5 ms·

China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks, but I guess chinese researchers won't make it to the US and this already will have a great effect on th

by est31 3mo ago

China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks, but I guess chinese researchers won't make it to the US and this already will have a great effect on the chinese economy. Europe is in its own set of problems and it is not in the same situation that US used to be after WW2 (only major economy not affected by bombing). Europe's problems: * active major war in Ukraine (lasting longer than Axis/Soviet war in WW2) * energy supply issues (unlike US it's not energy sufficient and the places that supply it with energy are involved with wars) * a wall of people aging away from employment and into doctor's and hospital waiting rooms (forcing less investment into research and roads/bridges/railway, more towards stabilizing pensions, healthcare) * major pieces of the european export economy are being replaced by China (eg chinese car brands eating the lunch of european car brands).

tasuki 3mo ago
> China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks What do you mean? I've never been to China, but know quite a few non-han white Europeans who lived there for both shorter and longer periods of time. Some studied, others worked there.
- John23832 3mo ago
  In total, China has roughly the same amount of immigrants as Ireland. China is also objectively becoming more closed, not more open.
  - coldtea 3mo ago
    The amount of skilled immigrants, researchers and engineers, matters for this comparison. Not just the total amount including random people arriving at the coast.
    - John23832 3mo ago
      No, total immigration matters. Human progress is always subject to the law large numbers. Skilled polish engineers don't want to be the only polish person in the entire country. They want food, culture, community that reminds them of home. Even as they assimilate. That's why the American melting pot works well. It encourages enclaves that touch one another. China is the opposite of that. You are hard hammered into the Han-ness, immediately. The language, the writing (which is a HUGE hurdle), the food, the way of life.
      - dataflow 3mo ago
        > Even as they assimilate. That's why the American melting pot works well. I feel like a lot of Americans disagree on these nowadays though, no? Source: just look at recent campaigns and elections.
        John23832 3mo ago
        People can feel how they want to feel, campaigns are run on feelings and not facts. Just because Trump says Haitians are eating cats and dogs doesn't make it true. The Mormons of Utah, the Cajun/French of Louisiana, the Norwegians in the Dakotas, the Scotch Irish of everywhere, and the Amish are all (non-brown) examples of enclaves existing in the US. Nobody says that they are not assimilating well. We let them live their lives because personal liberty used to be a thing here.
        kevin_thibedeau 3mo ago
        A large number of those people are only a few generations removed from immigrant ancestors.
        hgoel 3mo ago
        In America there's a very sharp geographical distinction between which people oppose the melting pot and which see it as a core part of the American experience. People from the big immigrant cities like NYC, SF, LA are more likely to hold the latter position.
      - losvedir 3mo ago
        > American melting pot For what it's worth, this is the terminology I learned in school decades ago, but I don't think it's preferred anymore. My daughter has a book that calls it a "salad" instead (mixed but retaining their respective properties). I'm probably just old and crotchety but I like that way less.
        tialaramex 3mo ago
        Maybe. One thing to like about the "melting pot" analogy is that people from one culture exposed to a different dominant culture don't just retain their distinct character as if it was like the pieces of carrot in a salad, they are altered by this experience. Chicken Tikka Masala didn't exist in India. And if you went to any British restaurant in 1900 they wouldn't serve this dish either. But in a British Indian restaurant today it's a staple because at some point (when and by who is debated) somebody in one of those restaurants was like "We should make a sauce to match local tastes" and it was created.
    - Cthulhu_ 3mo ago
      This is a hugely loaded statement, but that aside, China is not open to immigrants, that was the original thesis and that hasn't been disproven yet.
      - coldtea 3mo ago
        That's fine, since nobody attempted to disprove that in the first place. The idea that they're at a disadvantage to Ireland in that aspect because the latter has more numbers-wise was what was addressed. They might very well not be open. Or they might be open in a selective and cautious way, which would be more prudent than merely being open for all.
      - tasuki 3mo ago
        Likewise you haven't disproven my thesis that China is not closed to immigrants. A good friend of mine (white European) was approached by a Chinese company and now works in China. I'll ask him how hard the paperwork was the next time I meet him, but I have a feeling his employer did the bulk of it.
  - thenthenthen 3mo ago
    100% becoming more closed. I have been trying to live in China for over 15 years… I finally managed the last 3 years, but its an forever struggle/gamble each year and each year the requirements get tougher (to get a work/residence permit). But yeah.. same goes for Europe
- est31 3mo ago
  I've never been to China either. It's a huge country and it probably depends on where you are (hong kong probably friendlier than a random place in the mainland), but from what I heard/read: * language issues. Many chinese don't speak english. Also a problem in many european countries (esp latin and slavic speaking ones), but at least the european languages are easier to learn. Compare this to Amsterdam, Goteborg, Berlin-Mitte or Kopenhagen where everyone speaks english. * citizenship is one of the hardest to get in the world. * I heard complaints about onboarding into the chinese app/digital ID ecosystem.
  - karagenit 3mo ago
    Tangent, but I’m really curious what country you’re from that uses the endonym for Göteborg but then also spells the capital of Denmark like Kopenhagen?
    - tremon 3mo ago
      I'm pretty certain all languages do that. It's fairly common to bastardize/assimilate the names of important cities and/or trade hubs into the local language, but leave smaller names unchanged. That's why it's Milano/Milan, Venezia/Venice but Cagliari doesn't have an americanized name; that's why it's Moskva/Moscow but still Irkutsk; Warszawa/Warsaw, Gdansk/Danzig (in German), Katowice/Kattowitz (in German), etc.
    - est31 3mo ago
      I'm born and raised German, and above I mostly used the German ways of writing the town names (stripping the umlaut). Which as it turns out are not the same way you'd write it in english, interesting!
  - thenthenthen 3mo ago
    On HK you can get permanent residence after I believe 5 years of working in there. That said… you will need a HIGH paying job to be able to achieve that. China mainland has a similar thing (‘green card’) but the requirements are kinda unobtainable for anyone below CEO of Starbucks level
  - deleted 3mo ago
- Cthulhu_ 3mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_China has a good summary (click through to its sources); as of 2020 there were about 1.5 million immigrants in China, just under 600K of which from Hong Kong/Macao/Taiwan; as of 2023 there's 12.000 people with permanent residency cards, which would be the expats that live and work there without nationalizing. For comparsion, in the US as of 2023, nearly 48 million inhabitants (14.3% of total) are foreign-born (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States#Demography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat...). Or the Netherlands, 4.4 million of its ~18 million inhabitants are from abroad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Netherlands#National_origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Netherland...).
  - throwwwll 3mo ago
    [dead]
  - Someone 3mo ago
    > For comparsion, in the US as of 2023, nearly 48 million inhabitants (14.3% of total) are foreign-born (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat...). Or the Netherlands, 4.4 million of its ~18 million inhabitants are from abroad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Netherland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Netherland...). The relative population size of those countries likely plays a role there. Split China into 4 countries, each with a population about equal to that of the USA, and I bet that number for China goes up significantly. Split it into 75 countries each the size of the Netherlands, and it would go up even further (some people moving home within Beijing would emigrate)
- Zigurd 3mo ago
  Though it was years ago now, I did spend a couple of years frequently traveling to China for fairly long stays. I learned enough Mandarin to get by on my own. The "scariest" thing is realizing you might have to walk for an hour in a random direction to come across a landmark like a known metro station or a hotel where you can get a taxi and have the concierge translate your desired destination. I was mostly in first tier cities, though I did travel through some more obscure places. The worst hostility I experienced was 5 foot tall grandma with sharp elbows determined to cut in line in front of the big stupid foreigner who is passive aggressively placing his wheelie bag in her way. If you're curious, just go. The cities are amazing, the people are friendly. Even in Beijing you can easily avoid the tourist traps. While it's not as perfectly safe as Japan or Taiwan, I spent a lot of jet lag recovery time wandering the streets late at night. Once I spent half an hour in a taxi garage at 2am at some unknown location after a 45 minute misdirected taxi ride, arranging a ride to my intended hotel. I think that's about as lost as one can get and it was fine.
  - WarmWash 3mo ago
    I think the concern is more along the lines of social integration than criminal hostility. Japan for instance has basically zero crime, and tons of tourists, but is notoriously impossible to ever become "Japanese" as an outsider.
    - Zigurd 3mo ago
      I have to wonder who aspires to become Japanese or Chinese, or even the superficially plausible goal of me becoming German. It just wouldn't enter my mind. As for social integration, the Chinese people I met seemed astonished and pleased that I could make any headway with the language or the food.
jasonhong 3mo ago
Whether China is immigration friendly or not is debatable. However, here's a recent announcement from last week: Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Omar M. Yaghi joins Tsinghua University full-time https://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/en/info/1244/14984.htm https://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/en/info/1244/14984.htm
- dzonga 3mo ago
  unfortunately people won't see how bad this is. most of the A.I researchers are already Chinese. now imagine other talented researchers on their way to earn Nobels - they're already in China & other countries but not visible yet. this corrupt US administration fxxked the US in ways that will be felt for decades.
  - esafak 3mo ago
    It's good for dangerous people to be denied resources. Scientists leaving Germany turned the tide. edit: I was not suggesting China was the good side; Europe is least dangerous today.
    - LunaSea 3mo ago
      Both sides are dangerous
- Levitz 3mo ago
  >Whether China is immigration friendly or not is debatable. Compared to the US or Europe? No it's not debatable. No dual citizenship at all, most probably no citizenship. Harder residency. Good luck bringing family there. Not going to even mention the obscene difference in racism OR the language barrier, both of which are enormous factors.
  - fakedang 3mo ago
    I doubt many of the researchers migrating even want Chinese citizenship and the chains that come along with it, so why do most people (presumably Americans) keep harping on and on about it? Once you're invited by the CCP for your exceptional research background, you're literally given an open chequebook for both your personal compensation and your future research endeavors. You're allowed to take your family along with you too, and the language barrier doesn't translate in the professional setting. Racism is a non-issue since I doubt these researchers will even be interacting with elements of that segment of Chinese Han society, unless they choose to.
VWWHFSfQ 3mo ago
> Europe is in its own set of problems and it is not in the same situation that US used to be after WW2 (only major economy not affected by bombing). Both Japan and South Korea were equally devastated and yet they managed to build world-class technology industries in the subsequent decades. I think the problems with Europe and the EU are a lot deeper than that.
- palata 3mo ago
  A lot deeper than active wars and energy supply issues??? Europe's economy has been slowing down since 2007, which is the peak of conventional oil. The problem of Europe is that is doesn't have access to abundant energy like the US does. The US likes to think that they have a better economy because they are smarter/work harder, but the reality is simple: abundant energy makes the economy.
  - WarmWash 3mo ago
    The problem Europe has is an allergy to people making money. Oil prices aren't what drove every Euro tech worker to San Francisco for 25 years.
    - palata 3mo ago
      Since 2007, the European economy is in contraction if you look at physical indicators like "how much stuff do trucks move" or "what area is being built". That correlates directly with the peak of conventional oil and the fact that oil has been harder to get in Europe since 2007.
  - pjerem 3mo ago
    If you measure economical performance with PIB per capita, yeah, for sure, US has a better economy. If you measure with anything else useful like (healthy) life expectancy or happiness level, state of the democracy, etc... like if you think the the economy must serve the people and not the other way, I'd say Europe is way more successful despite the real issues. Actually, I'm baffled at how US performs poorly for their people given they have abundant energy. Norway and Iceland also have abundant energy and their people are seeing the benefits.
dataflow 3mo ago
> Europe's problems: [...] Would it be silly to add "general lack of air conditioning" to that list? I imagine at some point it inevitably stops being a joke and starts being a real problem. Have we reached that point yet? [1] [2] [1] https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-frances-june-heatwave-caused-more-than-2700-heat-related-deaths/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-frances-june-heatwave... [2] https://www.dw.com/en/heat-wave-european-countries-report-3700-excess-deaths/a-77823303 https://www.dw.com/en/heat-wave-european-countries-report-37...
- pjerem 3mo ago
  Europe is lacking AC because we never had to deal with 30°C at night before the last 5-10 years. And for the regions where we needed to (like, around the Mediterranean), guess what, AC is everywhere there. You know what, me, an European, just received this morning ? The AC unit I ordered. It's not hard to install AC in Europe, it's just that until a few years ago, we never needed it. The only real blocker today is when you are living in an apartment and the condominium council refuses AC installation for esthetical reasons, but it's something that can change (either by the vote of co-owners, or by law if needed). And if you are renting, you are stuck until the legislation changes and forces owners to provide summer comfort the same way they must provide heating in winter.
  - weberer 3mo ago
    >It's not hard to install AC in Europe Its orders of magnitude harder. When I lived in the USA, I could just pick up a $200 window unit and have it installed within minutes. Every single person had air conditioning. Now I live in Finland where the windows are the worst designed windows I've ever seen. They are thin, tall windows that open vertically on hinges like doors. So rain gets in, and its impossible to install a window AC or even a box fan. You're forced to either install a mini split ($1000+) or central air. And neither options are available for renters. Really, the #1 priority should be trying to bring American style sliding windows to Europe. Then everything else can fall into place downstream of that.
    - 3mo ago
sajithdilshan 3mo ago
Europe is not immigration friendly as well if you don't speak the native language, of course one could live in an English speaking bubble, but I'm not sure how feasible it would be in Academia.
- lukeinator42 3mo ago
  It's extremely feasible. English is the defacto language of most research in the EU. I spent some time in Italy during my masters degree and know lots of people who have gone on to research or university instructor jobs in various countries in the EU. You definitely have to learn at least some of the local language for day-to-day life though.
- neonstatic 3mo ago
  Likely not a problem, especially in Academia. A family member is doing a Phd in Poland, everyone is English speaking and they have lots of students from all over the world. Could be worse in places like France, where English proficiency is historically lower, but I doubt it would be a factor in higher education.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 3mo ago
  Politically speaking, the top polling party in Germany refuses to have a discussion about neo-nazis in its ranks, and boasts that "we are growing stronger and larger all the time": https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rwflha_NkVE https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rwflha_NkVE Similar things are going on in the UK (Reform/Restore) and France, where most projections have the National Rally candidate winning the next presidential election: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2027_French_presidential_election#Second_round https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2027_F... Anti-immigrant sentiments are surging all around the world: Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. Switzerland nearly passed an immigration freeze far more draconian than anything Trump ever proposed.
  - indiangenz 3mo ago
    [flagged]
drnick1 3mo ago
You forgot, amomg others, increasingly non-white popation due to laughable immigration policies; absurd environmental policies that result in high energy prices; red tape and high taxes in every aspect of life.

by est31 3mo ago

tasuki 3mo ago

> China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks What do you mean? I've never been to China, but know quite a few non-han white Europeans who lived there for both shorter and longer periods of time. Some studied, others worked there.

John23832 3mo ago
In total, China has roughly the same amount of immigrants as Ireland. China is also objectively becoming more closed, not more open.
- coldtea 3mo ago
  The amount of skilled immigrants, researchers and engineers, matters for this comparison. Not just the total amount including random people arriving at the coast.
  - John23832 3mo ago
    No, total immigration matters. Human progress is always subject to the law large numbers. Skilled polish engineers don't want to be the only polish person in the entire country. They want food, culture, community that reminds them of home. Even as they assimilate. That's why the American melting pot works well. It encourages enclaves that touch one another. China is the opposite of that. You are hard hammered into the Han-ness, immediately. The language, the writing (which is a HUGE hurdle), the food, the way of life.
    - dataflow 3mo ago
      > Even as they assimilate. That's why the American melting pot works well. I feel like a lot of Americans disagree on these nowadays though, no? Source: just look at recent campaigns and elections.
      - John23832 3mo ago
        People can feel how they want to feel, campaigns are run on feelings and not facts. Just because Trump says Haitians are eating cats and dogs doesn't make it true. The Mormons of Utah, the Cajun/French of Louisiana, the Norwegians in the Dakotas, the Scotch Irish of everywhere, and the Amish are all (non-brown) examples of enclaves existing in the US. Nobody says that they are not assimilating well. We let them live their lives because personal liberty used to be a thing here.
      - kevin_thibedeau 3mo ago
        A large number of those people are only a few generations removed from immigrant ancestors.
      - hgoel 3mo ago
        In America there's a very sharp geographical distinction between which people oppose the melting pot and which see it as a core part of the American experience. People from the big immigrant cities like NYC, SF, LA are more likely to hold the latter position.
    - losvedir 3mo ago
      > American melting pot For what it's worth, this is the terminology I learned in school decades ago, but I don't think it's preferred anymore. My daughter has a book that calls it a "salad" instead (mixed but retaining their respective properties). I'm probably just old and crotchety but I like that way less.
      - tialaramex 3mo ago
        Maybe. One thing to like about the "melting pot" analogy is that people from one culture exposed to a different dominant culture don't just retain their distinct character as if it was like the pieces of carrot in a salad, they are altered by this experience. Chicken Tikka Masala didn't exist in India. And if you went to any British restaurant in 1900 they wouldn't serve this dish either. But in a British Indian restaurant today it's a staple because at some point (when and by who is debated) somebody in one of those restaurants was like "We should make a sauce to match local tastes" and it was created.
  - Cthulhu_ 3mo ago
    This is a hugely loaded statement, but that aside, China is not open to immigrants, that was the original thesis and that hasn't been disproven yet.
    - coldtea 3mo ago
      That's fine, since nobody attempted to disprove that in the first place. The idea that they're at a disadvantage to Ireland in that aspect because the latter has more numbers-wise was what was addressed. They might very well not be open. Or they might be open in a selective and cautious way, which would be more prudent than merely being open for all.
    - tasuki 3mo ago
      Likewise you haven't disproven my thesis that China is not closed to immigrants. A good friend of mine (white European) was approached by a Chinese company and now works in China. I'll ask him how hard the paperwork was the next time I meet him, but I have a feeling his employer did the bulk of it.
- thenthenthen 3mo ago
  100% becoming more closed. I have been trying to live in China for over 15 years… I finally managed the last 3 years, but its an forever struggle/gamble each year and each year the requirements get tougher (to get a work/residence permit). But yeah.. same goes for Europe
est31 3mo ago
I've never been to China either. It's a huge country and it probably depends on where you are (hong kong probably friendlier than a random place in the mainland), but from what I heard/read: * language issues. Many chinese don't speak english. Also a problem in many european countries (esp latin and slavic speaking ones), but at least the european languages are easier to learn. Compare this to Amsterdam, Goteborg, Berlin-Mitte or Kopenhagen where everyone speaks english. * citizenship is one of the hardest to get in the world. * I heard complaints about onboarding into the chinese app/digital ID ecosystem.
- karagenit 3mo ago
  Tangent, but I’m really curious what country you’re from that uses the endonym for Göteborg but then also spells the capital of Denmark like Kopenhagen?
  - tremon 3mo ago
    I'm pretty certain all languages do that. It's fairly common to bastardize/assimilate the names of important cities and/or trade hubs into the local language, but leave smaller names unchanged. That's why it's Milano/Milan, Venezia/Venice but Cagliari doesn't have an americanized name; that's why it's Moskva/Moscow but still Irkutsk; Warszawa/Warsaw, Gdansk/Danzig (in German), Katowice/Kattowitz (in German), etc.
  - est31 3mo ago
    I'm born and raised German, and above I mostly used the German ways of writing the town names (stripping the umlaut). Which as it turns out are not the same way you'd write it in english, interesting!
- thenthenthen 3mo ago
  On HK you can get permanent residence after I believe 5 years of working in there. That said… you will need a HIGH paying job to be able to achieve that. China mainland has a similar thing (‘green card’) but the requirements are kinda unobtainable for anyone below CEO of Starbucks level
- deleted 3mo ago
Cthulhu_ 3mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_China has a good summary (click through to its sources); as of 2020 there were about 1.5 million immigrants in China, just under 600K of which from Hong Kong/Macao/Taiwan; as of 2023 there's 12.000 people with permanent residency cards, which would be the expats that live and work there without nationalizing. For comparsion, in the US as of 2023, nearly 48 million inhabitants (14.3% of total) are foreign-born (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States#Demography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat...). Or the Netherlands, 4.4 million of its ~18 million inhabitants are from abroad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Netherlands#National_origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Netherland...).
- throwwwll 3mo ago
  [dead]
- Someone 3mo ago
  > For comparsion, in the US as of 2023, nearly 48 million inhabitants (14.3% of total) are foreign-born (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat...). Or the Netherlands, 4.4 million of its ~18 million inhabitants are from abroad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Netherland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Netherland...). The relative population size of those countries likely plays a role there. Split China into 4 countries, each with a population about equal to that of the USA, and I bet that number for China goes up significantly. Split it into 75 countries each the size of the Netherlands, and it would go up even further (some people moving home within Beijing would emigrate)
Zigurd 3mo ago
Though it was years ago now, I did spend a couple of years frequently traveling to China for fairly long stays. I learned enough Mandarin to get by on my own. The "scariest" thing is realizing you might have to walk for an hour in a random direction to come across a landmark like a known metro station or a hotel where you can get a taxi and have the concierge translate your desired destination. I was mostly in first tier cities, though I did travel through some more obscure places. The worst hostility I experienced was 5 foot tall grandma with sharp elbows determined to cut in line in front of the big stupid foreigner who is passive aggressively placing his wheelie bag in her way. If you're curious, just go. The cities are amazing, the people are friendly. Even in Beijing you can easily avoid the tourist traps. While it's not as perfectly safe as Japan or Taiwan, I spent a lot of jet lag recovery time wandering the streets late at night. Once I spent half an hour in a taxi garage at 2am at some unknown location after a 45 minute misdirected taxi ride, arranging a ride to my intended hotel. I think that's about as lost as one can get and it was fine.
- WarmWash 3mo ago
  I think the concern is more along the lines of social integration than criminal hostility. Japan for instance has basically zero crime, and tons of tourists, but is notoriously impossible to ever become "Japanese" as an outsider.
  - Zigurd 3mo ago
    I have to wonder who aspires to become Japanese or Chinese, or even the superficially plausible goal of me becoming German. It just wouldn't enter my mind. As for social integration, the Chinese people I met seemed astonished and pleased that I could make any headway with the language or the food.

jasonhong 3mo ago

Whether China is immigration friendly or not is debatable. However, here's a recent announcement from last week: Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Omar M. Yaghi joins Tsinghua University full-time https://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/en/info/1244/14984.htm https://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/en/info/1244/14984.htm

dzonga 3mo ago
unfortunately people won't see how bad this is. most of the A.I researchers are already Chinese. now imagine other talented researchers on their way to earn Nobels - they're already in China & other countries but not visible yet. this corrupt US administration fxxked the US in ways that will be felt for decades.
- esafak 3mo ago
  It's good for dangerous people to be denied resources. Scientists leaving Germany turned the tide. edit: I was not suggesting China was the good side; Europe is least dangerous today.
  - LunaSea 3mo ago
    Both sides are dangerous
Levitz 3mo ago
>Whether China is immigration friendly or not is debatable. Compared to the US or Europe? No it's not debatable. No dual citizenship at all, most probably no citizenship. Harder residency. Good luck bringing family there. Not going to even mention the obscene difference in racism OR the language barrier, both of which are enormous factors.
- fakedang 3mo ago
  I doubt many of the researchers migrating even want Chinese citizenship and the chains that come along with it, so why do most people (presumably Americans) keep harping on and on about it? Once you're invited by the CCP for your exceptional research background, you're literally given an open chequebook for both your personal compensation and your future research endeavors. You're allowed to take your family along with you too, and the language barrier doesn't translate in the professional setting. Racism is a non-issue since I doubt these researchers will even be interacting with elements of that segment of Chinese Han society, unless they choose to.

VWWHFSfQ 3mo ago

> Europe is in its own set of problems and it is not in the same situation that US used to be after WW2 (only major economy not affected by bombing). Both Japan and South Korea were equally devastated and yet they managed to build world-class technology industries in the subsequent decades. I think the problems with Europe and the EU are a lot deeper than that.

palata 3mo ago
A lot deeper than active wars and energy supply issues??? Europe's economy has been slowing down since 2007, which is the peak of conventional oil. The problem of Europe is that is doesn't have access to abundant energy like the US does. The US likes to think that they have a better economy because they are smarter/work harder, but the reality is simple: abundant energy makes the economy.
- WarmWash 3mo ago
  The problem Europe has is an allergy to people making money. Oil prices aren't what drove every Euro tech worker to San Francisco for 25 years.
  - palata 3mo ago
    Since 2007, the European economy is in contraction if you look at physical indicators like "how much stuff do trucks move" or "what area is being built". That correlates directly with the peak of conventional oil and the fact that oil has been harder to get in Europe since 2007.
- pjerem 3mo ago
  If you measure economical performance with PIB per capita, yeah, for sure, US has a better economy. If you measure with anything else useful like (healthy) life expectancy or happiness level, state of the democracy, etc... like if you think the the economy must serve the people and not the other way, I'd say Europe is way more successful despite the real issues. Actually, I'm baffled at how US performs poorly for their people given they have abundant energy. Norway and Iceland also have abundant energy and their people are seeing the benefits.

dataflow 3mo ago

> Europe's problems: [...] Would it be silly to add "general lack of air conditioning" to that list? I imagine at some point it inevitably stops being a joke and starts being a real problem. Have we reached that point yet? [1] [2] [1] https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-frances-june-heatwave-caused-more-than-2700-heat-related-deaths/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-frances-june-heatwave... [2] https://www.dw.com/en/heat-wave-european-countries-report-3700-excess-deaths/a-77823303 https://www.dw.com/en/heat-wave-european-countries-report-37...

pjerem 3mo ago
Europe is lacking AC because we never had to deal with 30°C at night before the last 5-10 years. And for the regions where we needed to (like, around the Mediterranean), guess what, AC is everywhere there. You know what, me, an European, just received this morning ? The AC unit I ordered. It's not hard to install AC in Europe, it's just that until a few years ago, we never needed it. The only real blocker today is when you are living in an apartment and the condominium council refuses AC installation for esthetical reasons, but it's something that can change (either by the vote of co-owners, or by law if needed). And if you are renting, you are stuck until the legislation changes and forces owners to provide summer comfort the same way they must provide heating in winter.
- weberer 3mo ago
  >It's not hard to install AC in Europe Its orders of magnitude harder. When I lived in the USA, I could just pick up a $200 window unit and have it installed within minutes. Every single person had air conditioning. Now I live in Finland where the windows are the worst designed windows I've ever seen. They are thin, tall windows that open vertically on hinges like doors. So rain gets in, and its impossible to install a window AC or even a box fan. You're forced to either install a mini split ($1000+) or central air. And neither options are available for renters. Really, the #1 priority should be trying to bring American style sliding windows to Europe. Then everything else can fall into place downstream of that.
  - 3mo ago

sajithdilshan 3mo ago

Europe is not immigration friendly as well if you don't speak the native language, of course one could live in an English speaking bubble, but I'm not sure how feasible it would be in Academia.

lukeinator42 3mo ago
It's extremely feasible. English is the defacto language of most research in the EU. I spent some time in Italy during my masters degree and know lots of people who have gone on to research or university instructor jobs in various countries in the EU. You definitely have to learn at least some of the local language for day-to-day life though.
neonstatic 3mo ago
Likely not a problem, especially in Academia. A family member is doing a Phd in Poland, everyone is English speaking and they have lots of students from all over the world. Could be worse in places like France, where English proficiency is historically lower, but I doubt it would be a factor in higher education.
0xDEAFBEAD 3mo ago
Politically speaking, the top polling party in Germany refuses to have a discussion about neo-nazis in its ranks, and boasts that "we are growing stronger and larger all the time": https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rwflha_NkVE https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rwflha_NkVE Similar things are going on in the UK (Reform/Restore) and France, where most projections have the National Rally candidate winning the next presidential election: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2027_French_presidential_election#Second_round https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2027_F... Anti-immigrant sentiments are surging all around the world: Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. Switzerland nearly passed an immigration freeze far more draconian than anything Trump ever proposed.
- indiangenz 3mo ago
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drnick1 3mo ago

You forgot, amomg others, increasingly non-white popation due to laughable immigration policies; absurd environmental policies that result in high energy prices; red tape and high taxes in every aspect of life.