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Police concerned with Apple iOS 6 mapping system

361 points by bmmayer1 14y ago

shimms 14y ago
Unrelated to the content of the post, but humorous that they get the capitalisation of "iOS" correct, but consistently spell iPhone "i-phone".
jws 14y ago
GPS navigation systems have already killed: http://www.npr.org/2011/07/26/137646147/the-gps-a-fatally-misleading-travel-companion http://www.npr.org/2011/07/26/137646147/the-gps-a-fatally-mi... Rangers are frustrated by having defunct roads or paths in GPS navigation systems as roads and having no way to get them removed. I was traveling in Death Valley recently, and the span of "unpaved road" ran from "better than my driveway" to "I could try, but there is a 50-50 chance this rented jeep[1] isn't coming back." EOM [1] If you pass through, spend a day, rent a jeep. Don't do that to your own tires. The rental guy will tell you where to go to see the things you want to see.
- afterburner 14y ago
  I sort of had this problem around the Great Salt Lake; my TomTom app gave me directions using unpaved dirt roads that were actually closed. At least there were closed, with gates, only 10 minutes into the bad route.
- jmspring 14y ago
  I know the rental guy, he will most likely direct you towards things that he feels are safe for you to reach. In the last two years, he has had people more familiar with the the back country and renting the jeeps for multiple days. It took a little getting used to for him -- there is a risk involved. We spent most of a week in areas where you do not see any people. In Death Valley, with elevations below sea level, a little bit of rain can cause standing water on roads where people don't expect it. Heck, Inyo County throws up "road closed" signs just based on the amount of rain not based on road conditions. Park rangers, county road crews, etc. in remote areas need to cater to those that really don't think about what they are getting themselves into.
- fleitz 14y ago
  Might be passing through Death Valley over Christmas, wanted to head out to Racetrack Playa, any recommendations on the closest place to rent a jeep? Was planning on winging it but figured a recommendation or two might help. I'm from BC and usually when I'm out in the back country I'll pick up a forest service map, are there similar maps for Death Valley?
  - jmspring 14y ago
    For jeep rental, the best place to rent from is: http://www.farabeesjeeprentals.com http://www.farabeesjeeprentals.com For maps, the NPS site is your first stop: http://www.nps.gov/deva/index.htm http://www.nps.gov/deva/index.htm The specific back country road map is: http://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/upload/Backcountry%20Roads-2.pdf http://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/upload/Backcountry%20R... If you want specific details and more information, contact me directly. I can give you more detail, depending on your experience/desires.
    - fleitz 14y ago
      Thanks so much, same username on twitter?
      - jmspring 14y ago
        Twitter is fine (same alias, though gmail is better)
  - jws 14y ago
    Talk to Farabee (check first, I think he closes during the hottest part of summer). There is an abandoned mining site along the way to the racetrack that is nice (bring a flashlight, but someone sometimes leaves one in the shack). He'll also tell you where to stop to get AT&T coverage. Strange little spot where for some reason there is cell signal. A nice spot to check in with your family. The moving rocks are mostly down on the far end of the racetrack, don't despair if you start looking on the wrong end. Distance is a bit deceptive, you can easily walk all around the racetrack.
- rdl 14y ago
  Also, dear god, put a couple cases of bottled water in your car. I do that even when driving around the Bay Area (if nothing else, $0.10/bottle water vs. $1.50/bottle water at the gas station is a win), but it was weird being in SW NV seeing people with absolutely no preparations in their car.
  - awj 14y ago
    Bottled water, a blanket or two, food that stores well, and a first aid kit. None of that takes up a lot of space, and it could easily save your life. Plus just about all of it is handy to have around for non-emergency needs anyways.
    - rdl 14y ago
      A flashlight and a reflective vest or jacket also helps. (I also have flares, a tool kit including jumper cables and patches, but that might be overkill.)
      - awj 14y ago
        Not really, depending on where you are. I live in the pacific northwest, there's some long lonely stretches of road required to go see some of the awesome sights out here. Plus for me flares, jumper cables, and patches all store in the spare tire area anyways.
  - genwin 14y ago
    Even better, use a multi-gallon reusable water container, if it'll be used repeatedly.
    - rdl 14y ago
      Doesn't work as well in a car, in my experience (I have a fair bit of experience with being in the desert, cars breaking down or being destroyed, etc.) Opening and closing the container leads to contamination, and consequently it is generally "emergency only" use, vs. something you use routinely (and thus maintain automatically). If you end up having to walk some distance, you can't really take the container comfortably, vs. throwing some bottles into whatever bag or pockets you have. I like bottles because they fit in cupholders, and it's easy to give out bottles of water to people (e.g. a broken down other car, or someone injured, or drunk people after a party, or whatever). A case of water is $3-5 from Costco.
- davidw 14y ago
  > GPS navigation systems have already killed: I think that's a bit of hyperbole: people relying 100% on a GPS/map/whatever when they should have used their heads a bit more is what got the boy in the article killed. Doesn't look safe? You're not prepared? Turn around! Don't go into places like that without a full tank of gas, plenty of water, some food, and if it's cold out, some sleeping bags/blankets.
001sky 14y ago
Police concerned with Apple iOS 6 mapping system -- You should never blindly follow consumer-level GPS. Full stop. Especially in remote areas/national parks/widerness areas. Hate to say this is "common sense", but really it should be. It really has nothing to do with Apple, the iPhone, or iOS. Its quite the opposite, there are errors on all sorts of digitized maps. Most people are not aware or the vintage of the underlying mapping data (pre-digitization) and the variances of map-set data even amonst variant databases of "real maps".
- akent 14y ago
  ~70 kilometres is quite a "variance".
  - 001sky 14y ago
    There are alot of areas where just 5-10-or-50 meters could easily put you off a precipice, though
- enneff 14y ago
  No "real map" would have this error because of the human element: you wouldn't plot a town where there isn't one, particularly if you were also responsible for plotting the roads of the town. This is a data processing problem. Someone's algorithm screwed up and they didn't bother to have people sanity check the results.
  - Anechoic 14y ago
    you wouldn't plot a town where there isn't one It happens. About 12-13 years ago, a colleague and I were driving around Ohio to document landuse near a freight railroad line. The maps we had (USGS, AAA maps and local street maps) indicated a small town in one location, but when we drove there, there was nothing, no remnants, no anything. When we got back to the office, we looked into it- turns out the town had been wiped out by a flood a few years earlier and the decision was made to disincorporate the town instead of rebuild. That town appeared on maps that were printed after it was abandoned. Perhaps this doesn't happen anymore with more recent mapping techniques/technology, but it's not unheard of.
rymith 14y ago
I'm curious how this differs from an outdated paper map.
- akent 14y ago
  The location was shown ~70 km from where it actually is. Even an outdated map would get it closer than that.
  - rymith 14y ago
    Perhaps, I don't know. That's why I'm curious.
    - batiudrami 14y ago
      Well, towns don't change location. So if it was merely outdated, at worst it wouldn't be on the map. If the map was wrong then there's no difference, but you should be asking why your map of choice shows a town 70km away from where it actually is.
      - rymith 14y ago
        Not even a little accurate. I live in the great white north. Most Canadians live within 300km of the 49th parallel. Once we take out this southern belt, it means you have a country the size of the United States with about 10 million people, so the distance between towns is much more than it used to be. Now with -40 winters, between temporary roads used for oil rigs, frozen lakes in which we use as roads, derelict towns that are now ghost towns due to everyone migrating to the city, defunct reserves, etc... A paper map made 10 years ago can get you killed just as easy as an iOS, Google, or Tom Tom one can. We frequently lose people to the cold all the time. My Dad lost one of his best friends and his wife last year, and they weren't using a GPS.
wilfra 14y ago
Change title from 'Police' to 'State Police in Victoria, Australia' please. Title is misleading/linkbaity.
- jval 14y ago
  Sorry mate, but Victoria is not a 'small Australian city'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_(Australia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_(Australia)
  - enneff 14y ago
    Victoria isn't a city at all, it's a state. But it's the Mildura police that issued this warning. Mildura is certainly a small town.
    - jval 14y ago
      Without this degenerating into an argument over semantics, by that line of reasoning any police officer would simply be a 'police officer in a small neighbourhood police station' no matter how large the police body is. The warning was issued by Victoria Police members and is on the Victoria Police website, I don't see there being any issue with its credibility.
      - wilfra 14y ago
        There is no problem with the credibility of the article - the problem is with the sensationalist/linkbaiting headline. Most people are going to assume upon reading the title that 'Police' refers to something a bit more substantial than the police force of Mildura, Australia.
        skeletonjelly 14y ago
        They represent the state police force as a whole.
      - mycheekyangel 14y ago
jyap 14y ago
As a former Victorian now living in the US, I think it's apt to point out that 46 degrees Celsius is 114.8 degrees Fahrenheit and 70 kilometers is 43.495 miles.
- jerf 14y ago
  Unless you really think the police were being precise to within a meter (Google says .001 mile =~ 1.6 meters), it's "about 115F" and "about 40 miles", respectively. (Got a bit unlucky on the miles, I'd also consider "about 45".)
  - vacri 14y ago
    You generally shouldn't increase the number of significant digits by more than one anyway, even if you are after a precise measurement.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
bmmayer1 14y ago
*is stranding
- kaptain 14y ago
  Yes, changing the title would help clarify the content of the article. At first I thought the police had an issue with the concept of the iOS 6 mapping feature (e.g. privacy issues). Despite the terseness of the article, the issue engenders mixed feelings of sympathy and bemusement.
dhughes 14y ago
I have to admit that occasionally during whiteout snowstorms I glance at my GPS more as moral support that I am indeed on a road. Telephone poles are also a good guide if I can see them.
- scoot 14y ago
  occasionally during whiteout snowstorms I glance at my GPS more as moral support that I am indeed on a road In which case you need to be aware that GPS is generally only accurate to within tens of meters (sometimes worse), and your satnav will pin you to to the road it thinks you should be on, even if your computed position disagrees (as you will have noticed if you've ever taken a different route to that which your satnav is recommending).
  - dhughes 14y ago
    I'm aware. It's far worse than that in my region most roads in my area are wrong, I tried to submit the errors to the two largest mapping companies but no dice. The errors I mentioned are at least five years old and still have not been corrected yet!
enneff 14y ago
(Disclosure: I work for Google, but not in anything to do with maps. These opinions are my own.) I've been to this national park before. It's a beautiful place, but not one you want to get stuck in unprepared. The temperature estimates given by the police are accurate. It gets damn hot out there. The roads are gravel at best, and often just packed dirt or sand. You can very easily get bogged, if you don't know what you are doing. I got to a point where the road became unsuitable for my car, and I had to drive backwards for nearly 100 metres to get out as there was nowhere to turn. I would be concerned for inexperienced drivers with two-wheel-drive vehicles. Map data is serious business, and this particular case is an egregious error.
- startupfounder 14y ago
  Jobs is turning in his grave and would have had none of this. Little details collect like snowflakes and create avalanches if not put in check.
  - Alaskan005 14y ago
    "Jobs is turning in his grave and..." He was cremated and he wasn't above screwing up.
    - Vivtek 14y ago
      But when he did screw up, he yelled at people until it was fixed - instead of sitting on his thumbs while desanguinating from a thousand paper cuts.
      - seunosewa 14y ago
        What makes you think Tim Cook is sitting on his thumbs. Did he not fire two top-level execs over the maps fiasco?
        chris_wot 14y ago
        Looks like that's effectively solved their maps problem.
jasonlingx 14y ago
Please can we switch back to Google maps now?
- ra 14y ago
  Oh man I wish Apple would just get over themselves and allow it in the app store. I've started carrying around my Nexus 7 in addition to my iphone just because of maps. If iOS maps isn't seriously fixed by the time my contract is out, there's no way I'd by another iphone.
  - lostlogin 14y ago
    Is it Apple that not letting it into the App Store? I thought that this was just speculation? The reason maps changed was, as I understood it, not just due to Apple, as google wouldn't give access to 'the good data' - vector based maps.
  - taligent 14y ago
    According to TechCrunch, Google was hoping to have it submitted by Christmas. There is NO evidence that Apple is blocking it from the store.
    - rdtsc 14y ago
      Exactly. This is really Apple's loss at this point. As more stories like these accumulate, there will be a good number of users who will think twice before jumping in and buying an Apple device. Getting stuck in a bad part of a city, getting lost on some unpaved road at night in a national park, is many people's nightmare. At this point many don't even carry paper maps or if they did they probably couldn't use it effectively.
- randomdata 14y ago
  Google Maps on my iPhone has tried to send me down roads buried in several feet of snow (no winter maintenance road) before. Switching back to Google Maps doesn't make this sort of problem magically go away.
deleted 14y ago
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robomartin 14y ago
Interestingly enough, today I was having a conversation about whether or not Maps had made any real improvements. You know, the kind that might compel one to finally upgrade to iOS6 or even consider upgrading to an iPhone 5. I asked a few people and nearly all of them expressed concern about being able to trust Maps. News like this doesn't make one feel better at all. Frankly, I don't understand Apple's decision in the context of the idea of being customer-focused. In other words, if you, as an organization, make decisions for the benefit of your customers --or, at the very least not to their detriment-- how can you justify pushing out Maps and not keeping Google Maps on there? OK, I get it. It would have cost more. A lot more. Fine. That's your problem. Pay Google for another five years exactly because you care about your customers. At the same time, put out your own Maps app and --funny enough-- compete on the merits of the app, not the hype. If in five years you can't turn Maps into an app that people will choose over Google Maps, then, well, why are you in the mapping business in the first place?
- iaw 14y ago
  Agreed. It's especially egregious because this functionality can potentially endanger the lives of customers while opening up liability suits (not a lawyer, just guessing). Anyone know how much it would've cost to keep google maps?
  - jopt 14y ago
    It's probably not just a dollar figure; the terms have to be favourable concerning user data etc.
- ceol 14y ago
  The only way for Maps to get better is for people to report errors. If they release it alongside Google's version and no one uses it, no one will report errors, so it would never get better, and so on. Just two years ago I had Google Maps send me a few miles in the wrong direction and plant me in the middle of an unfinished housing development when I wanted to go to a shopping mall. It was a mistake, I reported it, and it was eventually fixed. It's not as bad as getting stranded in the middle of a national park, but a) It should be obvious that the middle of a national park isn't where a town is supposed to be, and b) If it's not obvious because you are a tourist, maybe you shouldn't be blindly trusting your Maps app and only having enough gas to make it to town?
simonlang 14y ago
This reminds me of a recent story where some tourists tried to drive their rental car to an island (through the ocean) because their GPS told them to: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/travel-news/taking-the-most-direct-route-to-straddie-20120315-1v85m.html http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/travel-news/taking-th...
georgeorwell 14y ago
We can all agree that the police are doing a good job by warning people about the problem, right?
duncan_bayne 14y ago
I live in Australia, and while I am not a fan of Apple or their products,I have to say that I'm surprised anyone in their right mind would go bush with just one map. Electronic or paper, maps have errors. Don't bet your life otherwise.
- mwill 14y ago
  Mildura isn't really going bush, depending on where you're coming from. I'd (before this article) be pretty comfortable following phone directions from say Bendigo to Mildura, which should just be a straight run down Calder Hwy. It seems pretty reasonable to use it to find a route between two cities/towns, which I've done in WA a few times with Google Maps. Though I'll admit I've never used turn by turn for that, rather just got the broad strokes. Is this a problem with turn by turn directions, or is Mildura actually in the wrong place on ios6 maps? EDIT: Took a look, seems like Mildura is actually marked at the wrong location, which is significantly worse imo.
  - enneff 14y ago
    Indeed. Here's the road you should be taking: http://goo.gl/maps/QbZ88 http://goo.gl/maps/QbZ88 And this is the kind of road that Apple's maps send you down: http://goo.gl/maps/CdCjh http://goo.gl/maps/CdCjh
  - duncan_bayne 14y ago
    Wow, holy hell. I admit I skimmed TFA; I'd assumed that the folks got lost somewhere in the bush _near_ Mildura. That's just not good.
jmgrimes 14y ago
I wonder if the big players can improve the quality of their maps by implementing wiki-style editing systems like OpenStreetMap. Google seem to have already started down this path with the Map Maker functionality. http://www.google.com.au/mapmaker http://www.google.com.au/mapmaker
- aw3c2 14y ago
  Map Maker is not really wiki-style. At least for me wiki means that you get your data out in a more of less raw form. With Map Maker you add vector data and get pictures in return. A drastic reduction in usability to me. You cannot export your data from Map Maker. You only feed Google with it.
bitsweet 14y ago
I love my iPhone, MBP, iPad, and how generally apple has raised the bar on software quality. But the maps app is truly intolerable - it's the most unusable thing apple released since ping, maybe even more so.
- jarcoal 14y ago
  I think it's highly usable, just not useful :)
MetalMASK 14y ago
The map failure is just another example of where apple's design principle cannot be blindly applied to every product. Apple's top-down approach on software design is expected to fail on Maps. Maps put hard requirement on data, bottom data, nothing to do with your leader's vision. Apple's way out of this is not to engage user input to add missing data or correct data errors --OSM tried that for years, the most accurate data still comes from semi-professional survey-er. Look at other companies that does map, google map started out using Tele Atlas, NavTeq serves yahoo, bing and mapquest. Let's face it, spatial data cost money to collect and even more costly to update/maintain. Nevteq and Tele Atlas are gigantic companies for serving basic spatial data for a reason. I guess apple didn't do sufficient data QA before saying, "hell yeah we are going with OSM where every big player is going with commercial data." Without a solid baseline data, any fancy pants software development would just evaporate in air. I have to say though, the GUI for apple map and functionality has very high usability. Apple just need to adapt a different mindset when dealing with data-dependent applications. (disclaimer: I am a PhD student in Geography with CS background, did my share of processing spatial data for the last 8 years)
- jopt 14y ago
  What's the disclaimer for? If we keep doing disclaimers wrong like this nobody will ever pay them any attention.
  - jrajav 14y ago
    I was about to say - seems like more of a claimer to me.
  - epa 14y ago
    Credibility and not anti-apple spam
  - MetalMASK 14y ago
    sorry, just saying that I actually work in the field, not just a bystander saying apple is evil. I would be very happy if OSM in the end works(which I believe it will, just need at least a couple of more years); I would also be happy if apple map were able to fix the problem--which, as I pointed out, is the under-emphasized data issue.
djt 14y ago
It is quite common for tourists to get into trouble here in Australia due to the differences in climate etc too. FYI, when you travel make sure to bring extra clothes, water and food. Australia is a massive land mass and it is hard to fathom for people form a lot of countries that it can be a very harsh place for the unprepared. http://blog.australian-native.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/australiamap.jpg http://blog.australian-native.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009... Never have a single point of failure. A paper map or extra GPS at the bare minimum.
thisrod 14y ago
I'm intrigued that the police let this happen five times, and then put out a press release. After the second time in two weeks, I would have put up a sign: "This is not the road to Mildura. Go back and turn left at the highway."
- isleyaardvark 14y ago
  "Your iPhone is wrong" would be more effective.
jmspring 14y ago
Even before the iOS 6 maps debacle, relying on GPS for guidance in places like National Parks was pretty dumb. There are multiple stories of people getting stranded (and even dying) when relying on maps for places like Death Valley. Often times, even if one is in a suitable vehicle, knowledge of the environment, what to do in case of a problem, etc. are essential necessities in the case of anything going wrong. A buddy and I travel the back country of Death Valley regularly and the stories we have heard, the vehicles we have seen trying to go places they shouldn't, etc. are just amazing. At a certain point, however, common sense and personal responsibility need to be considered.
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  Its not like bad map data on a free service can start a war, oh wait it can get that bad.[1] [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/nov/15/google-map-dispute-nicaragua http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/nov/15/google-map-...
guscost 14y ago
"Anyone travelling to Mildura or other locations within Victoria should rely on other forms of mapping until this matter is rectified. Like Google Maps." Explication mine.
prawn 14y ago
Recently drove a 4,500 km trip in Australia, including near Mildura. We relied on two iPhones, one with Google Maps and one with Apple's newer version. For the most part, we relied on Google's maps and they never failed. Occasionally, we switched to iOS 6 and had a few different problems including roads simply not existing. After a while, we'd watch the iOS 6 directions just for a laugh. Some of the stretches further East of Mildura run 100-200km without petrol stations and supplies. A number of the national parks in those areas are unmanned and irregularly visited, and there can be long periods even on sealed roads where you might not sight another car in an hour of driving. For one stretch (in and out of Mungo National Park), we stocked up on a lot of extra water as a precaution and notified family of our plans. Having an infant with us, I was very conscious of how quickly the temperature can rise once the air-con is off. Can easily see how people might blindly follow maps/GPS and end up caught out. Especially when you're relying on cached phone maps data if your connection drops, as it does frequently out there.
- rytis 14y ago
  I never rely on a phone whilst traveling (driving, cycling, hiking). When driving I mostly use built in car GPS or take a secondary dash mount GPS for longer journeys. When on feet I use one primary eTrex with maps, and always have a cheap secondary hand held GPS without the maps. Plus a paper map. And a set of extra AA batteries. Google search, maps and other good things you have on a smartphone are nice, but it's way too unreliable to my taste. Battery life is crap, and without a connection the phone is pretty useless, unless you use a mapping app that can download map data. In which case I'd rather use a dedicated mapping device. EDIT: Obviously all the equipment can't replace common sense. If you see you can't go any further - don't. Even if all your electronic devices tell you otherwise.
  - wildranter 14y ago
    Don't forget to pack a compass next time. If you ever run out of batteries just the map isn't enought to provide precise directions.
  - arethuza 14y ago
    "Plus a paper map" I'd never go anywhere risky without a paper map and conventional compass - I actually rarely use a GPS when out on the hill because I want to keep my navigation skills reasonably sharp. I generally only use a GPS device to confirm decisions I've already made in rather "tricky" situations.
oohmeplums 14y ago
It looks like this issue was caused by Apple mistakenly marking the centre of Local Government Areas as 'cities', in Australia at least. See example at http://imgur.com/qlciM http://imgur.com/qlciM for an example from Perth; Cambridge and Vincent aren't suburbs, and the others are in the wrong spot (Joondalup CBD is on the wrong side of the freeway)
- mambodog 14y ago
  A more glaring issue with Apple's map of Perth to my mind is that Fremantle Harbour has been completely filled in. See the bottom left of this Google map for comparison: http://i.imgur.com/GsmxQ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/GsmxQ.jpg
Pinatubo 14y ago
James Kim died just about 6 years ago. A lot of people blamed a GPS failure for his death, but apparently he and his family were using paper maps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim
SyneRyder 14y ago
I think I can explain this one - if I'm right, Apple already has the correct data, but is using it incorrectly. One of the Apple Maps data sources is GeoNames (geonames.org), a free data source available under a Creative Commons Attribution license and also used with the search on OpenStreetMap. If you search for Mildura at OpenStreetMap (openstreetmap.org) you'll get the correct location of the town, but if you scroll down the GeoNames list you'll also be offered "Mildura Shire" as a search option. Click on that, and the pointer moves to a location similar to the Apple Maps screenshot, about 70km away from the actual town. It seems that's the location that Apple's search has chosen to prioritize, over the actual town. Mildura Shire is listed in GeoNames as a "second-order administrative division", so it's probably similar to the middle of a county or council area. This isn't a problem with datasets or incorrect data, it's a problem with how Apple is searching & prioritizing the correct data they already have. Choosing the "town" instead of the "second-order administrative division" would be appropriate here. For what it's worth, GeoNames already prioritizes the town of Mildura correctly in their search engine.
- saurik 14y ago
  Something similar happens with Santa Barbara, but the results differ if you ask for driving directions or a normal search. A search for "Santa Barbara" returns the city, but if you ask for directions to "Santa Barbara" you are instead directed to a mountain range, probably because "Santa Barbara" is also the name of the county, which is fairly large and includes a lot of empty regions. (If you use "Santa Barbara, CA" instead, you deterministically get directed to the city.)
- akent 14y ago
  Nice sleuthing, but if that were the case wouldn't the same problem be seen more broadly?
  - SyneRyder 14y ago
    You can see it more broadly, at least in Australia. I've been going through some of the examples listed at this blog: http://www.unsanelygreat.com/blog/2012/6/24/google-maps-vs-apple-maps.html http://www.unsanelygreat.com/blog/2012/6/24/google-maps-vs-a... Many don't line up with GeoNames data, but they do appear to be cases where a town name clashes with the name of a local council area, and Apple Maps have chosen the council area instead. Wanneroo is another example here: http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/post/32038150409/wanneroo-perth-western-australia-apple-maps-has http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/post/32038150409/wanner...
readme 14y ago
So, no, it's not good that apple's map data is inaccurate. But the title might be misleading. The bottom line is if you're driving into a wilderness area like a national park, you should not be depending on your cell phone for your own safety. One of the first things they tell you if you read the pamphlet outside of a hiking area is: do not depend on you cell phone. So sure, the map data is inaccurate. The more dangerous thing about this is that your battery has a finite lifespan. Also your signal is not guaranteed. You need to bring water, you need to bring supplies. You need to bring warm clothing. Seriously.
- dools 14y ago
  The bottom line is if you're driving into a wilderness area like a national park, you should not be depending on your cell phone for your own safety Mildura isn't a wilderness area, it's just a town in regional Victoria. The point is that this thing is taking people saying they want to go to Mildura (which is a town, not a wilderness area or a national park) and sending them into a national park with no infrastructure. These aren't people who have decided to "go hiking", they are just visiting a regional town centre.
- Cogito 14y ago
  Maybe it wasn't obvious to you from the article, but the issue here is that the maps direct you into a national park instead of Mildura, a nice little Victorian town. These people getting lost are not intending to drive "into a wilderness area like a national park", but were led into one by mistaken data. Yes, you could presume that the signs you were going the wrong way might be self evident after a little while, but if someone had literally no idea where Mildura was then they could easily end up in the middle of this national park assuming their iPhone was simply taking them the long way 'round. As they have no other choice they keep following the maps until they get to where they have been directed, only to find themselves in the middle of nowhere with no help and no reception. This is a serious problem, and the map data needs to be fixed.
  - onedev 14y ago
    So you're telling me they ignored every sign that told them they were entering a national park? 5 different groups of people managed to not even have a tiny bit of skepticism?
dchichkov 14y ago
Was driving from SF to Big Sur some time back. Google totally tried to take me off road from HW 1 [turn right. turn right now], and then calmly stated "There is no route to your destination".
- RyJones 14y ago
  Google Maps is frequently broken around the thinly-populated Seattle metro area. I've filed bug after bug, to no avail; in the end, I stopped using it altogether. It cannot handle the I90 express lanes in either direction; getting directions to somewhere on Mercer Island from Seattle when you're on the express lanes eastbound gets a route to Bellevue, turn around, and come back. No, that's OK, I'll take one of the Mercer Island exits, thank you. Furthermore, the transit integration is so broken as to be useless. Asking for a route from Kirkland to the Seattle federal building gives you a bus route to downtown Kirkland (the post office, actually). The POIs in that area are AFU.
WestCoastJustin 14y ago
Here is a horror story about a couple from my province that "became stuck in a remote area when their GPS system led them on to a back road" [1]. [1] http://www.usaprepares.com/survival/husband-died-just-six-miles-from-help-after-he-and-wife-got-lost-in-wild-because-of-gps-he-died-trying-to-raise-alarm-but-she-survived-for-seven-weeks-by-staying-put http://www.usaprepares.com/survival/husband-died-just-six-mi...
assharif 14y ago
This never would have happened if Steve Jobs was alive
jstclair 14y ago
I had to go to the main emergency room in Oslo last week. iOS6 couldn't find it, or even the correct street. Looking at the map in detail later, it didn't even have a building at the correct location. I was furious.
- kanamekun 14y ago
  Did you find it on the Google Map website/web app?
  - jstclair 14y ago
    Yep; on the first try. Unfortunately, I was trying to drive my son (who had broken his arm) and the Google driving directions would only display the list mode, rather than on the map. I ended up finding the building on Google Maps, then dropping a pin on iOS Maps, and using the turn-by-turn. All-in-all a stressful experience
    - bruceboughton 14y ago
      How would you have found your way there 5 years ago?
    - nasmorn 14y ago
      Why didn't you call an ambulance? When I worked for the redcross during civil service I always wondered why we have patients with nose bleed or some other bubu to drive in and then we take back some guy with a broken leg or life threatning pneumonia that got in himself.
      - jstclair 14y ago
        Actually, my big mistake was not keeping the taxi I'd taken from work (normally, I take the tram & train) to pick him up at school. He was in pain, but not anything I'd consider taking the ambulance for (and the driving distance from his school to the emergency room is ~2-3 km). I shouldn't have gotten my car, and instead just have dumped him into the taxi. Norway covers a share of the taxi fare when it's for medical reasons.
mattquiros 14y ago
Can't help noticing how those who've never had problems with Apple Maps are usually people from the US. The iPhone is sold in other parts of the world too, you know.
- pthreadses 14y ago
  Actually I've noticed quite the opposite. At least in the more populated parts of Europe, in my experience Apple Maps does fine and in some cases does better than Google Maps (in my home city of Berlin I find Apple Maps to have been an improvement, primarily in the department of Apple Maps "knowing what it doesn't know" where as Google seems to guess and be wrong. Also, transit. Google is terrible for transit in Europe). I recently used Apple Maps to roadtrip through Germany and Austria, and it worked without a single hiccup. This summer I had the beta running in Switzerland and it was fine. In the darker corners of Europe, well, I'll just say in Belgrade iOS maps literally had nothing but a pin. No streets at all. So it seems wildly dependent on where you are.
hnruss 14y ago
Whatever happened to reading road signs? They are actually pretty easy to use.
Argorak 14y ago
Out of couriosity, I navigated the Kalahari with both a map and a TomTom. I was quite surprised to find that the paths were quite accurate - but shifted by roughly 5 kms. So I could use the maps, but not the navigation capabilities of the system at all.
lisperforlife 14y ago
I would pay money for a google maps app.
mtgx 14y ago
Apple's hatred towards Google is now putting people's lives at risk. Good job, Apple.
nicholassmith 14y ago
Oddly enough Google Maps got me lost before, a couple of times. Lets stop assuming Google Maps was all that and a bag of chips, it did have issues at times. I think it's because I've done long journeys powered by digital maps but I always made sure that there was an agreement level between two, or that it looked sane on a tried and tested road map. As good as they've gotten for the most part they're still prone to bugs, or to lose signal. Paper maps are a car essential still.
Mordor 14y ago
Steve Jobs was great at coming late to market with a product superior to everyone else. Time is telling of his replacement..
ck2 14y ago
So what was the death rate before iphone or any smartphone existed? What if the iphone battery dies, even with super accurate maps? I don't have a cellphone plan so I carry paper maps, I guess I am old and old fashioned.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  Not to mention smart. If you go to the outback in many areas of Australia without a map or a backup plan, you are seriously risking your life.
HannibalLecter 14y ago
I use Garmin and have never had any issues like this. Blackberry's GPS is unreliable because the phone goes out of service in wooded areas. My Garmin has never had that issue. If you're not using a GPS device for GPS, you're living with a false sense of security -- especially for a back-road country journey.
Flenser 14y ago
You should always have a road atlas in your car. Batteries run out and network connections may not be reliable, you will always have access to a paper map if you have one. If you have an atlas you can always navigate yourself out of any problem (diversions, heavy traffic, accidents closing roads etc.) and they are a good sanity check of whatever your GPS or map app is telling you. Better yet, check your route in the atlas before you set out and you will know your route better, and be able to react quicker to any unforeseen problems.
tripzilch 14y ago
I heard similar stories about Google Maps a few years ago, people getting stuck in US desert/parks because the GPS is incorrect (and also reception wasn't good back then, but that might have improved by now maybe). At least this story is hitting the HN front page. Because the park rangers were hitting Google's traditionally deaf customer service ears (which must have been super-frustrating because people had already died and/or gotten into life-threatening situations). I lost the link to that article, sorry. If I happen upon it, I'll post it here. On the one hand I suppose it's people's own fault for venturing into dangerous terrain unprepared. But on the other hand, what's the use of having GPS Maps when you don't know when it's trustworthy or not? Great effort by OpenStreetMap (read below) of cross-checking their own maps for consistency with competitor maps, is at least a step in the right direction.
davemaya 14y ago
They misplaced the main hospital in Cambridge, UK.
asc76 14y ago
They first to to get it to work properly.
djbender 14y ago
"Apple i-phone."
MagnitudeSw 14y ago
The new maps drop a major landmark on my street in Atlanta. We went from dead quiet to non-stop traffic. Not good when people are driving 30+ MPH staring at their phones in confusion. It's been 1.5 months since we've had everyone we can think of submit the problem. Still not fixed. What does it take for Apple to actually "fix" an incorrect pin location and label?

361 points by bmmayer1 14y ago

Unrelated to the content of the post, but humorous that they get the capitalisation of "iOS" correct, but consistently spell iPhone "i-phone".

jws 14y ago

GPS navigation systems have already killed: http://www.npr.org/2011/07/26/137646147/the-gps-a-fatally-misleading-travel-companion http://www.npr.org/2011/07/26/137646147/the-gps-a-fatally-mi... Rangers are frustrated by having defunct roads or paths in GPS navigation systems as roads and having no way to get them removed. I was traveling in Death Valley recently, and the span of "unpaved road" ran from "better than my driveway" to "I could try, but there is a 50-50 chance this rented jeep[1] isn't coming back." EOM [1] If you pass through, spend a day, rent a jeep. Don't do that to your own tires. The rental guy will tell you where to go to see the things you want to see.

afterburner 14y ago
I sort of had this problem around the Great Salt Lake; my TomTom app gave me directions using unpaved dirt roads that were actually closed. At least there were closed, with gates, only 10 minutes into the bad route.
jmspring 14y ago
I know the rental guy, he will most likely direct you towards things that he feels are safe for you to reach. In the last two years, he has had people more familiar with the the back country and renting the jeeps for multiple days. It took a little getting used to for him -- there is a risk involved. We spent most of a week in areas where you do not see any people. In Death Valley, with elevations below sea level, a little bit of rain can cause standing water on roads where people don't expect it. Heck, Inyo County throws up "road closed" signs just based on the amount of rain not based on road conditions. Park rangers, county road crews, etc. in remote areas need to cater to those that really don't think about what they are getting themselves into.
fleitz 14y ago
Might be passing through Death Valley over Christmas, wanted to head out to Racetrack Playa, any recommendations on the closest place to rent a jeep? Was planning on winging it but figured a recommendation or two might help. I'm from BC and usually when I'm out in the back country I'll pick up a forest service map, are there similar maps for Death Valley?
- jmspring 14y ago
  For jeep rental, the best place to rent from is: http://www.farabeesjeeprentals.com http://www.farabeesjeeprentals.com For maps, the NPS site is your first stop: http://www.nps.gov/deva/index.htm http://www.nps.gov/deva/index.htm The specific back country road map is: http://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/upload/Backcountry%20Roads-2.pdf http://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/upload/Backcountry%20R... If you want specific details and more information, contact me directly. I can give you more detail, depending on your experience/desires.
  - fleitz 14y ago
    Thanks so much, same username on twitter?
    - jmspring 14y ago
      Twitter is fine (same alias, though gmail is better)
- jws 14y ago
  Talk to Farabee (check first, I think he closes during the hottest part of summer). There is an abandoned mining site along the way to the racetrack that is nice (bring a flashlight, but someone sometimes leaves one in the shack). He'll also tell you where to stop to get AT&T coverage. Strange little spot where for some reason there is cell signal. A nice spot to check in with your family. The moving rocks are mostly down on the far end of the racetrack, don't despair if you start looking on the wrong end. Distance is a bit deceptive, you can easily walk all around the racetrack.
rdl 14y ago
Also, dear god, put a couple cases of bottled water in your car. I do that even when driving around the Bay Area (if nothing else, $0.10/bottle water vs. $1.50/bottle water at the gas station is a win), but it was weird being in SW NV seeing people with absolutely no preparations in their car.
- awj 14y ago
  Bottled water, a blanket or two, food that stores well, and a first aid kit. None of that takes up a lot of space, and it could easily save your life. Plus just about all of it is handy to have around for non-emergency needs anyways.
  - rdl 14y ago
    A flashlight and a reflective vest or jacket also helps. (I also have flares, a tool kit including jumper cables and patches, but that might be overkill.)
    - awj 14y ago
      Not really, depending on where you are. I live in the pacific northwest, there's some long lonely stretches of road required to go see some of the awesome sights out here. Plus for me flares, jumper cables, and patches all store in the spare tire area anyways.
- genwin 14y ago
  Even better, use a multi-gallon reusable water container, if it'll be used repeatedly.
  - rdl 14y ago
    Doesn't work as well in a car, in my experience (I have a fair bit of experience with being in the desert, cars breaking down or being destroyed, etc.) Opening and closing the container leads to contamination, and consequently it is generally "emergency only" use, vs. something you use routinely (and thus maintain automatically). If you end up having to walk some distance, you can't really take the container comfortably, vs. throwing some bottles into whatever bag or pockets you have. I like bottles because they fit in cupholders, and it's easy to give out bottles of water to people (e.g. a broken down other car, or someone injured, or drunk people after a party, or whatever). A case of water is $3-5 from Costco.
davidw 14y ago
> GPS navigation systems have already killed: I think that's a bit of hyperbole: people relying 100% on a GPS/map/whatever when they should have used their heads a bit more is what got the boy in the article killed. Doesn't look safe? You're not prepared? Turn around! Don't go into places like that without a full tank of gas, plenty of water, some food, and if it's cold out, some sleeping bags/blankets.

001sky 14y ago

Police concerned with Apple iOS 6 mapping system -- You should never blindly follow consumer-level GPS. Full stop. Especially in remote areas/national parks/widerness areas. Hate to say this is "common sense", but really it should be. It really has nothing to do with Apple, the iPhone, or iOS. Its quite the opposite, there are errors on all sorts of digitized maps. Most people are not aware or the vintage of the underlying mapping data (pre-digitization) and the variances of map-set data even amonst variant databases of "real maps".

akent 14y ago
~70 kilometres is quite a "variance".
- 001sky 14y ago
  There are alot of areas where just 5-10-or-50 meters could easily put you off a precipice, though
enneff 14y ago
No "real map" would have this error because of the human element: you wouldn't plot a town where there isn't one, particularly if you were also responsible for plotting the roads of the town. This is a data processing problem. Someone's algorithm screwed up and they didn't bother to have people sanity check the results.
- Anechoic 14y ago
  you wouldn't plot a town where there isn't one It happens. About 12-13 years ago, a colleague and I were driving around Ohio to document landuse near a freight railroad line. The maps we had (USGS, AAA maps and local street maps) indicated a small town in one location, but when we drove there, there was nothing, no remnants, no anything. When we got back to the office, we looked into it- turns out the town had been wiped out by a flood a few years earlier and the decision was made to disincorporate the town instead of rebuild. That town appeared on maps that were printed after it was abandoned. Perhaps this doesn't happen anymore with more recent mapping techniques/technology, but it's not unheard of.

rymith 14y ago

I'm curious how this differs from an outdated paper map.

akent 14y ago
The location was shown ~70 km from where it actually is. Even an outdated map would get it closer than that.
- rymith 14y ago
  Perhaps, I don't know. That's why I'm curious.
  - batiudrami 14y ago
    Well, towns don't change location. So if it was merely outdated, at worst it wouldn't be on the map. If the map was wrong then there's no difference, but you should be asking why your map of choice shows a town 70km away from where it actually is.
    - rymith 14y ago
      Not even a little accurate. I live in the great white north. Most Canadians live within 300km of the 49th parallel. Once we take out this southern belt, it means you have a country the size of the United States with about 10 million people, so the distance between towns is much more than it used to be. Now with -40 winters, between temporary roads used for oil rigs, frozen lakes in which we use as roads, derelict towns that are now ghost towns due to everyone migrating to the city, defunct reserves, etc... A paper map made 10 years ago can get you killed just as easy as an iOS, Google, or Tom Tom one can. We frequently lose people to the cold all the time. My Dad lost one of his best friends and his wife last year, and they weren't using a GPS.

wilfra 14y ago

Change title from 'Police' to 'State Police in Victoria, Australia' please. Title is misleading/linkbaity.

jval 14y ago
Sorry mate, but Victoria is not a 'small Australian city'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_(Australia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_(Australia)
- enneff 14y ago
  Victoria isn't a city at all, it's a state. But it's the Mildura police that issued this warning. Mildura is certainly a small town.
  - jval 14y ago
    Without this degenerating into an argument over semantics, by that line of reasoning any police officer would simply be a 'police officer in a small neighbourhood police station' no matter how large the police body is. The warning was issued by Victoria Police members and is on the Victoria Police website, I don't see there being any issue with its credibility.
    - wilfra 14y ago
      There is no problem with the credibility of the article - the problem is with the sensationalist/linkbaiting headline. Most people are going to assume upon reading the title that 'Police' refers to something a bit more substantial than the police force of Mildura, Australia.
      - skeletonjelly 14y ago
        They represent the state police force as a whole.
    - mycheekyangel 14y ago

jyap 14y ago

As a former Victorian now living in the US, I think it's apt to point out that 46 degrees Celsius is 114.8 degrees Fahrenheit and 70 kilometers is 43.495 miles.

jerf 14y ago
Unless you really think the police were being precise to within a meter (Google says .001 mile =~ 1.6 meters), it's "about 115F" and "about 40 miles", respectively. (Got a bit unlucky on the miles, I'd also consider "about 45".)
- vacri 14y ago
  You generally shouldn't increase the number of significant digits by more than one anyway, even if you are after a precise measurement.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

bmmayer1 14y ago

*is stranding

kaptain 14y ago
Yes, changing the title would help clarify the content of the article. At first I thought the police had an issue with the concept of the iOS 6 mapping feature (e.g. privacy issues). Despite the terseness of the article, the issue engenders mixed feelings of sympathy and bemusement.

dhughes 14y ago

I have to admit that occasionally during whiteout snowstorms I glance at my GPS more as moral support that I am indeed on a road. Telephone poles are also a good guide if I can see them.

scoot 14y ago
occasionally during whiteout snowstorms I glance at my GPS more as moral support that I am indeed on a road In which case you need to be aware that GPS is generally only accurate to within tens of meters (sometimes worse), and your satnav will pin you to to the road it thinks you should be on, even if your computed position disagrees (as you will have noticed if you've ever taken a different route to that which your satnav is recommending).
- dhughes 14y ago
  I'm aware. It's far worse than that in my region most roads in my area are wrong, I tried to submit the errors to the two largest mapping companies but no dice. The errors I mentioned are at least five years old and still have not been corrected yet!

enneff 14y ago

(Disclosure: I work for Google, but not in anything to do with maps. These opinions are my own.) I've been to this national park before. It's a beautiful place, but not one you want to get stuck in unprepared. The temperature estimates given by the police are accurate. It gets damn hot out there. The roads are gravel at best, and often just packed dirt or sand. You can very easily get bogged, if you don't know what you are doing. I got to a point where the road became unsuitable for my car, and I had to drive backwards for nearly 100 metres to get out as there was nowhere to turn. I would be concerned for inexperienced drivers with two-wheel-drive vehicles. Map data is serious business, and this particular case is an egregious error.

startupfounder 14y ago
Jobs is turning in his grave and would have had none of this. Little details collect like snowflakes and create avalanches if not put in check.
- Alaskan005 14y ago
  "Jobs is turning in his grave and..." He was cremated and he wasn't above screwing up.
  - Vivtek 14y ago
    But when he did screw up, he yelled at people until it was fixed - instead of sitting on his thumbs while desanguinating from a thousand paper cuts.
    - seunosewa 14y ago
      What makes you think Tim Cook is sitting on his thumbs. Did he not fire two top-level execs over the maps fiasco?
      - chris_wot 14y ago
        Looks like that's effectively solved their maps problem.

jasonlingx 14y ago

Please can we switch back to Google maps now?

ra 14y ago
Oh man I wish Apple would just get over themselves and allow it in the app store. I've started carrying around my Nexus 7 in addition to my iphone just because of maps. If iOS maps isn't seriously fixed by the time my contract is out, there's no way I'd by another iphone.
- lostlogin 14y ago
  Is it Apple that not letting it into the App Store? I thought that this was just speculation? The reason maps changed was, as I understood it, not just due to Apple, as google wouldn't give access to 'the good data' - vector based maps.
- taligent 14y ago
  According to TechCrunch, Google was hoping to have it submitted by Christmas. There is NO evidence that Apple is blocking it from the store.
  - rdtsc 14y ago
    Exactly. This is really Apple's loss at this point. As more stories like these accumulate, there will be a good number of users who will think twice before jumping in and buying an Apple device. Getting stuck in a bad part of a city, getting lost on some unpaved road at night in a national park, is many people's nightmare. At this point many don't even carry paper maps or if they did they probably couldn't use it effectively.
randomdata 14y ago
Google Maps on my iPhone has tried to send me down roads buried in several feet of snow (no winter maintenance road) before. Switching back to Google Maps doesn't make this sort of problem magically go away.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

robomartin 14y ago

Interestingly enough, today I was having a conversation about whether or not Maps had made any real improvements. You know, the kind that might compel one to finally upgrade to iOS6 or even consider upgrading to an iPhone 5. I asked a few people and nearly all of them expressed concern about being able to trust Maps. News like this doesn't make one feel better at all. Frankly, I don't understand Apple's decision in the context of the idea of being customer-focused. In other words, if you, as an organization, make decisions for the benefit of your customers --or, at the very least not to their detriment-- how can you justify pushing out Maps and not keeping Google Maps on there? OK, I get it. It would have cost more. A lot more. Fine. That's your problem. Pay Google for another five years exactly because you care about your customers. At the same time, put out your own Maps app and --funny enough-- compete on the merits of the app, not the hype. If in five years you can't turn Maps into an app that people will choose over Google Maps, then, well, why are you in the mapping business in the first place?

iaw 14y ago
Agreed. It's especially egregious because this functionality can potentially endanger the lives of customers while opening up liability suits (not a lawyer, just guessing). Anyone know how much it would've cost to keep google maps?
- jopt 14y ago
  It's probably not just a dollar figure; the terms have to be favourable concerning user data etc.
ceol 14y ago
The only way for Maps to get better is for people to report errors. If they release it alongside Google's version and no one uses it, no one will report errors, so it would never get better, and so on. Just two years ago I had Google Maps send me a few miles in the wrong direction and plant me in the middle of an unfinished housing development when I wanted to go to a shopping mall. It was a mistake, I reported it, and it was eventually fixed. It's not as bad as getting stranded in the middle of a national park, but a) It should be obvious that the middle of a national park isn't where a town is supposed to be, and b) If it's not obvious because you are a tourist, maybe you shouldn't be blindly trusting your Maps app and only having enough gas to make it to town?

simonlang 14y ago

This reminds me of a recent story where some tourists tried to drive their rental car to an island (through the ocean) because their GPS told them to: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/travel-news/taking-the-most-direct-route-to-straddie-20120315-1v85m.html http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/travel-news/taking-th...

georgeorwell 14y ago

We can all agree that the police are doing a good job by warning people about the problem, right?

duncan_bayne 14y ago

I live in Australia, and while I am not a fan of Apple or their products,I have to say that I'm surprised anyone in their right mind would go bush with just one map. Electronic or paper, maps have errors. Don't bet your life otherwise.

mwill 14y ago
Mildura isn't really going bush, depending on where you're coming from. I'd (before this article) be pretty comfortable following phone directions from say Bendigo to Mildura, which should just be a straight run down Calder Hwy. It seems pretty reasonable to use it to find a route between two cities/towns, which I've done in WA a few times with Google Maps. Though I'll admit I've never used turn by turn for that, rather just got the broad strokes. Is this a problem with turn by turn directions, or is Mildura actually in the wrong place on ios6 maps? EDIT: Took a look, seems like Mildura is actually marked at the wrong location, which is significantly worse imo.
- enneff 14y ago
  Indeed. Here's the road you should be taking: http://goo.gl/maps/QbZ88 http://goo.gl/maps/QbZ88 And this is the kind of road that Apple's maps send you down: http://goo.gl/maps/CdCjh http://goo.gl/maps/CdCjh
- duncan_bayne 14y ago
  Wow, holy hell. I admit I skimmed TFA; I'd assumed that the folks got lost somewhere in the bush _near_ Mildura. That's just not good.

jmgrimes 14y ago

I wonder if the big players can improve the quality of their maps by implementing wiki-style editing systems like OpenStreetMap. Google seem to have already started down this path with the Map Maker functionality. http://www.google.com.au/mapmaker http://www.google.com.au/mapmaker

aw3c2 14y ago
Map Maker is not really wiki-style. At least for me wiki means that you get your data out in a more of less raw form. With Map Maker you add vector data and get pictures in return. A drastic reduction in usability to me. You cannot export your data from Map Maker. You only feed Google with it.

bitsweet 14y ago

I love my iPhone, MBP, iPad, and how generally apple has raised the bar on software quality. But the maps app is truly intolerable - it's the most unusable thing apple released since ping, maybe even more so.

jarcoal 14y ago
I think it's highly usable, just not useful :)

MetalMASK 14y ago

The map failure is just another example of where apple's design principle cannot be blindly applied to every product. Apple's top-down approach on software design is expected to fail on Maps. Maps put hard requirement on data, bottom data, nothing to do with your leader's vision. Apple's way out of this is not to engage user input to add missing data or correct data errors --OSM tried that for years, the most accurate data still comes from semi-professional survey-er. Look at other companies that does map, google map started out using Tele Atlas, NavTeq serves yahoo, bing and mapquest. Let's face it, spatial data cost money to collect and even more costly to update/maintain. Nevteq and Tele Atlas are gigantic companies for serving basic spatial data for a reason. I guess apple didn't do sufficient data QA before saying, "hell yeah we are going with OSM where every big player is going with commercial data." Without a solid baseline data, any fancy pants software development would just evaporate in air. I have to say though, the GUI for apple map and functionality has very high usability. Apple just need to adapt a different mindset when dealing with data-dependent applications. (disclaimer: I am a PhD student in Geography with CS background, did my share of processing spatial data for the last 8 years)

jopt 14y ago
What's the disclaimer for? If we keep doing disclaimers wrong like this nobody will ever pay them any attention.
- jrajav 14y ago
  I was about to say - seems like more of a claimer to me.
- epa 14y ago
  Credibility and not anti-apple spam
- MetalMASK 14y ago
  sorry, just saying that I actually work in the field, not just a bystander saying apple is evil. I would be very happy if OSM in the end works(which I believe it will, just need at least a couple of more years); I would also be happy if apple map were able to fix the problem--which, as I pointed out, is the under-emphasized data issue.

djt 14y ago

It is quite common for tourists to get into trouble here in Australia due to the differences in climate etc too. FYI, when you travel make sure to bring extra clothes, water and food. Australia is a massive land mass and it is hard to fathom for people form a lot of countries that it can be a very harsh place for the unprepared. http://blog.australian-native.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/australiamap.jpg http://blog.australian-native.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009... Never have a single point of failure. A paper map or extra GPS at the bare minimum.

thisrod 14y ago

I'm intrigued that the police let this happen five times, and then put out a press release. After the second time in two weeks, I would have put up a sign: "This is not the road to Mildura. Go back and turn left at the highway."

isleyaardvark 14y ago
"Your iPhone is wrong" would be more effective.

jmspring 14y ago

Even before the iOS 6 maps debacle, relying on GPS for guidance in places like National Parks was pretty dumb. There are multiple stories of people getting stranded (and even dying) when relying on maps for places like Death Valley. Often times, even if one is in a suitable vehicle, knowledge of the environment, what to do in case of a problem, etc. are essential necessities in the case of anything going wrong. A buddy and I travel the back country of Death Valley regularly and the stories we have heard, the vehicles we have seen trying to go places they shouldn't, etc. are just amazing. At a certain point, however, common sense and personal responsibility need to be considered.

ChuckMcM 14y ago
Its not like bad map data on a free service can start a war, oh wait it can get that bad.[1] [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/nov/15/google-map-dispute-nicaragua http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/nov/15/google-map-...

guscost 14y ago

"Anyone travelling to Mildura or other locations within Victoria should rely on other forms of mapping until this matter is rectified. Like Google Maps." Explication mine.

prawn 14y ago

Recently drove a 4,500 km trip in Australia, including near Mildura. We relied on two iPhones, one with Google Maps and one with Apple's newer version. For the most part, we relied on Google's maps and they never failed. Occasionally, we switched to iOS 6 and had a few different problems including roads simply not existing. After a while, we'd watch the iOS 6 directions just for a laugh. Some of the stretches further East of Mildura run 100-200km without petrol stations and supplies. A number of the national parks in those areas are unmanned and irregularly visited, and there can be long periods even on sealed roads where you might not sight another car in an hour of driving. For one stretch (in and out of Mungo National Park), we stocked up on a lot of extra water as a precaution and notified family of our plans. Having an infant with us, I was very conscious of how quickly the temperature can rise once the air-con is off. Can easily see how people might blindly follow maps/GPS and end up caught out. Especially when you're relying on cached phone maps data if your connection drops, as it does frequently out there.

rytis 14y ago
I never rely on a phone whilst traveling (driving, cycling, hiking). When driving I mostly use built in car GPS or take a secondary dash mount GPS for longer journeys. When on feet I use one primary eTrex with maps, and always have a cheap secondary hand held GPS without the maps. Plus a paper map. And a set of extra AA batteries. Google search, maps and other good things you have on a smartphone are nice, but it's way too unreliable to my taste. Battery life is crap, and without a connection the phone is pretty useless, unless you use a mapping app that can download map data. In which case I'd rather use a dedicated mapping device. EDIT: Obviously all the equipment can't replace common sense. If you see you can't go any further - don't. Even if all your electronic devices tell you otherwise.
- wildranter 14y ago
  Don't forget to pack a compass next time. If you ever run out of batteries just the map isn't enought to provide precise directions.
- arethuza 14y ago
  "Plus a paper map" I'd never go anywhere risky without a paper map and conventional compass - I actually rarely use a GPS when out on the hill because I want to keep my navigation skills reasonably sharp. I generally only use a GPS device to confirm decisions I've already made in rather "tricky" situations.

oohmeplums 14y ago

It looks like this issue was caused by Apple mistakenly marking the centre of Local Government Areas as 'cities', in Australia at least. See example at http://imgur.com/qlciM http://imgur.com/qlciM for an example from Perth; Cambridge and Vincent aren't suburbs, and the others are in the wrong spot (Joondalup CBD is on the wrong side of the freeway)

mambodog 14y ago
A more glaring issue with Apple's map of Perth to my mind is that Fremantle Harbour has been completely filled in. See the bottom left of this Google map for comparison: http://i.imgur.com/GsmxQ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/GsmxQ.jpg

Pinatubo 14y ago

James Kim died just about 6 years ago. A lot of people blamed a GPS failure for his death, but apparently he and his family were using paper maps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim

SyneRyder 14y ago

I think I can explain this one - if I'm right, Apple already has the correct data, but is using it incorrectly. One of the Apple Maps data sources is GeoNames (geonames.org), a free data source available under a Creative Commons Attribution license and also used with the search on OpenStreetMap. If you search for Mildura at OpenStreetMap (openstreetmap.org) you'll get the correct location of the town, but if you scroll down the GeoNames list you'll also be offered "Mildura Shire" as a search option. Click on that, and the pointer moves to a location similar to the Apple Maps screenshot, about 70km away from the actual town. It seems that's the location that Apple's search has chosen to prioritize, over the actual town. Mildura Shire is listed in GeoNames as a "second-order administrative division", so it's probably similar to the middle of a county or council area. This isn't a problem with datasets or incorrect data, it's a problem with how Apple is searching & prioritizing the correct data they already have. Choosing the "town" instead of the "second-order administrative division" would be appropriate here. For what it's worth, GeoNames already prioritizes the town of Mildura correctly in their search engine.

saurik 14y ago
Something similar happens with Santa Barbara, but the results differ if you ask for driving directions or a normal search. A search for "Santa Barbara" returns the city, but if you ask for directions to "Santa Barbara" you are instead directed to a mountain range, probably because "Santa Barbara" is also the name of the county, which is fairly large and includes a lot of empty regions. (If you use "Santa Barbara, CA" instead, you deterministically get directed to the city.)
akent 14y ago
Nice sleuthing, but if that were the case wouldn't the same problem be seen more broadly?
- SyneRyder 14y ago
  You can see it more broadly, at least in Australia. I've been going through some of the examples listed at this blog: http://www.unsanelygreat.com/blog/2012/6/24/google-maps-vs-apple-maps.html http://www.unsanelygreat.com/blog/2012/6/24/google-maps-vs-a... Many don't line up with GeoNames data, but they do appear to be cases where a town name clashes with the name of a local council area, and Apple Maps have chosen the council area instead. Wanneroo is another example here: http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/post/32038150409/wanneroo-perth-western-australia-apple-maps-has http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/post/32038150409/wanner...

readme 14y ago

So, no, it's not good that apple's map data is inaccurate. But the title might be misleading. The bottom line is if you're driving into a wilderness area like a national park, you should not be depending on your cell phone for your own safety. One of the first things they tell you if you read the pamphlet outside of a hiking area is: do not depend on you cell phone. So sure, the map data is inaccurate. The more dangerous thing about this is that your battery has a finite lifespan. Also your signal is not guaranteed. You need to bring water, you need to bring supplies. You need to bring warm clothing. Seriously.

dools 14y ago
The bottom line is if you're driving into a wilderness area like a national park, you should not be depending on your cell phone for your own safety Mildura isn't a wilderness area, it's just a town in regional Victoria. The point is that this thing is taking people saying they want to go to Mildura (which is a town, not a wilderness area or a national park) and sending them into a national park with no infrastructure. These aren't people who have decided to "go hiking", they are just visiting a regional town centre.
Cogito 14y ago
Maybe it wasn't obvious to you from the article, but the issue here is that the maps direct you into a national park instead of Mildura, a nice little Victorian town. These people getting lost are not intending to drive "into a wilderness area like a national park", but were led into one by mistaken data. Yes, you could presume that the signs you were going the wrong way might be self evident after a little while, but if someone had literally no idea where Mildura was then they could easily end up in the middle of this national park assuming their iPhone was simply taking them the long way 'round. As they have no other choice they keep following the maps until they get to where they have been directed, only to find themselves in the middle of nowhere with no help and no reception. This is a serious problem, and the map data needs to be fixed.
- onedev 14y ago
  So you're telling me they ignored every sign that told them they were entering a national park? 5 different groups of people managed to not even have a tiny bit of skepticism?

dchichkov 14y ago

Was driving from SF to Big Sur some time back. Google totally tried to take me off road from HW 1 [turn right. turn right now], and then calmly stated "There is no route to your destination".

RyJones 14y ago
Google Maps is frequently broken around the thinly-populated Seattle metro area. I've filed bug after bug, to no avail; in the end, I stopped using it altogether. It cannot handle the I90 express lanes in either direction; getting directions to somewhere on Mercer Island from Seattle when you're on the express lanes eastbound gets a route to Bellevue, turn around, and come back. No, that's OK, I'll take one of the Mercer Island exits, thank you. Furthermore, the transit integration is so broken as to be useless. Asking for a route from Kirkland to the Seattle federal building gives you a bus route to downtown Kirkland (the post office, actually). The POIs in that area are AFU.

WestCoastJustin 14y ago

Here is a horror story about a couple from my province that "became stuck in a remote area when their GPS system led them on to a back road" [1]. [1] http://www.usaprepares.com/survival/husband-died-just-six-miles-from-help-after-he-and-wife-got-lost-in-wild-because-of-gps-he-died-trying-to-raise-alarm-but-she-survived-for-seven-weeks-by-staying-put http://www.usaprepares.com/survival/husband-died-just-six-mi...

assharif 14y ago

This never would have happened if Steve Jobs was alive

jstclair 14y ago

I had to go to the main emergency room in Oslo last week. iOS6 couldn't find it, or even the correct street. Looking at the map in detail later, it didn't even have a building at the correct location. I was furious.

kanamekun 14y ago
Did you find it on the Google Map website/web app?
- jstclair 14y ago
  Yep; on the first try. Unfortunately, I was trying to drive my son (who had broken his arm) and the Google driving directions would only display the list mode, rather than on the map. I ended up finding the building on Google Maps, then dropping a pin on iOS Maps, and using the turn-by-turn. All-in-all a stressful experience
  - bruceboughton 14y ago
    How would you have found your way there 5 years ago?
  - nasmorn 14y ago
    Why didn't you call an ambulance? When I worked for the redcross during civil service I always wondered why we have patients with nose bleed or some other bubu to drive in and then we take back some guy with a broken leg or life threatning pneumonia that got in himself.
    - jstclair 14y ago
      Actually, my big mistake was not keeping the taxi I'd taken from work (normally, I take the tram & train) to pick him up at school. He was in pain, but not anything I'd consider taking the ambulance for (and the driving distance from his school to the emergency room is ~2-3 km). I shouldn't have gotten my car, and instead just have dumped him into the taxi. Norway covers a share of the taxi fare when it's for medical reasons.

mattquiros 14y ago

Can't help noticing how those who've never had problems with Apple Maps are usually people from the US. The iPhone is sold in other parts of the world too, you know.

pthreadses 14y ago
Actually I've noticed quite the opposite. At least in the more populated parts of Europe, in my experience Apple Maps does fine and in some cases does better than Google Maps (in my home city of Berlin I find Apple Maps to have been an improvement, primarily in the department of Apple Maps "knowing what it doesn't know" where as Google seems to guess and be wrong. Also, transit. Google is terrible for transit in Europe). I recently used Apple Maps to roadtrip through Germany and Austria, and it worked without a single hiccup. This summer I had the beta running in Switzerland and it was fine. In the darker corners of Europe, well, I'll just say in Belgrade iOS maps literally had nothing but a pin. No streets at all. So it seems wildly dependent on where you are.

hnruss 14y ago

Whatever happened to reading road signs? They are actually pretty easy to use.

Argorak 14y ago

Out of couriosity, I navigated the Kalahari with both a map and a TomTom. I was quite surprised to find that the paths were quite accurate - but shifted by roughly 5 kms. So I could use the maps, but not the navigation capabilities of the system at all.

lisperforlife 14y ago

I would pay money for a google maps app.

mtgx 14y ago

Apple's hatred towards Google is now putting people's lives at risk. Good job, Apple.

nicholassmith 14y ago

Oddly enough Google Maps got me lost before, a couple of times. Lets stop assuming Google Maps was all that and a bag of chips, it did have issues at times. I think it's because I've done long journeys powered by digital maps but I always made sure that there was an agreement level between two, or that it looked sane on a tried and tested road map. As good as they've gotten for the most part they're still prone to bugs, or to lose signal. Paper maps are a car essential still.

Mordor 14y ago

Steve Jobs was great at coming late to market with a product superior to everyone else. Time is telling of his replacement..

ck2 14y ago

So what was the death rate before iphone or any smartphone existed? What if the iphone battery dies, even with super accurate maps? I don't have a cellphone plan so I carry paper maps, I guess I am old and old fashioned.

chris_wot 14y ago
Not to mention smart. If you go to the outback in many areas of Australia without a map or a backup plan, you are seriously risking your life.

HannibalLecter 14y ago

I use Garmin and have never had any issues like this. Blackberry's GPS is unreliable because the phone goes out of service in wooded areas. My Garmin has never had that issue. If you're not using a GPS device for GPS, you're living with a false sense of security -- especially for a back-road country journey.

Flenser 14y ago

You should always have a road atlas in your car. Batteries run out and network connections may not be reliable, you will always have access to a paper map if you have one. If you have an atlas you can always navigate yourself out of any problem (diversions, heavy traffic, accidents closing roads etc.) and they are a good sanity check of whatever your GPS or map app is telling you. Better yet, check your route in the atlas before you set out and you will know your route better, and be able to react quicker to any unforeseen problems.

tripzilch 14y ago

I heard similar stories about Google Maps a few years ago, people getting stuck in US desert/parks because the GPS is incorrect (and also reception wasn't good back then, but that might have improved by now maybe). At least this story is hitting the HN front page. Because the park rangers were hitting Google's traditionally deaf customer service ears (which must have been super-frustrating because people had already died and/or gotten into life-threatening situations). I lost the link to that article, sorry. If I happen upon it, I'll post it here. On the one hand I suppose it's people's own fault for venturing into dangerous terrain unprepared. But on the other hand, what's the use of having GPS Maps when you don't know when it's trustworthy or not? Great effort by OpenStreetMap (read below) of cross-checking their own maps for consistency with competitor maps, is at least a step in the right direction.

davemaya 14y ago

They misplaced the main hospital in Cambridge, UK.

asc76 14y ago

They first to to get it to work properly.

djbender 14y ago

"Apple i-phone."

MagnitudeSw 14y ago

The new maps drop a major landmark on my street in Atlanta. We went from dead quiet to non-stop traffic. Not good when people are driving 30+ MPH staring at their phones in confusion. It's been 1.5 months since we've had everyone we can think of submit the problem. Still not fixed. What does it take for Apple to actually "fix" an incorrect pin location and label?