6 ms·

It's not that they didn't care, it's that they did care in the wrong way. A non-replacable battery means people will be more likely to buy a whole new device if

by Zambyte 3mo ago

It's not that they didn't care, it's that they did care in the wrong way. A non-replacable battery means people will be more likely to buy a whole new device if (when) the battery fails.

endemic 3mo ago
My take is they didn't optimize for something that a small percentage of users would have problems with.
- square_usual 3mo ago
  It's not really a small percentage of users. All users will have trouble with the battery - eventually. My DS4s ran out of battery life in about three years of usage; I still have one of them that I use wired with my PC, but I absolutely cannot use it wireless. Likewise with my DS5s - one of them barely held a charge 2-3 years in. I'm sure with good battery management you can extend the lifespan to be closer to 5-6 years, like my M1 MBP from 2021 that still has a 9+h battery life (though down from 12 as I remember), but that only keeps them going for a little longer. It's just a fact of how Li-ion batteries work that they will lose their capacity eventually. E: DS4 = DualShock 4, DS5 = DualSense; these are the standard PlayStation controllers for the PS4 and the PS5 respectively.
  - munk-a 3mo ago
    I think it's fair to object to the point above on the basis that users have very little knowledge of how quickly batteries will fail and thus the cost of that failure is hidden from the market. It takes years or decades for consumer usage of devices to give new purchasers a fair picture of the hardware difficulties surrounding the battery - and, by then, there's a newer model with different qualities on the market. A good number of users will never hit troubles with their battery since electronic devices are treated rather cavalierly and replaced before those defects will surface, so I object to the wording that all users will hit that - but I still think it's clearly in the best interests of the majority of consumers to bargain for better lifetime extension support.
- jamesnorden 3mo ago
  Props for using the Apple wording, I guess.
SpicyLemonZest 3mo ago
I don't understand why battery failure is a "when". The only batteries I've ever had fail in rechargeable electronic devices were replaceable packs where water got into the compartment. Perhaps I've just gotten lucky?
- sigmar 3mo ago
  How many years do you use them?
  - SpicyLemonZest 3mo ago
    I'd guesstimate 5 or so on average. I have noise-cancelling headphones that are coming up on 13 years soon.
    - Waterluvian 3mo ago
      I finally fixed my PS3 and came to discover that the controller batteries are just fine. Good batteries with proper BMS seem to be fine to live a very long life.
- jamesnorden 3mo ago
  All li-ion batteries degrade over time, they may not fail completely, but the capacity will be diminished for sure.
- zootboy 3mo ago
  Battery failure is a "when" because batteries have a limited number of charge-discharge cycles. Modern lithium-ion batteries have a life expectancy in the range of 300-600 cycles. So if you've never had such a failure, it probably just means you're not a heavy user of your devices. I try to keep my cell phones as long as I feasibly can. Every single one I've used for more than 3 years has had its battery fail (as expected for a device that sees such heavy cycling). My current phone is on its 3rd replacement battery.
- garciansmith 3mo ago
  My PSP, maybe five years ago, had a swollen battery. A friend a couple days ago was complaining that his PS4 controller's battery held no charge at all.
Waterluvian 3mo ago
I think the more likely explanation is that there was not sufficient market motiviation to include the additional requirement of a user-swappable battery. ie. people care, but they don't care enough or in enough volume for Nintendo to decide it's required. I celebrate user-swappable batteries and I think I like the battery regulations. I just don't think the Ghost of Iwata is under your bed twirling a Wario moustache while thinking about how to screw you over. The current Switch battery situation is simply a result of user-swappable not being a requirement, among the countless other requirements already in contention.
- nolok 3mo ago
  Disagree. The market will not decide on that, at least for the nintendo product. Your or your kid want the switch and the pokemon and mario and others game, you're buying the switch, you don't switch to something else because the something else allows battery switch. That's Nintendo's entire business model and the reason why they've been thriving since for ever in gaming and even the bad times where actually positive cash flow wise. They're not losing a single sale because the battery cannot be replaced, unless that sale was far from guaranteed to begin win.
  - Waterluvian 3mo ago
    I don't think customers need to be protected from themselves. If they don't like the hardware but buy it anyways because they really like the game, that's a choice. And I feel that when we're dealing with luxury goods, we should give consumers very broad discretion to vote with their money.
    - Zambyte 3mo ago
      This is victim blaming. The customer is not the one deciding make the batteries non-removable. This is protection from Nintendo.
      - Waterluvian 3mo ago
        I just don't need a government to declare that I'm a victim by treating me like I'm not capable of saying, "no, the Switch 2 isn't cutting it for the pricetag. I'll skip this gen's Pokemon." This isn't bread. It's a luxury good.
schmorptron 3mo ago
I don't think that's it for console manufacturers. They make the majority of their money on game sales, so they want the console itself to be used for as long as possible.
- dchftcs 3mo ago
  That's true for Sony, but Nintendo doesn't sell the Switch at a loss.
  - AussieWog93 3mo ago
    It's true for Nintendo too. They don't sell the hardware at a loss but also they make very little from the consoles (at least when they're new). Most of the money comes from software accessories.
- grumbel 3mo ago
  It's not about the console itself, but the accessories, anything that makes you buy more controllers means more money for them. And batteries aren't even the worst offender here. Controllers have been using USB and an almost identical layout since the Xbox1 days 25 years ago, yet most game controller remain incompatible with each other, even within the same company. PS3 won't work on PS4 and PS4 won't work on PS5. Ironically, PS4 and PS5 controller will work on PS3, since that was the first and last console that supported plain old USB HID. Meanwhile Xbox360 had a lock-out chip to prevent third party controller and the Xbox360 controller don't work on XboxOne/Series either. XboxOne and XboxSeries at least are compatible. Meanwhile on PC pretty much everything works. And then you have the whole stick drift problem, that has been solved since Dreamcast and PS3 SIXAXIS with Hall effect joysticks, but even decades later we still have controllers going in the bin due for easily avoidable reasons. Rubber coating is another very common way to add an expiry date to devices that wouldn't have one otherwise. If we wanted to get serious with the whole "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle", there are a lot more low hanging fruit than just the batteries.
arghwhat 3mo ago
To be clear, all the mentioned Nintendo products are already designed for battery replacement, with well-contained battery units and easy connectors, and the batteries are available and problem-free to replace unlike for a certain fruit company. The redesign is because the ease of accessing the batteries did not comply with the new rules. The pro controller in particular requires almost complete disassembly to get to the module, and the Switch 2's battery uses double-sided adhesive which is finicky. Joycons can also be a bit finicky to navigate for the uninitiated. Also, as the device is Japanese, it uses JIS screws rather than Philips (in addition to triwing), which could surprise some. These are superior for service - Philips screws are specifically designed to strip during assembly to prevent over-torquing - but they do require you to have the right, "exotic" screwdriver. As JIS screwdrivers are compatible with and superior in bite even for Philips screws, it's a good habit to just always use those instead for electronics. iFixit kits and such include them.
- deaton 3mo ago
  Torx is also common and also way way better than philips. Really we as a society need to phase out philips screws yesterday.
  - junga 3mo ago
    > Really we as a society need to phase out philips screws yesterday. Pozidriv to the rescue! (just kidding)
  - whycome 3mo ago
    The prevalence of Robertson in Canada is amazing.
    - soperj 3mo ago
      I keep the Robertson head in my drill because it's pretty much the only one I ever use.
    - sandworm101 3mo ago
      Because Robertsons are the best. There is no equal for wood screws.
resonious 3mo ago
This is an old rumor but I thought Nintendo made a loss on the devices. If that's true, why would they want to sell more?

by Zambyte 3mo ago

It's not that they didn't care, it's that they did care in the wrong way. A non-replacable battery means people will be more likely to buy a whole new device if (when) the battery fails.

endemic 3mo ago

My take is they didn't optimize for something that a small percentage of users would have problems with.

square_usual 3mo ago
It's not really a small percentage of users. All users will have trouble with the battery - eventually. My DS4s ran out of battery life in about three years of usage; I still have one of them that I use wired with my PC, but I absolutely cannot use it wireless. Likewise with my DS5s - one of them barely held a charge 2-3 years in. I'm sure with good battery management you can extend the lifespan to be closer to 5-6 years, like my M1 MBP from 2021 that still has a 9+h battery life (though down from 12 as I remember), but that only keeps them going for a little longer. It's just a fact of how Li-ion batteries work that they will lose their capacity eventually. E: DS4 = DualShock 4, DS5 = DualSense; these are the standard PlayStation controllers for the PS4 and the PS5 respectively.
- munk-a 3mo ago
  I think it's fair to object to the point above on the basis that users have very little knowledge of how quickly batteries will fail and thus the cost of that failure is hidden from the market. It takes years or decades for consumer usage of devices to give new purchasers a fair picture of the hardware difficulties surrounding the battery - and, by then, there's a newer model with different qualities on the market. A good number of users will never hit troubles with their battery since electronic devices are treated rather cavalierly and replaced before those defects will surface, so I object to the wording that all users will hit that - but I still think it's clearly in the best interests of the majority of consumers to bargain for better lifetime extension support.
jamesnorden 3mo ago
Props for using the Apple wording, I guess.

SpicyLemonZest 3mo ago

I don't understand why battery failure is a "when". The only batteries I've ever had fail in rechargeable electronic devices were replaceable packs where water got into the compartment. Perhaps I've just gotten lucky?

sigmar 3mo ago
How many years do you use them?
- SpicyLemonZest 3mo ago
  I'd guesstimate 5 or so on average. I have noise-cancelling headphones that are coming up on 13 years soon.
  - Waterluvian 3mo ago
    I finally fixed my PS3 and came to discover that the controller batteries are just fine. Good batteries with proper BMS seem to be fine to live a very long life.
jamesnorden 3mo ago
All li-ion batteries degrade over time, they may not fail completely, but the capacity will be diminished for sure.
zootboy 3mo ago
Battery failure is a "when" because batteries have a limited number of charge-discharge cycles. Modern lithium-ion batteries have a life expectancy in the range of 300-600 cycles. So if you've never had such a failure, it probably just means you're not a heavy user of your devices. I try to keep my cell phones as long as I feasibly can. Every single one I've used for more than 3 years has had its battery fail (as expected for a device that sees such heavy cycling). My current phone is on its 3rd replacement battery.
garciansmith 3mo ago
My PSP, maybe five years ago, had a swollen battery. A friend a couple days ago was complaining that his PS4 controller's battery held no charge at all.

Waterluvian 3mo ago

I think the more likely explanation is that there was not sufficient market motiviation to include the additional requirement of a user-swappable battery. ie. people care, but they don't care enough or in enough volume for Nintendo to decide it's required. I celebrate user-swappable batteries and I think I like the battery regulations. I just don't think the Ghost of Iwata is under your bed twirling a Wario moustache while thinking about how to screw you over. The current Switch battery situation is simply a result of user-swappable not being a requirement, among the countless other requirements already in contention.

nolok 3mo ago
Disagree. The market will not decide on that, at least for the nintendo product. Your or your kid want the switch and the pokemon and mario and others game, you're buying the switch, you don't switch to something else because the something else allows battery switch. That's Nintendo's entire business model and the reason why they've been thriving since for ever in gaming and even the bad times where actually positive cash flow wise. They're not losing a single sale because the battery cannot be replaced, unless that sale was far from guaranteed to begin win.
- Waterluvian 3mo ago
  I don't think customers need to be protected from themselves. If they don't like the hardware but buy it anyways because they really like the game, that's a choice. And I feel that when we're dealing with luxury goods, we should give consumers very broad discretion to vote with their money.
  - Zambyte 3mo ago
    This is victim blaming. The customer is not the one deciding make the batteries non-removable. This is protection from Nintendo.
    - Waterluvian 3mo ago
      I just don't need a government to declare that I'm a victim by treating me like I'm not capable of saying, "no, the Switch 2 isn't cutting it for the pricetag. I'll skip this gen's Pokemon." This isn't bread. It's a luxury good.

schmorptron 3mo ago

I don't think that's it for console manufacturers. They make the majority of their money on game sales, so they want the console itself to be used for as long as possible.

dchftcs 3mo ago
That's true for Sony, but Nintendo doesn't sell the Switch at a loss.
- AussieWog93 3mo ago
  It's true for Nintendo too. They don't sell the hardware at a loss but also they make very little from the consoles (at least when they're new). Most of the money comes from software accessories.
grumbel 3mo ago
It's not about the console itself, but the accessories, anything that makes you buy more controllers means more money for them. And batteries aren't even the worst offender here. Controllers have been using USB and an almost identical layout since the Xbox1 days 25 years ago, yet most game controller remain incompatible with each other, even within the same company. PS3 won't work on PS4 and PS4 won't work on PS5. Ironically, PS4 and PS5 controller will work on PS3, since that was the first and last console that supported plain old USB HID. Meanwhile Xbox360 had a lock-out chip to prevent third party controller and the Xbox360 controller don't work on XboxOne/Series either. XboxOne and XboxSeries at least are compatible. Meanwhile on PC pretty much everything works. And then you have the whole stick drift problem, that has been solved since Dreamcast and PS3 SIXAXIS with Hall effect joysticks, but even decades later we still have controllers going in the bin due for easily avoidable reasons. Rubber coating is another very common way to add an expiry date to devices that wouldn't have one otherwise. If we wanted to get serious with the whole "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle", there are a lot more low hanging fruit than just the batteries.

arghwhat 3mo ago

To be clear, all the mentioned Nintendo products are already designed for battery replacement, with well-contained battery units and easy connectors, and the batteries are available and problem-free to replace unlike for a certain fruit company. The redesign is because the ease of accessing the batteries did not comply with the new rules. The pro controller in particular requires almost complete disassembly to get to the module, and the Switch 2's battery uses double-sided adhesive which is finicky. Joycons can also be a bit finicky to navigate for the uninitiated. Also, as the device is Japanese, it uses JIS screws rather than Philips (in addition to triwing), which could surprise some. These are superior for service - Philips screws are specifically designed to strip during assembly to prevent over-torquing - but they do require you to have the right, "exotic" screwdriver. As JIS screwdrivers are compatible with and superior in bite even for Philips screws, it's a good habit to just always use those instead for electronics. iFixit kits and such include them.

deaton 3mo ago
Torx is also common and also way way better than philips. Really we as a society need to phase out philips screws yesterday.
- junga 3mo ago
  > Really we as a society need to phase out philips screws yesterday. Pozidriv to the rescue! (just kidding)
- whycome 3mo ago
  The prevalence of Robertson in Canada is amazing.
  - soperj 3mo ago
    I keep the Robertson head in my drill because it's pretty much the only one I ever use.
  - sandworm101 3mo ago
    Because Robertsons are the best. There is no equal for wood screws.

resonious 3mo ago

This is an old rumor but I thought Nintendo made a loss on the devices. If that's true, why would they want to sell more?