6 ms·

>countries where enforcement is lax As an Indian this is exactly one of the reasons why I am afraid of EV boom. All of that bad stuff, which we are mostly unfa

by qsera 3mo ago

>countries where enforcement is lax As an Indian this is exactly one of the reasons why I am afraid of EV boom. All of that bad stuff, which we are mostly unfamiliar with (in terms of how to handle it properly, because battery tech is always changing) is going to dumped in places like India. And would silently sustain the bad effects for many decades or even more, until it (the bad stuff) somehow reaches some developed country (probably never).

worldsayshi 3mo ago
> places like India I had the impression that India is quickly turning rich enough to say no to things like this.
- anal_reactor 3mo ago
  Never underestimate the poverty of India. India is huge and while in some places there are bubbles of wealth, it's still a third-world country.
- orwin 3mo ago
  India is a lot like Russia in that its people and standards of living are very different from place to place. China, despite a larger size and similar population is more culturally uniform than India, especially once you go in more remote areas. (this is not a diss on India, i think that make the country much more interesting)
  - lostlogin 3mo ago
    > China, despite a larger size and similar population is more culturally uniform than India If rumour is to be believed, this isn’t a coincidence and had been done by the regime.
    - willy_k 3mo ago
      Yes but this sentiment has held true since before the CCP.
pacija 3mo ago
As a Serb, I currently live in a dictatorship actively supported by everyone involved in EV boom. Those who want to profit from mining lithium in Serbia have determined my country should be a mining colony, and they do everything in their power, including financing corrupt murderous regime protested by hundreds of thoudands of Serbs for years, in order to poison our rivers and aral land and extract lithium. https://friendsoftheearth.eu/news/lithium-in-serbia-people-power-topples-corporate-greed/ https://friendsoftheearth.eu/news/lithium-in-serbia-people-p... So far we have been able to pause it, but evil never sleeps. Hopefully we overthrow traitors on next election. Won't be easy as all media turned into propaganda brainwashing machine, protesters are being run over by cars driven by pro-government thugs who are being pardoned by president, and instead of being jailed for attempted murder they get promoted, are being given high political functions, and celebrated as defenders of the nation. Polluted cities getting cleaner for some. Clean rivers and beautiful forests getting poisounous ore pits for others.
- qsera 3mo ago
  >Polluted cities getting cleaner for some. Clean rivers and beautiful forests getting poisounous ore pits for others. Yes, that is how it goes. Right now all the "intellectuals" and "thought leaders" are in EV apologetic mode. This is a window of opportunity for the corporate to maximize bad stuff to maximize profits selling EV.
  - lostlogin 3mo ago
    A depressing thread. We replace the evil of oil with the same behaviour but in new places. I wonder how long it takes for a country to recover from its oil industry?
iberator 3mo ago
who cares? India is very dirty even without any kind of manufacturing - awful mentality of just throwing trash and shit around.
- hgoel 3mo ago
  That attitude is exactly how to prevent things from ever getting better.
cogman10 3mo ago
Well let me ease some of your fears. Lithium batteries are less toxic than most other battery chemistries (including lead acid batteries). The major toxic portion of lithium batteries comes in the form of production, but not the actual materials involved in the battery. The battery tech also isn't changing as much as you might think. Don't get me wrong, it is getting better, but a lot of that isn't really by changing the underlying formula for the batteries, but rather tweaking the processes for creating the structure of the battery. That's not to say that you want to inhale the smoke of a burning lithium battery. But these batteries don't have any heavy metals in them. The materials they do have tend to already be in abundance in the environment. A major part of the reason for that is these batteries do need to be cheap. Heavy metals drive up the price.
- qsera 3mo ago
  You paint a happy path. But the devil is in the details that often come to light only much later. Sure, we could end up with a tech that have really no pollution potential. But there is much higher chance that we would end-up with something bad, that would go into production with a promise of "proper handling and re-cycling", but would never end up getting done...
  - cogman10 3mo ago
    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there was no pollution potential or problems. My point was primarily that the chemicals within the lithium ion batteries are themselves pretty common on the surface and not forever poisons like lead. My other point was that the major issue around these was primarily the chemicals used to purify and refine. Those can be nasty especially if not treated well. But all things considered, the risks and potential damage from mishandling the recycling and production of LiPos is a lot lower than the risks that surround things like recycling lead acid batteries.
    - qsera 3mo ago
      But scale matters too. I wouldn't be too worried if we are not going to eventually replace all fossil fuels with batteries. That is a lot of batteries..

by qsera 3mo ago

worldsayshi 3mo ago

> places like India I had the impression that India is quickly turning rich enough to say no to things like this.

anal_reactor 3mo ago
Never underestimate the poverty of India. India is huge and while in some places there are bubbles of wealth, it's still a third-world country.
orwin 3mo ago
India is a lot like Russia in that its people and standards of living are very different from place to place. China, despite a larger size and similar population is more culturally uniform than India, especially once you go in more remote areas. (this is not a diss on India, i think that make the country much more interesting)
- lostlogin 3mo ago
  > China, despite a larger size and similar population is more culturally uniform than India If rumour is to be believed, this isn’t a coincidence and had been done by the regime.
  - willy_k 3mo ago
    Yes but this sentiment has held true since before the CCP.

pacija 3mo ago

As a Serb, I currently live in a dictatorship actively supported by everyone involved in EV boom. Those who want to profit from mining lithium in Serbia have determined my country should be a mining colony, and they do everything in their power, including financing corrupt murderous regime protested by hundreds of thoudands of Serbs for years, in order to poison our rivers and aral land and extract lithium. https://friendsoftheearth.eu/news/lithium-in-serbia-people-power-topples-corporate-greed/ https://friendsoftheearth.eu/news/lithium-in-serbia-people-p... So far we have been able to pause it, but evil never sleeps. Hopefully we overthrow traitors on next election. Won't be easy as all media turned into propaganda brainwashing machine, protesters are being run over by cars driven by pro-government thugs who are being pardoned by president, and instead of being jailed for attempted murder they get promoted, are being given high political functions, and celebrated as defenders of the nation. Polluted cities getting cleaner for some. Clean rivers and beautiful forests getting poisounous ore pits for others.

qsera 3mo ago
>Polluted cities getting cleaner for some. Clean rivers and beautiful forests getting poisounous ore pits for others. Yes, that is how it goes. Right now all the "intellectuals" and "thought leaders" are in EV apologetic mode. This is a window of opportunity for the corporate to maximize bad stuff to maximize profits selling EV.
- lostlogin 3mo ago
  A depressing thread. We replace the evil of oil with the same behaviour but in new places. I wonder how long it takes for a country to recover from its oil industry?

iberator 3mo ago

who cares? India is very dirty even without any kind of manufacturing - awful mentality of just throwing trash and shit around.

hgoel 3mo ago
That attitude is exactly how to prevent things from ever getting better.

cogman10 3mo ago

Well let me ease some of your fears. Lithium batteries are less toxic than most other battery chemistries (including lead acid batteries). The major toxic portion of lithium batteries comes in the form of production, but not the actual materials involved in the battery. The battery tech also isn't changing as much as you might think. Don't get me wrong, it is getting better, but a lot of that isn't really by changing the underlying formula for the batteries, but rather tweaking the processes for creating the structure of the battery. That's not to say that you want to inhale the smoke of a burning lithium battery. But these batteries don't have any heavy metals in them. The materials they do have tend to already be in abundance in the environment. A major part of the reason for that is these batteries do need to be cheap. Heavy metals drive up the price.

qsera 3mo ago
You paint a happy path. But the devil is in the details that often come to light only much later. Sure, we could end up with a tech that have really no pollution potential. But there is much higher chance that we would end-up with something bad, that would go into production with a promise of "proper handling and re-cycling", but would never end up getting done...
- cogman10 3mo ago
  Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there was no pollution potential or problems. My point was primarily that the chemicals within the lithium ion batteries are themselves pretty common on the surface and not forever poisons like lead. My other point was that the major issue around these was primarily the chemicals used to purify and refine. Those can be nasty especially if not treated well. But all things considered, the risks and potential damage from mishandling the recycling and production of LiPos is a lot lower than the risks that surround things like recycling lead acid batteries.
  - qsera 3mo ago
    But scale matters too. I wouldn't be too worried if we are not going to eventually replace all fossil fuels with batteries. That is a lot of batteries..