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How can I say this…? Some companies come across like a neon sign flashing "EVIL!". It's been nothing but warning signs from this company for at least a year no

How can I say this…? Some companies come across like a neon sign flashing "EVIL!". It's been nothing but warning signs from this company for at least a year now. I'm so happy to have nothing to do with them (having deleted my account a year or so ago). Their marketing dept is going to have to really dig to get them out of this hole they've made for themselves. The idea that I would trust any device they might roll out that is as personal as a personal AI assistant… It's no better than Meta and their creepy glasses. Yeah, no thanks. EDIT: I don't mind the downvotes—it means I touched a nerve—whether I am on the right or wrong side of the issue is not as interesting. Apple, for its flaws, has not lost my trust with regard to my personal data—Meta and others are likely to never gain that back. OpenAI continues to do things to signal that they will not have that trust with me as well.

khalic 3mo ago
… so… you’re talking about OpenAI or Apple?
- plufz 3mo ago
  From what we know this far it’s quite easy to be on Apples side in this particular question, right?
  - JKCalhoun 3mo ago
    Especially since Apple has no history of doing this—suggests this is on another level of theft. (I worked at Apple and am aware of little "theft" incidents that came and went. Obviously those little incidents never made the news cycle.)
    - nba456_ 3mo ago
      How could you have worked at Apple during the entire Samsung lawsuit and say Apple has no history of suing competitors over IP theft?
      - EPWN3D 3mo ago
        Because Apple didn't sue Samsung over IP theft. They sued them over copyright infringement.
        bradyd 3mo ago
        It was actually patent infringement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Samsung_Electronics_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Samsung_Electron....
        inigyou 3mo ago
        Copyright infringement is a sub-category of IP theft. Other types of IP theft include trademark infringement, and patent infringement.
        EPWN3D 3mo ago
        Sure, I guess. But I think people reading this thread are drawing a line between "Copying the publicly-visible IP" and "Inducing employees to walk out with trade secrets in hand." No one at Samsung was facing prison time. People at OpenAI very well could.
      - JKCalhoun 3mo ago
        You're right—I didn't mean to suggest they've never sued competitors. Some companies are just known to be litigious—I've never put Apple in that bucket. (And maybe I have blinders on. It's certainly fair to blame me for being biased.)
  - khalic 3mo ago
    Yes it was more of a jest than a critique, the comment didn't explicitly say which one it was. In this case, it seems quite clear that Apple has a case.
- JKCalhoun 3mo ago
  Ha ha. Worked at Apple for over two decades—would not have stayed at a company I thought was evil for that long. A bully at times? I wouldn't argue with that.
  - yomismoaqui 3mo ago
    A quick search: APP STORE, COMPETITION, AND MARKET CONTROL - U.S. Department of Justice antitrust lawsuit Accuses Apple of monopolizing smartphone markets and anticompetitive behavior. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-apple-monopolizing-smartphone-markets - EU Commission DMA breach The European Commission found Apple in breach of the Digital Markets Act regarding steering rules. https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/news/commission-finds-apple-and-meta-breach-digital-markets-act - Epic Games injunction sanctions Court rules Apple defied App Store order regarding external payment links. https://apnews.com/article/69b16572d2b2c990f6b69d4bbad9b57b - EU €1.8B App Store fine Fined for abusive music-streaming rules and preventing cheaper alternative information. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_1161 IPHONE PERFORMANCE AND "BATTERYGATE" - Apple Will Finally Pay for Throttling iPhones (WIRED) Apple settled the throttling lawsuit for up to $500 million (without admitting guilt). https://www.wired.com/story/apple-batterygate-settlement-payments-finally-coming/ RIGHT TO REPAIR AND PARTS PAIRING - The End of Parts Pairing? Almost (iFixit) On how software component linking forces warnings and loses functionality. https://www.ifixit.com/News/100266/the-end-of-parts-pairing-almost - Self-Repair Programme Critique (Right to Repair Europe) Critiques serialization, remote authorization, and part restrictions. https://repair.eu/news/apples-self-repair-programme-is-not-the-right-to-repair-we-need/ - France is Fighting to Save Your iPhone from an Early Death (WIRED) Regarding France's probe into planned obsolescence and parts pairing. https://www.wired.com/story/right-to-repair-apple-france/ PRIVACY AND SURVEILLANCE - Apple to pay $95 million to settle Siri privacy lawsuit (Reuters) Lawsuit alleging accidental Siri recordings and sharing with third parties. https://www.reuters.com/legal/apple-pay-95-million-settle-siri-privacy-lawsuit-2025-01-02/ - Apple's CSAM On-Device Scanning Critiques (EFF) The Electronic Frontier Foundation's critique of Apple's plan to scan photos on-device (later dropped). https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/apples-plan-think-different-about-encryption-opens-backdoor-your-private-life LABOR CONDITIONS IN SUPPLY CHAINS - Apple Reveals Supply Chain, Details Conditions (Reuters) Early reporting on audit findings of child labor and work violations. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/uk/apple-reveals-supply-chain-details-conditions-idUSTRE80C1KV/ - Rights Group Says Apple Suppliers in China Broke Labor Laws (Reuters) Reports of excessive overtime and labor violations in Chinese factories. https://www.reuters.com/article/business/rights-group-says-apple-suppliers-in-china-breaking-labour-laws-idUSBRE85R0EF/ TAX PRACTICES - State aid: Ireland gave illegal tax benefits to Apple worth up to €13 billion (European Commission) The EC ruling that Ireland gave illegal tax benefits to Apple, later upheld. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_16_2923
groundzeros2015 3mo ago
> Some companies come across like a neon sign flashing "EVIL!". This is a perception created by your choice of media.
- JKCalhoun 3mo ago
  Probably. (HackerNews, FWIW.)
- Danox 3mo ago
  In Samsung’s case, they are evil buy something from them, and you are dead to them after the sale mind you, that probably would be the case with many Korean and Chinese companies too. Would never buy anything from Samsung.
  - groundzeros2015 3mo ago
    I do not do business with companies that treat me poorly or offer low quality services. My observation is that feeling a strong moral valence for a company is a media construction.
gsibble 3mo ago
Agreed. Very wary of OpenAI these days.
JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
> don't mind the downvotes—it means I touched a nerve Nope. You wrote an ambiguous blurb that then breaks guidelines by commenting “about the voting on comments” [1]. Try taking out the edit and change “this company” in the second paragraph to OpenAI. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- JKCalhoun 3mo ago
  …and too late to edit my edit… (Weird thing about HN.)
oceansweep 3mo ago
apple tracks every binary you execute and run on macos and sends the hash of it to their systems. Do you consider that to be respecting your privacy?
- JKCalhoun 3mo ago
  It depends on how it is done. No, seriously. I worked at Apple on Schoolwork for the last few years of my career and saw firsthand how Apple handles data it gathers. As an example, every device was given a unique identifier that in no way identified the user of the device (I mean it was simply a UUID). Additionally, it was tossed and a new one recreated every 11 months. Because I am inclined to give Apple the benefit of the doubt (your mileage may vary), I am assuming the binary hash they send is intended to protect users from malicious binaries (once their hash is identified of course). And if Apple in this case also rotates the UUID every 11 months, I don't have to worry about them targeting me and my habits specifically (well, not beyond 11 months windows in any event). Additionally, when at Apple, we had privacy teams walk through things like error logs that our app and framework wrote—making sure there was no PID (personally identifiable information) in the logs. A naive engineer might, in a URL-fetch timeout, for example, log something like, "Timeout for URL request: 'myblog.blogsite.com'". Privacy would ask, "Is it important we log the full URL? Might we instead just log the domain?"

khalic 3mo ago

… so… you’re talking about OpenAI or Apple?

plufz 3mo ago
From what we know this far it’s quite easy to be on Apples side in this particular question, right?
- JKCalhoun 3mo ago
  Especially since Apple has no history of doing this—suggests this is on another level of theft. (I worked at Apple and am aware of little "theft" incidents that came and went. Obviously those little incidents never made the news cycle.)
  - nba456_ 3mo ago
    How could you have worked at Apple during the entire Samsung lawsuit and say Apple has no history of suing competitors over IP theft?
    - EPWN3D 3mo ago
      Because Apple didn't sue Samsung over IP theft. They sued them over copyright infringement.
      - bradyd 3mo ago
        It was actually patent infringement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Samsung_Electronics_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Samsung_Electron....
      - inigyou 3mo ago
        Copyright infringement is a sub-category of IP theft. Other types of IP theft include trademark infringement, and patent infringement.
        EPWN3D 3mo ago
        Sure, I guess. But I think people reading this thread are drawing a line between "Copying the publicly-visible IP" and "Inducing employees to walk out with trade secrets in hand." No one at Samsung was facing prison time. People at OpenAI very well could.
    - JKCalhoun 3mo ago
      You're right—I didn't mean to suggest they've never sued competitors. Some companies are just known to be litigious—I've never put Apple in that bucket. (And maybe I have blinders on. It's certainly fair to blame me for being biased.)
- khalic 3mo ago
  Yes it was more of a jest than a critique, the comment didn't explicitly say which one it was. In this case, it seems quite clear that Apple has a case.
JKCalhoun 3mo ago
Ha ha. Worked at Apple for over two decades—would not have stayed at a company I thought was evil for that long. A bully at times? I wouldn't argue with that.
- yomismoaqui 3mo ago
  A quick search: APP STORE, COMPETITION, AND MARKET CONTROL - U.S. Department of Justice antitrust lawsuit Accuses Apple of monopolizing smartphone markets and anticompetitive behavior. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-apple-monopolizing-smartphone-markets - EU Commission DMA breach The European Commission found Apple in breach of the Digital Markets Act regarding steering rules. https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/news/commission-finds-apple-and-meta-breach-digital-markets-act - Epic Games injunction sanctions Court rules Apple defied App Store order regarding external payment links. https://apnews.com/article/69b16572d2b2c990f6b69d4bbad9b57b - EU €1.8B App Store fine Fined for abusive music-streaming rules and preventing cheaper alternative information. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_1161 IPHONE PERFORMANCE AND "BATTERYGATE" - Apple Will Finally Pay for Throttling iPhones (WIRED) Apple settled the throttling lawsuit for up to $500 million (without admitting guilt). https://www.wired.com/story/apple-batterygate-settlement-payments-finally-coming/ RIGHT TO REPAIR AND PARTS PAIRING - The End of Parts Pairing? Almost (iFixit) On how software component linking forces warnings and loses functionality. https://www.ifixit.com/News/100266/the-end-of-parts-pairing-almost - Self-Repair Programme Critique (Right to Repair Europe) Critiques serialization, remote authorization, and part restrictions. https://repair.eu/news/apples-self-repair-programme-is-not-the-right-to-repair-we-need/ - France is Fighting to Save Your iPhone from an Early Death (WIRED) Regarding France's probe into planned obsolescence and parts pairing. https://www.wired.com/story/right-to-repair-apple-france/ PRIVACY AND SURVEILLANCE - Apple to pay $95 million to settle Siri privacy lawsuit (Reuters) Lawsuit alleging accidental Siri recordings and sharing with third parties. https://www.reuters.com/legal/apple-pay-95-million-settle-siri-privacy-lawsuit-2025-01-02/ - Apple's CSAM On-Device Scanning Critiques (EFF) The Electronic Frontier Foundation's critique of Apple's plan to scan photos on-device (later dropped). https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/apples-plan-think-different-about-encryption-opens-backdoor-your-private-life LABOR CONDITIONS IN SUPPLY CHAINS - Apple Reveals Supply Chain, Details Conditions (Reuters) Early reporting on audit findings of child labor and work violations. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/uk/apple-reveals-supply-chain-details-conditions-idUSTRE80C1KV/ - Rights Group Says Apple Suppliers in China Broke Labor Laws (Reuters) Reports of excessive overtime and labor violations in Chinese factories. https://www.reuters.com/article/business/rights-group-says-apple-suppliers-in-china-breaking-labour-laws-idUSBRE85R0EF/ TAX PRACTICES - State aid: Ireland gave illegal tax benefits to Apple worth up to €13 billion (European Commission) The EC ruling that Ireland gave illegal tax benefits to Apple, later upheld. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_16_2923

groundzeros2015 3mo ago

> Some companies come across like a neon sign flashing "EVIL!". This is a perception created by your choice of media.

JKCalhoun 3mo ago
Probably. (HackerNews, FWIW.)
Danox 3mo ago
In Samsung’s case, they are evil buy something from them, and you are dead to them after the sale mind you, that probably would be the case with many Korean and Chinese companies too. Would never buy anything from Samsung.
- groundzeros2015 3mo ago
  I do not do business with companies that treat me poorly or offer low quality services. My observation is that feeling a strong moral valence for a company is a media construction.

gsibble 3mo ago

Agreed. Very wary of OpenAI these days.

JumpCrisscross 3mo ago

> don't mind the downvotes—it means I touched a nerve Nope. You wrote an ambiguous blurb that then breaks guidelines by commenting “about the voting on comments” [1]. Try taking out the edit and change “this company” in the second paragraph to OpenAI. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

JKCalhoun 3mo ago
…and too late to edit my edit… (Weird thing about HN.)

oceansweep 3mo ago

apple tracks every binary you execute and run on macos and sends the hash of it to their systems. Do you consider that to be respecting your privacy?

JKCalhoun 3mo ago
It depends on how it is done. No, seriously. I worked at Apple on Schoolwork for the last few years of my career and saw firsthand how Apple handles data it gathers. As an example, every device was given a unique identifier that in no way identified the user of the device (I mean it was simply a UUID). Additionally, it was tossed and a new one recreated every 11 months. Because I am inclined to give Apple the benefit of the doubt (your mileage may vary), I am assuming the binary hash they send is intended to protect users from malicious binaries (once their hash is identified of course). And if Apple in this case also rotates the UUID every 11 months, I don't have to worry about them targeting me and my habits specifically (well, not beyond 11 months windows in any event). Additionally, when at Apple, we had privacy teams walk through things like error logs that our app and framework wrote—making sure there was no PID (personally identifiable information) in the logs. A naive engineer might, in a URL-fetch timeout, for example, log something like, "Timeout for URL request: 'myblog.blogsite.com'". Privacy would ask, "Is it important we log the full URL? Might we instead just log the domain?"