4 ms·

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. LLMs do make mistakes but generally with slightly obscure difficult stuff. They're not going to struggle at all with

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. LLMs do make mistakes but generally with slightly obscure difficult stuff. They're not going to struggle at all with things a 4-9 year old is learning. Also it's not like teachers never make confident mistakes.

TonyAlicea10 4mo ago
> They're not going to struggle at all with things a 4-9 year old is learning. Ask them how many r's are in strawberry. > Also it's not like teachers never make confident mistakes. That's an extraordinary false equivalency that is popular around here. Teachers don't make confident mistakes because the student asked the wrong way. Teachers can be held accountable. Teachers can learn. Teachers can love their students.
- Marha01 4mo ago
  > Ask them how many r's are in strawberry. 2024 called and wants its talking points back. > Teachers don't make confident mistakes because the student asked the wrong way. Teachers can be held accountable. Teachers can learn. Teachers can love their students. All of these can be true, and at the same it can be true that a child tutored by a good quality state-of-the-art LLM with a good teaching-focused harness could have better learning outcomes than a child without it. Even if we agreed that a good human teacher is better than a LLM, human teacher's time and attention is limited.
  - TonyAlicea10 4mo ago
    > 2024 called and wants its talking points back. It's a classic example of the kinds of questions LLMs get wrong. There's plenty of others. Not sure your point here. We can easily find things a 4-9 year old will talk about that an LLM will get wrong, hallucinate, etc. > a child tutored by a good quality state-of-the-art LLM with a good teaching-focused harness could have better learning outcomes than a child without it. There's a lot of work being done in 'could'. And it's entirely ignoring the dangers. I'm not saying "no LLMs in education". I'm a technical educator and I give students LLM prompts and agent skills that I've built to help them learn. This isn't that. We're talking about giving an LLM to a 4-9 year old and saying "this is your teacher".
    - blitzar 4mo ago
      > lot of work being done in 'could' if my aunt had wheels, she'd be a bicycle.
    - cindyllm 4mo ago
      [dead]
    - Marha01 4mo ago
      > It's a classic example of the kinds of questions LLMs get wrong. There's plenty of others. Not sure your point here. We can easily find things a 4-9 year old will talk about that an LLM will get wrong, hallucinate, etc. My point is that the hallucination rate of modern LLMs, while not zero, is so low that this is no longer an issue in practice. > There's a lot of work being done in 'could'. And it's entirely ignoring the dangers. I agree that there are some risks. But for many children, the alternative is not human teacher, but no teacher at all. This considerably changes the risk-benefit calculus, IMHO.
      - TonyAlicea10 4mo ago
        > My point is that the hallucination rate of modern LLMs, while not zero, is so low that this is no longer an issue in practice. That's just not true. Talk to an LLM about a subject you know deeply. They make up things all the time.
        senordevnyc 4mo ago
        With stuff that a 4-9 year old is going to be learning? Color me skeptical.
        TonyAlicea10 4mo ago
        You’re applying human cognition expectations to an LLM. Just because the topic is simple to a human doesn’t mean it improves the likelihood the LLM will behave better. It’s all inference to the machine.
  - lifeformed 4mo ago
    This assumes that children's learning is solely about correctness and obtaining information. There is a whole universe of other considerations, like interacting with other people, with adults, with fallible authority figures. Having a conversation with a teacher and getting the wrong answer teaches you far more about being a human being and living in a human society, than getting facts back from a screen. Yes, teachers being incorrect is something that should be improved, but reducing human interaction is not an improvement.
- IshKebab 4mo ago
  > There are 3 letter *"r"*s in "strawberry." > > Spelled out: s t r a w b e r r y → the r's are the 3rd, 8th, and 9th letters. > Teachers don't make confident mistakes because the student asked the wrong way. I don't see why the mechanism of being wrong matters. If anything it's worse when teachers are reliably wrong independently of how you ask the question. > Teachers can be held accountable. lol no. Have you ever tried correcting a teacher? > Teachers can learn. Good teachers can learn. The ones that make confident mistakes don't. Anyway no learning is needed for 4-9 year old education. > Teachers can love their students. That's just such a weird point to make. It is great that my kids' primary school teachers are super kind and loving. But it's not what they're for, and it's definitely not what AI tutors are for. Nobody is claiming this will replace a hug from a parent.
  - TonyAlicea10 4mo ago
    > That's just such a weird point to make. No, it's not. The claim that "teacher's make mistakes too" suggests that AI is equivalent to a human teacher in value. I posit other ways in which a human teacher is potentially more valuable. Also, teachers who love their students tend to want to educate them well. > lol no. Have you ever tried correcting a teacher? Do you mean as a student? If so, that's a different dynamic. Because teachers certainly have accountability processes in many institutions.
  - TonyAlicea10 4mo ago
    > Anyway no learning is needed for 4-9 year old education. This is an extraordinarily naive statement. Learning how to teach well takes a lifelong commitment. A topic being basic for an adult does not mean it is easier to teach to a child. In many ways it makes it harder.
    - BatFastard 4mo ago
      Indeed there are different kinds of learning, which the poster is not aware of. No booking learning is needed for 4-9 year old's. But learning patience, understanding, empathy are life long pursuits.
  - 4mo ago
news_hacker 4mo ago
> They're not going to struggle at all with things a 4-9 year old is learning Children ask some incredibly deep questions, I would not sell them short.
like_any_other 4mo ago
"Mister LLM, what should I think about <controversial political topic>?" Say what you will about the biases of teachers, but I'll take them any day over the propaganda [1] some foreign megacorporation has inculcated into its AI. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48664834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48664834
windexh8er 4mo ago
This is wildly dangerous comment and I'm glad to see it downvoted. I have 2 kids. Both of them went through early grades during COVID. The change in learning and dislike of school was immense during that time-frame. My eldest missed out on the most and it's very clear that their age and time with which they should have been in-class and in-person impacted them. Not only the screen-time aspect of this ignorance, but the sheer inconsiderate approach to what a model even is. It's not a human, it can't cope or understand a child's current state of being. And if you think it can then stay away from K12 tech, please. Teachers make mistakes, yes. But can you swap a teacher with another teacher without a student knowing? No. You can with a model and that is dangerous. And not only the company. If Ello wants to they can move students to a Chinese model and nobody would know the difference. Or the OAI model they've chosen can be diluted or changed without Ello even knowing. Kids deserve better. I truly hope Ello fails in its mission because companies shoving models into K12 are truly going to be the stain we all have to deal with decades from now. I am beyond grateful that my kids learned reading the "old fashioned" way and it speaks volumes that both of them read constantly. Their peers and friend's kids who are addicted to YouTube, TikTok and other socials struggle reading. It's so very obvious to anyone who has kids at this age these days and I think a lot of parents are now realizing their mistakes and are often times embarrassed when they see these kids side-by-side in public displays of their work. I keep seeing this over and over. I am on a parent technology group at my kids school and it is a monumental effort to keep these "technology directors" in check. They are some of the easiest to sell to given they go into conversations with companies like Ello with nothing but trust. They don't consider data, privacy and security of these students or very rarely. They often don't understand relationships with respect to technology and the areas where issues can surface or be present. I hate everything about this blog post and, again, I truly hope Ello fails before they contribute to the continued degradation of these kids early lives.
- Marha01 4mo ago
  > Teachers make mistakes, yes. But can you swap a teacher with another teacher without a student knowing? No, you can't. You can with a model and that is dangerous. And not only the company. If Ello wants to they can move students to a Chinese model and nobody would know the difference. Or the OAI model they've chosen can be dilluted or changed without Ello even knowing. Sounds like this issue could be solved by an open-source teaching harness.

TonyAlicea10 4mo ago

> They're not going to struggle at all with things a 4-9 year old is learning. Ask them how many r's are in strawberry. > Also it's not like teachers never make confident mistakes. That's an extraordinary false equivalency that is popular around here. Teachers don't make confident mistakes because the student asked the wrong way. Teachers can be held accountable. Teachers can learn. Teachers can love their students.

Marha01 4mo ago
> Ask them how many r's are in strawberry. 2024 called and wants its talking points back. > Teachers don't make confident mistakes because the student asked the wrong way. Teachers can be held accountable. Teachers can learn. Teachers can love their students. All of these can be true, and at the same it can be true that a child tutored by a good quality state-of-the-art LLM with a good teaching-focused harness could have better learning outcomes than a child without it. Even if we agreed that a good human teacher is better than a LLM, human teacher's time and attention is limited.
- TonyAlicea10 4mo ago
  > 2024 called and wants its talking points back. It's a classic example of the kinds of questions LLMs get wrong. There's plenty of others. Not sure your point here. We can easily find things a 4-9 year old will talk about that an LLM will get wrong, hallucinate, etc. > a child tutored by a good quality state-of-the-art LLM with a good teaching-focused harness could have better learning outcomes than a child without it. There's a lot of work being done in 'could'. And it's entirely ignoring the dangers. I'm not saying "no LLMs in education". I'm a technical educator and I give students LLM prompts and agent skills that I've built to help them learn. This isn't that. We're talking about giving an LLM to a 4-9 year old and saying "this is your teacher".
  - blitzar 4mo ago
    > lot of work being done in 'could' if my aunt had wheels, she'd be a bicycle.
  - cindyllm 4mo ago
    [dead]
  - Marha01 4mo ago
    > It's a classic example of the kinds of questions LLMs get wrong. There's plenty of others. Not sure your point here. We can easily find things a 4-9 year old will talk about that an LLM will get wrong, hallucinate, etc. My point is that the hallucination rate of modern LLMs, while not zero, is so low that this is no longer an issue in practice. > There's a lot of work being done in 'could'. And it's entirely ignoring the dangers. I agree that there are some risks. But for many children, the alternative is not human teacher, but no teacher at all. This considerably changes the risk-benefit calculus, IMHO.
    - TonyAlicea10 4mo ago
      > My point is that the hallucination rate of modern LLMs, while not zero, is so low that this is no longer an issue in practice. That's just not true. Talk to an LLM about a subject you know deeply. They make up things all the time.
      - senordevnyc 4mo ago
        With stuff that a 4-9 year old is going to be learning? Color me skeptical.
        TonyAlicea10 4mo ago
        You’re applying human cognition expectations to an LLM. Just because the topic is simple to a human doesn’t mean it improves the likelihood the LLM will behave better. It’s all inference to the machine.
- lifeformed 4mo ago
  This assumes that children's learning is solely about correctness and obtaining information. There is a whole universe of other considerations, like interacting with other people, with adults, with fallible authority figures. Having a conversation with a teacher and getting the wrong answer teaches you far more about being a human being and living in a human society, than getting facts back from a screen. Yes, teachers being incorrect is something that should be improved, but reducing human interaction is not an improvement.
IshKebab 4mo ago
> There are 3 letter *"r"*s in "strawberry." > > Spelled out: s t r a w b e r r y → the r's are the 3rd, 8th, and 9th letters. > Teachers don't make confident mistakes because the student asked the wrong way. I don't see why the mechanism of being wrong matters. If anything it's worse when teachers are reliably wrong independently of how you ask the question. > Teachers can be held accountable. lol no. Have you ever tried correcting a teacher? > Teachers can learn. Good teachers can learn. The ones that make confident mistakes don't. Anyway no learning is needed for 4-9 year old education. > Teachers can love their students. That's just such a weird point to make. It is great that my kids' primary school teachers are super kind and loving. But it's not what they're for, and it's definitely not what AI tutors are for. Nobody is claiming this will replace a hug from a parent.
- TonyAlicea10 4mo ago
  > That's just such a weird point to make. No, it's not. The claim that "teacher's make mistakes too" suggests that AI is equivalent to a human teacher in value. I posit other ways in which a human teacher is potentially more valuable. Also, teachers who love their students tend to want to educate them well. > lol no. Have you ever tried correcting a teacher? Do you mean as a student? If so, that's a different dynamic. Because teachers certainly have accountability processes in many institutions.
- TonyAlicea10 4mo ago
  > Anyway no learning is needed for 4-9 year old education. This is an extraordinarily naive statement. Learning how to teach well takes a lifelong commitment. A topic being basic for an adult does not mean it is easier to teach to a child. In many ways it makes it harder.
  - BatFastard 4mo ago
    Indeed there are different kinds of learning, which the poster is not aware of. No booking learning is needed for 4-9 year old's. But learning patience, understanding, empathy are life long pursuits.
- 4mo ago

news_hacker 4mo ago

> They're not going to struggle at all with things a 4-9 year old is learning Children ask some incredibly deep questions, I would not sell them short.

like_any_other 4mo ago

"Mister LLM, what should I think about <controversial political topic>?" Say what you will about the biases of teachers, but I'll take them any day over the propaganda [1] some foreign megacorporation has inculcated into its AI. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48664834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48664834

windexh8er 4mo ago

This is wildly dangerous comment and I'm glad to see it downvoted. I have 2 kids. Both of them went through early grades during COVID. The change in learning and dislike of school was immense during that time-frame. My eldest missed out on the most and it's very clear that their age and time with which they should have been in-class and in-person impacted them. Not only the screen-time aspect of this ignorance, but the sheer inconsiderate approach to what a model even is. It's not a human, it can't cope or understand a child's current state of being. And if you think it can then stay away from K12 tech, please. Teachers make mistakes, yes. But can you swap a teacher with another teacher without a student knowing? No. You can with a model and that is dangerous. And not only the company. If Ello wants to they can move students to a Chinese model and nobody would know the difference. Or the OAI model they've chosen can be diluted or changed without Ello even knowing. Kids deserve better. I truly hope Ello fails in its mission because companies shoving models into K12 are truly going to be the stain we all have to deal with decades from now. I am beyond grateful that my kids learned reading the "old fashioned" way and it speaks volumes that both of them read constantly. Their peers and friend's kids who are addicted to YouTube, TikTok and other socials struggle reading. It's so very obvious to anyone who has kids at this age these days and I think a lot of parents are now realizing their mistakes and are often times embarrassed when they see these kids side-by-side in public displays of their work. I keep seeing this over and over. I am on a parent technology group at my kids school and it is a monumental effort to keep these "technology directors" in check. They are some of the easiest to sell to given they go into conversations with companies like Ello with nothing but trust. They don't consider data, privacy and security of these students or very rarely. They often don't understand relationships with respect to technology and the areas where issues can surface or be present. I hate everything about this blog post and, again, I truly hope Ello fails before they contribute to the continued degradation of these kids early lives.

Marha01 4mo ago
> Teachers make mistakes, yes. But can you swap a teacher with another teacher without a student knowing? No, you can't. You can with a model and that is dangerous. And not only the company. If Ello wants to they can move students to a Chinese model and nobody would know the difference. Or the OAI model they've chosen can be dilluted or changed without Ello even knowing. Sounds like this issue could be solved by an open-source teaching harness.