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> Known Issues > Exclusive fullscreen mode on Windows may cause the game to crash in certain situations, especially when using multiple monitors > Entering Ex

by shakna 3mo ago

> Known Issues > Exclusive fullscreen mode on Windows may cause the game to crash in certain situations, especially when using multiple monitors > Entering Exclusive fullscreen mode crashes the game on Wayland Those, together, kinda seem like the kind of blocking bug that would usually delay a snapshot... Lets hoping it gets fixed before release lands...

functionmouse 3mo ago
Pretty sure minecraft has used borderless full screen for a long time unless you go out of your way to tell it not to. Lots of platforms, services, and applications have been deprecating exclusive full screen over the past decade or so.
- theschmed 3mo ago
  Yes, and any game that is frequently streamed or otherwise recorded is wise to. Exclusive full screen doesn’t play well with others.
- peesem 3mo ago
  in this same release Minecraft removed exclusive fullscreen on MacOS, i wonder why they haven't done the same on Windows & Linux - maybe people still have uses for that stuff on those operating systems? in my experience exclusive fullscreen is Awful on MacOS
  - Grombobulous 3mo ago
    I consider this the fault of macOS. The way macOS handles full screen makes it a nonstarter as a gaming platform even if it had a huge gaming library. Still, I’ll admit that Minecraft full screen on Mac is even worse than almost all other games.
    - LoganDark 3mo ago
      I highly doubt that macOS fullscreen has that much higher latency than Windows fullscreen. The latency is so fine that I play Windows games over a capture card using OBS as the monitor. (The Mac has a 120Hz display though.) I like to play games like ARC Raiders using that setup. Works perfectly fine. Sure it sucks that I need Windows at all for it, but SteamOS isn't an option yet due to my 3090
      - Grombobulous 3mo ago
        I’m not talking about the latency, more of the interface surrounding it and the overall feel of it. It’s kind of hard to describe what I dislike about it. I’m not really a fan of the way it’s a three finger swipe sideways to leave and enter the full screen either. I’m pretty sure I have had at some point issues where putting my cursor at the top of the window erroneously shows the menu bar within certain types of games. Not sure if I’m remembering right, it’s been a while since I’ve tried playing games on Mac.
        LoganDark 3mo ago
        What you're describing is Spaces which is macOS's multi-desktop system. I agree it's annoying to have to tolerate a glacial animation just to switch between apps when they happen to be fullscreen. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but it's definitely near the top of my list of annoying things about macOS. But fullscreen applications are on the same level as additional desktops, basically. My personal solution is just to get good at swiping quickly but there is also now an app that simulates the trackpad gesture well enough to get instant switching. The menu bar is supposed to appear with the cursor at the top of the screen. I have also encountered issues where it doesn't properly hide until you bring your cursor back in order to take the cursor away again and then it hides. It's a quirk but I sort of understand why it happens and it's just a small glitch to me.
        Grombobulous 3mo ago
        Perhaps I was playing an RTS or city builder game or something along those lines and experienced that problem with the menu bar, and maybe if that did happen the developer could have prevented it with a better port.
  - Rohansi 3mo ago
    > i wonder why they haven't done the same on Windows Probably because a lot of people feel like they need exclusive fullscreen for best performance and/or latency. But in reality borderless fullscreen is exactly the same when games use the DXGI flip model. It bypasses DWM (the compositor) to render directly to the display when only the game is visible and seamlessly allows you to switch to other windows. You can even disable Vsync and it will allow screen tearing when bypassing DWM.
    - deleted 3mo ago
      [deleted]
    - nomel 3mo ago
      I was playing Helldivers 2 in a small borderless window in the middle of my screen last week. I use fullscreen because it always works, except when switching apps, which I just don't do when I'm exclusively playing a game. Indie games seem to have the most trouble with borderless, with offsets, taskbar still visible, etc. It seems rare for an Indie game to not use fullscreen.
  - rafram 3mo ago
    Does macOS even have exclusive fullscreen anymore? I haven’t looked into it, but my impression is that it fakes it with borderless windowed even when the app explicitly asks for it.
    - ezfe 3mo ago
      Regardless of how it worked, the game asking for it caused problems
    - peesem 3mo ago
      it does still exist as far as i understand it. the resolution you select affects the size of the mouse cursor and then when switching away from the game you can see the rest of the system resizing back to normal
    - peapicker 3mo ago
      Yes. On Apple Silicon Macs (w/ macOS Sonoma or later), native fullscreen automatically triggers Game Mode. This feature slashes input lag by prioritizing CPU/GPU resources and doubling the Bluetooth polling rate to 240 Hz for wireless accessories. Gaming works very well in this mode, even with PC titles played thru crossover. Conversely, using borderless windowed mode instead of native fullscreen on macOS adds rendering latency due to the Desktop Window Manager (DWM) compositor. The latter is 'doing it wrong' and has the lag people don't like.
      - mh- 3mo ago
        I didn't know that part about the bluetooth polling rate. That's clever.
      - mort96 3mo ago
        Game mode also breaks background audio playback through Bluetooth. And it's hard to turn off with no global setting. I hate it.
      - LoganDark 3mo ago
        macOS doesn't have Desktop Window Manager, it has WindowServer.
rbits 3mo ago
Well that's why it's a snapshot. It will probably be fixed in the next snapshot.
mort96 3mo ago
Delay a release? Sure. But delay a snapshot? Why? By releasing the snapshot in this state, they learn both 1) how big of a problem those known issues are (how often does entering exclusive fullscreen crash the game on Windows? They presumably have telemetry for this), and 2) if there are other, as of yet unknown issues they need to fix before release. The earlier you learn these things, the better. There hasn't ever been a promise that snapshots are bug free; the expectation is rather the opposite.
- repeekad 3mo ago
  Are snapshots explicitly a beta channel? Or do users get auto updates to them? Testing for bugs in prod shouldn’t be acceptable unless users expect bugs in exchange for getting latest features early in something like a beta channel
  - mort96 3mo ago
    They're previews of what they're working on and what they're going to add to the next version. You don't get auto updated to them, you have to select them in the launcher. As you would expect from the word "snapshot" contrasted up against the word "release", might I add.
  - piperswe 3mo ago
    Snapshots are the weekly (at least they used to be, I think they're less frequent now) development snapshots - they are explicitly pre-beta versions that you have to opt in to.
  - poly2it 3mo ago
    Snapshots are only for testing. They are sometimes not forwards-compatible.
  - creatonez 3mo ago
    They are explicitly a beta channel, and in fact if you create a world on a snapshot you don't have an upgrade path to future releases (unless you start hacking at your world files with an NBT editor). So most of the community ignores them and waits till release.
flohofwoe 3mo ago
Tbf, exclusive fullscreen is quite exotic nowadays (as opposed to rendering into a fullscreen window). Window managers will typically apply the same optimizations to a frontmost fullscreen window as was done in the past only for exclusive fullscreen.
TheDong 3mo ago
> delay a snapshot The point of a snapshot is that it's a snapshot of current main, bugs and all, even release-blocking bugs. In my head, the order of stability expectations are (noting that minecraft doesn't do most of these levels, nor do most projects): 1. Long-term support / extended support release 2. Release 3. Release candidate 4. Beta 5. Alpha 6. Snapshot 7. Just-merged master commit 8. Unmerged pull request from a developer on the project 9. Unmerged draft pull request from a developer on the project 10. Unmerged pull request from a stranger 11. .patch file for the source code hosted on pastebin and linked by a total stranger on a cryptocurrency related discord server 12. GitHub's servers I would expect a fairly major bug to delay a release candidate or beta. I would expect an absolutely critical bug to prevent merge. I would not expect any bug which passes the CI tests and gets merged to delay a snapshot, since snapshots are just effectively a scheduled cronjob of "at this date, we cut a release of current main so people can play with it and give feedback if they want without having to figure out how to compile main themselves"
- mghackerlady 3mo ago
  You've clearly never been saved by a random .patch from pastebin, have you

by shakna 3mo ago

functionmouse 3mo ago

Pretty sure minecraft has used borderless full screen for a long time unless you go out of your way to tell it not to. Lots of platforms, services, and applications have been deprecating exclusive full screen over the past decade or so.

theschmed 3mo ago
Yes, and any game that is frequently streamed or otherwise recorded is wise to. Exclusive full screen doesn’t play well with others.
peesem 3mo ago
in this same release Minecraft removed exclusive fullscreen on MacOS, i wonder why they haven't done the same on Windows & Linux - maybe people still have uses for that stuff on those operating systems? in my experience exclusive fullscreen is Awful on MacOS
- Grombobulous 3mo ago
  I consider this the fault of macOS. The way macOS handles full screen makes it a nonstarter as a gaming platform even if it had a huge gaming library. Still, I’ll admit that Minecraft full screen on Mac is even worse than almost all other games.
  - LoganDark 3mo ago
    I highly doubt that macOS fullscreen has that much higher latency than Windows fullscreen. The latency is so fine that I play Windows games over a capture card using OBS as the monitor. (The Mac has a 120Hz display though.) I like to play games like ARC Raiders using that setup. Works perfectly fine. Sure it sucks that I need Windows at all for it, but SteamOS isn't an option yet due to my 3090
    - Grombobulous 3mo ago
      I’m not talking about the latency, more of the interface surrounding it and the overall feel of it. It’s kind of hard to describe what I dislike about it. I’m not really a fan of the way it’s a three finger swipe sideways to leave and enter the full screen either. I’m pretty sure I have had at some point issues where putting my cursor at the top of the window erroneously shows the menu bar within certain types of games. Not sure if I’m remembering right, it’s been a while since I’ve tried playing games on Mac.
      - LoganDark 3mo ago
        What you're describing is Spaces which is macOS's multi-desktop system. I agree it's annoying to have to tolerate a glacial animation just to switch between apps when they happen to be fullscreen. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but it's definitely near the top of my list of annoying things about macOS. But fullscreen applications are on the same level as additional desktops, basically. My personal solution is just to get good at swiping quickly but there is also now an app that simulates the trackpad gesture well enough to get instant switching. The menu bar is supposed to appear with the cursor at the top of the screen. I have also encountered issues where it doesn't properly hide until you bring your cursor back in order to take the cursor away again and then it hides. It's a quirk but I sort of understand why it happens and it's just a small glitch to me.
        Grombobulous 3mo ago
        Perhaps I was playing an RTS or city builder game or something along those lines and experienced that problem with the menu bar, and maybe if that did happen the developer could have prevented it with a better port.
- Rohansi 3mo ago
  > i wonder why they haven't done the same on Windows Probably because a lot of people feel like they need exclusive fullscreen for best performance and/or latency. But in reality borderless fullscreen is exactly the same when games use the DXGI flip model. It bypasses DWM (the compositor) to render directly to the display when only the game is visible and seamlessly allows you to switch to other windows. You can even disable Vsync and it will allow screen tearing when bypassing DWM.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  - nomel 3mo ago
    I was playing Helldivers 2 in a small borderless window in the middle of my screen last week. I use fullscreen because it always works, except when switching apps, which I just don't do when I'm exclusively playing a game. Indie games seem to have the most trouble with borderless, with offsets, taskbar still visible, etc. It seems rare for an Indie game to not use fullscreen.
- rafram 3mo ago
  Does macOS even have exclusive fullscreen anymore? I haven’t looked into it, but my impression is that it fakes it with borderless windowed even when the app explicitly asks for it.
  - ezfe 3mo ago
    Regardless of how it worked, the game asking for it caused problems
  - peesem 3mo ago
    it does still exist as far as i understand it. the resolution you select affects the size of the mouse cursor and then when switching away from the game you can see the rest of the system resizing back to normal
  - peapicker 3mo ago
    Yes. On Apple Silicon Macs (w/ macOS Sonoma or later), native fullscreen automatically triggers Game Mode. This feature slashes input lag by prioritizing CPU/GPU resources and doubling the Bluetooth polling rate to 240 Hz for wireless accessories. Gaming works very well in this mode, even with PC titles played thru crossover. Conversely, using borderless windowed mode instead of native fullscreen on macOS adds rendering latency due to the Desktop Window Manager (DWM) compositor. The latter is 'doing it wrong' and has the lag people don't like.
    - mh- 3mo ago
      I didn't know that part about the bluetooth polling rate. That's clever.
    - mort96 3mo ago
      Game mode also breaks background audio playback through Bluetooth. And it's hard to turn off with no global setting. I hate it.
    - LoganDark 3mo ago
      macOS doesn't have Desktop Window Manager, it has WindowServer.

rbits 3mo ago

Well that's why it's a snapshot. It will probably be fixed in the next snapshot.

mort96 3mo ago

Delay a release? Sure. But delay a snapshot? Why? By releasing the snapshot in this state, they learn both 1) how big of a problem those known issues are (how often does entering exclusive fullscreen crash the game on Windows? They presumably have telemetry for this), and 2) if there are other, as of yet unknown issues they need to fix before release. The earlier you learn these things, the better. There hasn't ever been a promise that snapshots are bug free; the expectation is rather the opposite.

repeekad 3mo ago
Are snapshots explicitly a beta channel? Or do users get auto updates to them? Testing for bugs in prod shouldn’t be acceptable unless users expect bugs in exchange for getting latest features early in something like a beta channel
- mort96 3mo ago
  They're previews of what they're working on and what they're going to add to the next version. You don't get auto updated to them, you have to select them in the launcher. As you would expect from the word "snapshot" contrasted up against the word "release", might I add.
- piperswe 3mo ago
  Snapshots are the weekly (at least they used to be, I think they're less frequent now) development snapshots - they are explicitly pre-beta versions that you have to opt in to.
- poly2it 3mo ago
  Snapshots are only for testing. They are sometimes not forwards-compatible.
- creatonez 3mo ago
  They are explicitly a beta channel, and in fact if you create a world on a snapshot you don't have an upgrade path to future releases (unless you start hacking at your world files with an NBT editor). So most of the community ignores them and waits till release.

flohofwoe 3mo ago

Tbf, exclusive fullscreen is quite exotic nowadays (as opposed to rendering into a fullscreen window). Window managers will typically apply the same optimizations to a frontmost fullscreen window as was done in the past only for exclusive fullscreen.

TheDong 3mo ago

> delay a snapshot The point of a snapshot is that it's a snapshot of current main, bugs and all, even release-blocking bugs. In my head, the order of stability expectations are (noting that minecraft doesn't do most of these levels, nor do most projects): 1. Long-term support / extended support release 2. Release 3. Release candidate 4. Beta 5. Alpha 6. Snapshot 7. Just-merged master commit 8. Unmerged pull request from a developer on the project 9. Unmerged draft pull request from a developer on the project 10. Unmerged pull request from a stranger 11. .patch file for the source code hosted on pastebin and linked by a total stranger on a cryptocurrency related discord server 12. GitHub's servers I would expect a fairly major bug to delay a release candidate or beta. I would expect an absolutely critical bug to prevent merge. I would not expect any bug which passes the CI tests and gets merged to delay a snapshot, since snapshots are just effectively a scheduled cronjob of "at this date, we cut a release of current main so people can play with it and give feedback if they want without having to figure out how to compile main themselves"

mghackerlady 3mo ago
You've clearly never been saved by a random .patch from pastebin, have you