7 ms·

The US is accidentally conducting Operation Paperclip but in reverse. Who will benefit the most from it, China or Europe ?

amarant 3mo ago
Probably Europe. Seems more attractive for researchers. China is probably too different to be attractive for most Americans.
- namenotrequired 3mo ago
  Even if not a single researcher goes from the US to China, it may still benefit them
- em500 3mo ago
  It's not too different for ethnic Chinese researchers, of which there are a lot in American STEM departments.
  - skeledrew 3mo ago
    Chinese are far more open to working in foreign environments/contexts that Americans are, IMO. Just look at the foreign language learning statistics: most Americans tend to only know English, unless their family was fairly recently from a non-English speaking country. Meanwhile the Chinese landing in the US tend to already have decent English education, and dive right into doing what they're there to do.
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 3mo ago
      Given that English is a global lingua franca this hardly seems like a useful comparison.
  - Cthulhu_ 3mo ago
    For a lot of people it's easier to learn English than Chinese - you wouldn't get far if you don't speak the language in China. English gets you very far in Europe though, most research institutions, universities, high end professions, etc already have English as the going language because of the international character of these places.
    - em500 3mo ago
      I think you're missing my point. China does not need to or aim to attract any researcher from anywhere. Just attracting top tier ethnic Chinese researchers and technical talent from the US is already a big unequivocal win for them. That talent pool is big: any US Math/Physics Olympiad team of the past 10-20 years is >2/3rds ethnically Chinese. And for them, Europe is not necessarily a more attractive destination than China.
est31 3mo ago
China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks, but I guess chinese researchers won't make it to the US and this already will have a great effect on the chinese economy. Europe is in its own set of problems and it is not in the same situation that US used to be after WW2 (only major economy not affected by bombing). Europe's problems: * active major war in Ukraine (lasting longer than Axis/Soviet war in WW2) * energy supply issues (unlike US it's not energy sufficient and the places that supply it with energy are involved with wars) * a wall of people aging away from employment and into doctor's and hospital waiting rooms (forcing less investment into research and roads/bridges/railway, more towards stabilizing pensions, healthcare) * major pieces of the european export economy are being replaced by China (eg chinese car brands eating the lunch of european car brands).
- tasuki 3mo ago
  > China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks What do you mean? I've never been to China, but know quite a few non-han white Europeans who lived there for both shorter and longer periods of time. Some studied, others worked there.
  - John23832 3mo ago
    In total, China has roughly the same amount of immigrants as Ireland. China is also objectively becoming more closed, not more open.
    - coldtea 3mo ago
      The amount of skilled immigrants, researchers and engineers, matters for this comparison. Not just the total amount including random people arriving at the coast.
      - John23832 3mo ago
        No, total immigration matters. Human progress is always subject to the law large numbers. Skilled polish engineers don't want to be the only polish person in the entire country. They want food, culture, community that reminds them of home. Even as they assimilate. That's why the American melting pot works well. It encourages enclaves that touch one another. China is the opposite of that. You are hard hammered into the Han-ness, immediately. The language, the writing (which is a HUGE hurdle), the food, the way of life.
bergen 3mo ago
Is it an accident though? This seems very deliberate
- goldenarm 3mo ago
  Maybe the current administration underestimates the impact of public research, and thinks Silicon Valley appeared out of nowhere.
  - Dumblydorr 3mo ago
    Either they underestimate, which is ignorance, or they estimate properly and are anti-truth. What use do propagandists and fascists have for research? It only stands to continually disprove their lies. They obviously hate science and truth and want it gone, to be replaced with cult of personality and Christian nationalism.
usrusr 3mo ago
Not sure if accidentally is the correct term, given the anti-intellectual platform
fhe 3mo ago
There are any number of smaller region/states that are already benefiting. Singapore comes to mind. Leading labs are all setting up in Singapore and both 1) internally-transferring their previously US-based talents on work visa to Singapore, and 2) using Singapore as a base for Asia hires, mostly notably from China.

amarant 3mo ago

Probably Europe. Seems more attractive for researchers. China is probably too different to be attractive for most Americans.

namenotrequired 3mo ago
Even if not a single researcher goes from the US to China, it may still benefit them
em500 3mo ago
It's not too different for ethnic Chinese researchers, of which there are a lot in American STEM departments.
- skeledrew 3mo ago
  Chinese are far more open to working in foreign environments/contexts that Americans are, IMO. Just look at the foreign language learning statistics: most Americans tend to only know English, unless their family was fairly recently from a non-English speaking country. Meanwhile the Chinese landing in the US tend to already have decent English education, and dive right into doing what they're there to do.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 3mo ago
    Given that English is a global lingua franca this hardly seems like a useful comparison.
- Cthulhu_ 3mo ago
  For a lot of people it's easier to learn English than Chinese - you wouldn't get far if you don't speak the language in China. English gets you very far in Europe though, most research institutions, universities, high end professions, etc already have English as the going language because of the international character of these places.
  - em500 3mo ago
    I think you're missing my point. China does not need to or aim to attract any researcher from anywhere. Just attracting top tier ethnic Chinese researchers and technical talent from the US is already a big unequivocal win for them. That talent pool is big: any US Math/Physics Olympiad team of the past 10-20 years is >2/3rds ethnically Chinese. And for them, Europe is not necessarily a more attractive destination than China.

est31 3mo ago

China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks, but I guess chinese researchers won't make it to the US and this already will have a great effect on the chinese economy. Europe is in its own set of problems and it is not in the same situation that US used to be after WW2 (only major economy not affected by bombing). Europe's problems: * active major war in Ukraine (lasting longer than Axis/Soviet war in WW2) * energy supply issues (unlike US it's not energy sufficient and the places that supply it with energy are involved with wars) * a wall of people aging away from employment and into doctor's and hospital waiting rooms (forcing less investment into research and roads/bridges/railway, more towards stabilizing pensions, healthcare) * major pieces of the european export economy are being replaced by China (eg chinese car brands eating the lunch of european car brands).

tasuki 3mo ago
> China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks What do you mean? I've never been to China, but know quite a few non-han white Europeans who lived there for both shorter and longer periods of time. Some studied, others worked there.
- John23832 3mo ago
  In total, China has roughly the same amount of immigrants as Ireland. China is also objectively becoming more closed, not more open.
  - coldtea 3mo ago
    The amount of skilled immigrants, researchers and engineers, matters for this comparison. Not just the total amount including random people arriving at the coast.
    - John23832 3mo ago
      No, total immigration matters. Human progress is always subject to the law large numbers. Skilled polish engineers don't want to be the only polish person in the entire country. They want food, culture, community that reminds them of home. Even as they assimilate. That's why the American melting pot works well. It encourages enclaves that touch one another. China is the opposite of that. You are hard hammered into the Han-ness, immediately. The language, the writing (which is a HUGE hurdle), the food, the way of life.

bergen 3mo ago

Is it an accident though? This seems very deliberate

goldenarm 3mo ago
Maybe the current administration underestimates the impact of public research, and thinks Silicon Valley appeared out of nowhere.
- Dumblydorr 3mo ago
  Either they underestimate, which is ignorance, or they estimate properly and are anti-truth. What use do propagandists and fascists have for research? It only stands to continually disprove their lies. They obviously hate science and truth and want it gone, to be replaced with cult of personality and Christian nationalism.

usrusr 3mo ago

Not sure if accidentally is the correct term, given the anti-intellectual platform

fhe 3mo ago

There are any number of smaller region/states that are already benefiting. Singapore comes to mind. Leading labs are all setting up in Singapore and both 1) internally-transferring their previously US-based talents on work visa to Singapore, and 2) using Singapore as a base for Asia hires, mostly notably from China.