a dual structure, multiple years after private investors bought in. And class-B shares have only been given to Elon and a few of his friends.
- miohtama 2mo ago
  The private investors were free to sue or arbitrage, as it is a private matter. There were disputes around SpaceX secondary market/special purpose vehicle shares before the listing, but they were all settled out of court, AFAIK.
- timmmmmmay 2mo ago
  SpaceX has had multiple share classes the entire time, what are you talking about? pre-IPO there was a third Class C with no voting rights at all, these got converted to Class A
  - dgellow 2mo ago
    Do you have any source on this? That doesn’t match what I can find
    - inemesitaffia 2mo ago
      This is well known stuff. Look for articles about SpaceX ownership pre 2024 Here's an article from 2023 https://www.euronews.com/business/2023/09/06/did-elon-musk-loan-money-from-spacex-to-pay-for-twitter https://www.euronews.com/business/2023/09/06/did-elon-musk-l... It's worth asking you where you conceived this claim and what happens with the similar ones
notfromhere 2mo ago
The value of the company and lapses in governance have nothing to do with each other. One does not disprove the other

by jdross 2mo ago

NuclearPM 2mo ago

> Any shareholder is buying in fully aware of the governance structure. This is laughable. Many shareholders don’t even know they own stock in these companies.

andsoitis 2mo ago
That’s an indictment on them. You should know where you’re putting your money and why. If you delegate this to a professional or influencer, you do not get to blame them. After all, you could just buy something you think you understand better like real estate or keep it in cash.
- CamperBob2 2mo ago
  Exactly. If nothing else, you should know who you're supporting. Many people wouldn't support SpaceX and Tesla if they knew more about Musk. Conversely, some other people who don't know much about him might want to support his companies.
- StilesCrisis 2mo ago
  You don't get much of a say in how your retirement fund is invested.
  - kelnos 2mo ago
    How true is that these days? Sure, old-school pension funds are managed without any input from the future pensioners, but most 401ks (and similar) these days have a variety of investment options that the employee can choose from. Yes, there are some that have extremely limited options, but I'm not sure how common those are. And once you've left the company and roll those 401ks over into IRAs, you can put them at whatever financial institution you want, many of which have more or less unlimited flexibility (within legality) with regard to what you can invest in. Now, I know many employees just sort of adopt an "autopilot" attitude and don't pay much attention to their retirement account investments, but that's on them for ignoring this stuff. (The lack of general financial literacy, in the US at least, continues to disappoint me.) So: yes, there are some people who don't have much of a say in how their retirement fund is invested, but my feeling is that those people are a small minority. I do think a large number (perhaps even a majority) of people do have the ability to direct their retirement investments, but either don't know they can do it, or can't be bothered. Again, though, that's on them for not educating themselves and playing a more active role in their financial future.
    - Danox 2mo ago
      You can roll it over into such a plan when you’re still working for the company you’re at, but you have to take it upon yourself to do so they don’t volunteer that information. Most of the people in my design department didn’t bother to roll it over to such an account they just kept it in the original account.
  - Danox 2mo ago
    You can, but you have to take it upon yourself most of investment companies handling such plans. Don’t like to volunteer that information.

dragontamer 2mo ago

The typical "investor" is an ETF these days. Your standard SPY or VTI investor doesn't know jack diddly squat about shareholder rights, nor do they ever plan to invoke them.

DaedalusII 2mo ago
you should have a look at proxy firms. you would be surprised
- dragontamer 2mo ago
  Could you explain to me how an investor owning SPY shares gets to control the proxy vote? Oh, don't worry. I already know the answer. I'm asking if YOU can tell me the answer.
  - mpalczewski 2mo ago
    You can buy IVV instead and get the same exposure but this time you get to vote. Or you could just not own spy and buy the shares individually.
    - dragontamer 2mo ago
      What 401k program do you or your peers have that allows you to buy funds outside of the few, selected by the 401k manager? I certainly can't buy individual shares in my 401k program. And very, very few programs I'm aware of ever offered that as an option.
      - mpalczewski 2mo ago
        they typically offer a brokerage option. fidelity and vanguard both offered this when I had them. if that wasn't on the table I'd roll it into something that gave me flexibility.
        2mo ago

janderson215 2mo ago

I agree many buy because of the governance structure and founders retaining control, but there is a lot of dumb money out there. From Claude via stockanalysis.com: META — institutions 67.51%, insiders 13.49%, float 2.19B of 2.54B shares outstanding. That leaves roughly 19% as retail/other. SPCX — institutions 5.95%, insiders 46.47%, float only 638.65M of 13.17B shares. Residual is ~47.6%, but that is not retail.

dgellow 2mo ago

In the case of Spacex that's literally not the case, when private investors bought shares the company was already a decade old and had a single class of shares. It's only since the IPO that the company switched to a dual structure, multiple years after private investors bought in. And class-B shares have only been given to Elon and a few of his friends.

miohtama 2mo ago
The private investors were free to sue or arbitrage, as it is a private matter. There were disputes around SpaceX secondary market/special purpose vehicle shares before the listing, but they were all settled out of court, AFAIK.
timmmmmmay 2mo ago
SpaceX has had multiple share classes the entire time, what are you talking about? pre-IPO there was a third Class C with no voting rights at all, these got converted to Class A
- dgellow 2mo ago
  Do you have any source on this? That doesn’t match what I can find
  - inemesitaffia 2mo ago
    This is well known stuff. Look for articles about SpaceX ownership pre 2024 Here's an article from 2023 https://www.euronews.com/business/2023/09/06/did-elon-musk-loan-money-from-spacex-to-pay-for-twitter https://www.euronews.com/business/2023/09/06/did-elon-musk-l... It's worth asking you where you conceived this claim and what happens with the similar ones

notfromhere 2mo ago

The value of the company and lapses in governance have nothing to do with each other. One does not disprove the other