4 ms·

Not good. Stripe makes restrictions that PayPal allows (cannabis adjacent, adult adjacent) that Stripe blocks. Many vendors will be negatively impacted by Stri

by edoceo 3mo ago

Not good. Stripe makes restrictions that PayPal allows (cannabis adjacent, adult adjacent) that Stripe blocks. Many vendors will be negatively impacted by Stripes morality police and selective application of their policies.

3uler 3mo ago
In my experience, having worked at several large PSPs, it is Mastercard and Visa who are the morality police. Stripe are just enforcing the rules insisted on by them, and PayPal forgot about them 3 layoffs ago.
- edoceo 3mo ago
  Then how do other processors go over the Visa and MC rails for these transaction types? How does Stripe allow some and then block others?
  - reddalo 3mo ago
    Simply put, Stripe doesn't want to deal with the risk associated with those transaction types.
    - edoceo 3mo ago
      I know it's about risk. Perhaps my point was not clear? Simply put: Stripe selectively applies their own policy about "restricted" transaction types.
      - olalonde 3mo ago
        You said it was about morality, so it was not clear you knew it was actually about risk. Each payment company has to set their own policies because regulations tend to be (intentionally) vague and not all companies have the same risk tolerance. If the legal risks weren't there, Stripe would absolutely accept these categories. You should really complain about the dumb AML regulations instead.
    - mrguyorama 3mo ago
      What do you mean "Stripe doesn't want to deal with the risk"? What risk does Stripe take on in this situation?
  - aiisjustanif 3mo ago
    Which ones? Mastercard banned cannabis related changes before [1] [1]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-26/how-to-buy-pot-not-with-a-mastercard-ma-debit-card-company-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-26/how-to-bu...
    - edoceo 3mo ago
      PayPal lets cannabis adjacent business get paid via MasterCard as a PayPal funding source. Perhaps you are confusing cannabis with cannabis-adjacent business (grow lights, compliance solutions, etc)
root_axis 3mo ago
Why do people think this? Since when do giant corporations care about morals? As usual, everything is about money. You can be sure that part of the interest in a paypal acquisition is paypal's consumer wallet product which allows them to extend into lines of business that are currently constrained by Stripe's model.
- decimalenough 3mo ago
  It's not about morals, it's about regulatory heat and risk. Cannabis in the US remains illegal on the federal level, and the chargeback rates on adult services are through the roof.
  - thephyber 3mo ago
    It's not only about morals. No, chargeback rates are not the only reason banking companies like Mastercard are dubious about adult content. In 2021 they added contractual terms to ensure that adult content uses age verification, has the consent of the participants, and to remove illegal content before it is published at soon after it is reported. But also, the financial industry has a history of discriminating against their customers based in moral reasons (or at minimum bowing to regulatory pressure which stemmed from upstream morality decisions).[1] [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/pa8xy9/is-the-doj-forcing-banks-to-terminate-the-accounts-of-porn-stars https://www.vice.com/en/article/pa8xy9/is-the-doj-forcing-ba...
- edoceo 3mo ago
  Or, because as you say it's money (I agree) the Stripe will put their "morals" in place - with the financial result they reduce risk, get less chargebacks and lower costs - then pass the savings on to the C-suite. Morals, generously interpretation of the usage, was just to indicate that Stripe has a more narrow risk window. Only an idiot would think it was about actual human-grade morals or ethics. Let alone that there were actual morality police.
  - root_axis 3mo ago
    Yes, hence the value of an acquisition that has found a way to service these lines of business very profitably. The tone of your original comment suggests you believe they're going to take over and start shutting off morally unacceptable money printers.
burnte 3mo ago
Stripe can be ridiculously restrictive. A few years ago at a psychiatric company that (among other things) offered therapy, TMS, and also esketamine/IV ketamine that was only offered in office, prescribed by a psychiatrist that has determined it is a medically prudent treatment, and closely monitored. They also offered some seminars during the year that other doctors could pay to attend that counts towards their CE credits per year. We wanted to use Stripe to process credit card payments from doctors who would attend our conferences. Stripe flagged our account for review because they saw "ketamine" on the website. After an investigation, they closed our account because they said they can't allow us to sell ketamine online. I tried, multiple times, to explain that we don't do that and that it would be massively illegal for us to do that. For a month I tried to talk to them, but they wouldn't budge. They would not move away from the idea we were trying to sell ketamine online. They were convinced a 20 year old psychiatry business in 4 states and tens of thousands of patients a year with doctors who were recognized as leaders in their fields wanted to sell illegal drugs online. We signed up for Paypal and never had an issue.
- edoceo 3mo ago
  And yet some on this thread seem to think Stripe wouldn't shut off valid, law abiding paying customers.
  - Aeolun 3mo ago
    We’re a long time from the time Stripe represented freedom from the establishment.
- burnte 3mo ago
  Note: We never had an issue with Paypal and did not sell any pharmaceuticals. Just wanted to be clear on that.
threecheese 3mo ago
This presumes that they won’t maintain those, which would be a valid choice to maintain PayPal’s market penetration (if that’s the goal). Diverse offerings etc
olalonde 3mo ago
It has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with compliance and fraud risk.
- mrguyorama 3mo ago
  What fraud risk?
  - olalonde 3mo ago
    Unauthorized credit card transactions. Adult content, for example, is known to have a high chargeback rates.
    - mrguyorama 3mo ago
      And what do you think happens when a chargeback is issued that would lead to "Risk" for Stripe?
      - deleted 3mo ago
        [deleted]
      - olalonde 3mo ago
        [dead]

by edoceo 3mo ago

3uler 3mo ago

In my experience, having worked at several large PSPs, it is Mastercard and Visa who are the morality police. Stripe are just enforcing the rules insisted on by them, and PayPal forgot about them 3 layoffs ago.

edoceo 3mo ago
Then how do other processors go over the Visa and MC rails for these transaction types? How does Stripe allow some and then block others?
- reddalo 3mo ago
  Simply put, Stripe doesn't want to deal with the risk associated with those transaction types.
  - edoceo 3mo ago
    I know it's about risk. Perhaps my point was not clear? Simply put: Stripe selectively applies their own policy about "restricted" transaction types.
    - olalonde 3mo ago
      You said it was about morality, so it was not clear you knew it was actually about risk. Each payment company has to set their own policies because regulations tend to be (intentionally) vague and not all companies have the same risk tolerance. If the legal risks weren't there, Stripe would absolutely accept these categories. You should really complain about the dumb AML regulations instead.
  - mrguyorama 3mo ago
    What do you mean "Stripe doesn't want to deal with the risk"? What risk does Stripe take on in this situation?
- aiisjustanif 3mo ago
  Which ones? Mastercard banned cannabis related changes before [1] [1]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-26/how-to-buy-pot-not-with-a-mastercard-ma-debit-card-company-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-26/how-to-bu...
  - edoceo 3mo ago
    PayPal lets cannabis adjacent business get paid via MasterCard as a PayPal funding source. Perhaps you are confusing cannabis with cannabis-adjacent business (grow lights, compliance solutions, etc)

root_axis 3mo ago

Why do people think this? Since when do giant corporations care about morals? As usual, everything is about money. You can be sure that part of the interest in a paypal acquisition is paypal's consumer wallet product which allows them to extend into lines of business that are currently constrained by Stripe's model.

decimalenough 3mo ago
It's not about morals, it's about regulatory heat and risk. Cannabis in the US remains illegal on the federal level, and the chargeback rates on adult services are through the roof.
- thephyber 3mo ago
  It's not only about morals. No, chargeback rates are not the only reason banking companies like Mastercard are dubious about adult content. In 2021 they added contractual terms to ensure that adult content uses age verification, has the consent of the participants, and to remove illegal content before it is published at soon after it is reported. But also, the financial industry has a history of discriminating against their customers based in moral reasons (or at minimum bowing to regulatory pressure which stemmed from upstream morality decisions).[1] [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/pa8xy9/is-the-doj-forcing-banks-to-terminate-the-accounts-of-porn-stars https://www.vice.com/en/article/pa8xy9/is-the-doj-forcing-ba...
edoceo 3mo ago
Or, because as you say it's money (I agree) the Stripe will put their "morals" in place - with the financial result they reduce risk, get less chargebacks and lower costs - then pass the savings on to the C-suite. Morals, generously interpretation of the usage, was just to indicate that Stripe has a more narrow risk window. Only an idiot would think it was about actual human-grade morals or ethics. Let alone that there were actual morality police.
- root_axis 3mo ago
  Yes, hence the value of an acquisition that has found a way to service these lines of business very profitably. The tone of your original comment suggests you believe they're going to take over and start shutting off morally unacceptable money printers.

burnte 3mo ago

Stripe can be ridiculously restrictive. A few years ago at a psychiatric company that (among other things) offered therapy, TMS, and also esketamine/IV ketamine that was only offered in office, prescribed by a psychiatrist that has determined it is a medically prudent treatment, and closely monitored. They also offered some seminars during the year that other doctors could pay to attend that counts towards their CE credits per year. We wanted to use Stripe to process credit card payments from doctors who would attend our conferences. Stripe flagged our account for review because they saw "ketamine" on the website. After an investigation, they closed our account because they said they can't allow us to sell ketamine online. I tried, multiple times, to explain that we don't do that and that it would be massively illegal for us to do that. For a month I tried to talk to them, but they wouldn't budge. They would not move away from the idea we were trying to sell ketamine online. They were convinced a 20 year old psychiatry business in 4 states and tens of thousands of patients a year with doctors who were recognized as leaders in their fields wanted to sell illegal drugs online. We signed up for Paypal and never had an issue.

edoceo 3mo ago
And yet some on this thread seem to think Stripe wouldn't shut off valid, law abiding paying customers.
- Aeolun 3mo ago
  We’re a long time from the time Stripe represented freedom from the establishment.
burnte 3mo ago
Note: We never had an issue with Paypal and did not sell any pharmaceuticals. Just wanted to be clear on that.

threecheese 3mo ago

This presumes that they won’t maintain those, which would be a valid choice to maintain PayPal’s market penetration (if that’s the goal). Diverse offerings etc

olalonde 3mo ago

It has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with compliance and fraud risk.

mrguyorama 3mo ago
What fraud risk?
- olalonde 3mo ago
  Unauthorized credit card transactions. Adult content, for example, is known to have a high chargeback rates.
  - mrguyorama 3mo ago
    And what do you think happens when a chargeback is issued that would lead to "Risk" for Stripe?
    - deleted 3mo ago
      [deleted]
    - olalonde 3mo ago
      [dead]