5 ms·

Yes, a lot of it involves denigrating women and an entitled and very rigid attitude towards the male place in society (alphas etc). This is incredibly toxic fo

Yes, a lot of it involves denigrating women and an entitled and very rigid attitude towards the male place in society (alphas etc). This is incredibly toxic for young men growing up and the women they interact with. Some of the more prominent proponents are actual pimps (the Tate brothers).

elcritch 4mo ago
How is that different than pervasive pornography though? Many young boys now think it’s normal to ask girls for sexual acts before having ever kissed a girl.
- khalic 4mo ago
  Seems like they could use some sex ed courses
- squidbeak 4mo ago
  > Many young boys now think it’s normal to ask girls for sexual acts before having ever kissed a girl. This is a common media talking point, but are there any hard figures for this 'many'? The type you're describing existed when I was young, long before the internet. My impression of boys and young men today is that they are generally just as decent, cautious, respectful and idealistic as they ever were - but that a small crude and unpleasant minority taints the reputation of the whole generation.
  - elcritch 4mo ago
    I don't think it's a "reputation" issue, more of a what they're being exposed to and what it's normalizing. From studies I've seen it's a significant percentage (from a random Google search [1]): The review talked to young people aged 13 to 19 and surveyed 1,000 young people aged 16 to 21. Over 6 in 10 (64%) said they had seen online pornography. Of these: 1 in 10 (10%) of nine-year-olds had seen pornography 3 in 10 (27%) of children had seen pornography by age 11 Half (50%) of children had seen it by age 13 4 in 5 (79%) had seen violent pornography before the age of 18, with the report stating “young people are frequently exposed to violent pornography, depicting coercive, degrading or pain-inducing sex acts”. 1: https://www.fpa.org.uk/rshe-for-teachers/uk-online-child-sex-abuse-and-sexual-harassment-statistics/ https://www.fpa.org.uk/rshe-for-teachers/uk-online-child-sex...
    - squidbeak 4mo ago
      It definitely is a reputation issue: unless I'm misunderstanding something, you are using this data to suggest a greater incidence of violent sexual behavior among young men as a result to their exposure to ugly types of pornography. You don't seem to have any data putting your figures into any context over time: run the same study in the 80s and I would wager you'd see similar even worse results. Wank mags and grainy VHS were passed around schools from the moment they appeared, including BDSM and torture porn - often in the form of sleazy B-movies. Sure, pornography is far easier to access today. But the material is the same, and this notion that somehow, today's boys and young men are worse for this exposure than their predecessors is insidious and deeply ignorant. It is significantly more difficult to find young men today who think it's acceptable for husbands to beat their wives - or that rape is never rape in marriage. Or who think they can get a woman drunk to seduce her. Campaigners had to work damn hard to raise public consciousness out of the traditionalist inertia around these blights. Frankly, to anyone like me, old enough to compare several different eras and their male representatives, comments like yours and the inferences you'd have people draw from them, are utterly ridiculous - and yes, hugely unjust to the overwhelming majority of young men who flinch from the idea of hurting a woman in bed or out of it, regardless of what type of pornography they've been exposed to.
      - elcritch 4mo ago
        > But the material is the same, and this notion that somehow, today's boys and young men are worse for this exposure than their predecessors is insidious and deeply ignorant. No what's ignorant is ignoring the prevalence and nature of modern online pornography. Hopefully you realize that having the worst of what previous generations might've been exposed occassionally to by copying grainy VHS videos is literally a few clicks away now. Much like social media it's pushed constantly onto them (well all us men). It's a giant predatory industry with a very addictive product. It's not a reputation thing because it's about how destructive it is to society as a whole to both men and women. It's a very different sort of destructive behavior than previous generations might've had. > hugely unjust to the overwhelming majority of young men who flinch from the idea of hurting a woman in bed or out of it There's lots of great young guys out there. How about we not regress due by allowing new rampant destructive influences. That's my perspective. We're seeing huge upticks in "incels" and "red-pilled" young men now. IMHO that's largely influenced by pervasive (mysoginist) pornography. Even then, apparently young women don't agree with you as recent polls show young women don't view men favorably anymore [1]. So apparently something, or many things, are going wrong. 1: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-men-femosphere-new-statesman-poll-b2958208.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-men-fe...
- tsimionescu 4mo ago
  It is, as pornography is about sexual acts, while the manosphere is discussing the role they believe men and women should play in all aspects of life, not just sex and romance. They believe and teach that women shouldn't be managers, knowledge workers, professors, politicians, shouldn't have a right to vote (at least not differently from the man who essentially owns them) etc. Pornography may give some people some wrong ideas about sex and romantic relationships, might even instill some level of implicit misoginy in certain straight men, but I'm pretty sure you won't get the idea that women should be allowed in Parliament from watching too much porn.
- scott_w 4mo ago
  Huge gap between producing material that depicts (presumably) consensual sexual activities between adults and telling young boys to commit rape.
  - elcritch 4mo ago
    Practically speaking there's not much difference since there's a large amount of violent or extreme pornography which also teaches boys that directly or indirectly. It also teaches girls that it's "ok" cause they see it online. There's many studies and organizations who publish warnings about violent pornography and young adults: Dr Ruth Weir of City St George's, University of London, said extreme porn had been "normalised online" and was now "playing out in young people's relationships". [1] 1: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8e82pwyg33o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8e82pwyg33o
    - jplusequalt 4mo ago
      Unless I'm missing somethiny, that article has no data that backs up Dr. Ruth Weir's claim. It first posits that adult content has been normalized online, then cites unrelated statistics about abuse victims who had watched adult content. There's nothing that convincingly links that that first statement to the latter data.
      - elcritch 4mo ago
        Perhaps try reading the report linked in the third paragraph of the news article? It's at: https://www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/resource/pornography-and-harmful-sexual-behaviour/ https://www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/resource/pornograph... To quote from that report: A literature review of 19 academic papers, drawing on multiple methodologies since 2005, conducted by the Government Equalities Office (GEO) to assess the relationship between pornography exposure and negative behaviours towards women and girls found that pornography use had a statistically significant association with attitudes supporting violence against women (with violent pornography showing an even stronger association). [44] A meta-analysis of 9 studies found a significant association between pornography use among adult men and attitudes supporting violence against women, such as ‘rape myth acceptance’. [45] The association was found to be significantly stronger for violent pornography than non-violent pornography. Other studies involving young adults, including Peter and Valkenburg (2009) [46] and Hald et al. (2013), [47] have found that past pornography exposure among young males is significantly associated with less egalitarian and more aggressive attitudes towards women. This is particularly worrying when young people are being exposed to pornography.
- aussieguy1234 4mo ago
  The Manosphere is going to convince the impressionable young boys and men they are entitled to be treated in the same way as the men in the porn videos, consent be dammed. This is the main problem.
AlexandrB 4mo ago
[flagged]
- Tadpole9181 4mo ago
  I want to be excruciatingly clear: Andrew Tate is a sex trafficker that tells millions of impressionable boys they are owed sex and that women should not be permitted to vote or hold positions of influence, and that they cannot have platonic relationships with women. The word incel, on the other hand, describes men who are disgustingly behaved and as a result are unable to have romantic relationships. These are not, in any way, the same thing. This is NOT an example of horseshoe theory.
- pseudalopex 4mo ago
  Incel is a subculture.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel
  - imtringued 4mo ago
    The point is that virgin men or single men get called "Incel", because of how it stings as an insult, not because they are part of a subculture or have the mindset of that subculture. Imagine being lumped in with crystal meth addicts because your friend gave you a cigarette once.
sciencejerk 4mo ago
Is manosphere related to "red pill"?
- jplusequalt 4mo ago
  Yes

elcritch 4mo ago

How is that different than pervasive pornography though? Many young boys now think it’s normal to ask girls for sexual acts before having ever kissed a girl.

khalic 4mo ago
Seems like they could use some sex ed courses
squidbeak 4mo ago
> Many young boys now think it’s normal to ask girls for sexual acts before having ever kissed a girl. This is a common media talking point, but are there any hard figures for this 'many'? The type you're describing existed when I was young, long before the internet. My impression of boys and young men today is that they are generally just as decent, cautious, respectful and idealistic as they ever were - but that a small crude and unpleasant minority taints the reputation of the whole generation.
- elcritch 4mo ago
  I don't think it's a "reputation" issue, more of a what they're being exposed to and what it's normalizing. From studies I've seen it's a significant percentage (from a random Google search [1]): The review talked to young people aged 13 to 19 and surveyed 1,000 young people aged 16 to 21. Over 6 in 10 (64%) said they had seen online pornography. Of these: 1 in 10 (10%) of nine-year-olds had seen pornography 3 in 10 (27%) of children had seen pornography by age 11 Half (50%) of children had seen it by age 13 4 in 5 (79%) had seen violent pornography before the age of 18, with the report stating “young people are frequently exposed to violent pornography, depicting coercive, degrading or pain-inducing sex acts”. 1: https://www.fpa.org.uk/rshe-for-teachers/uk-online-child-sex-abuse-and-sexual-harassment-statistics/ https://www.fpa.org.uk/rshe-for-teachers/uk-online-child-sex...
  - squidbeak 4mo ago
    It definitely is a reputation issue: unless I'm misunderstanding something, you are using this data to suggest a greater incidence of violent sexual behavior among young men as a result to their exposure to ugly types of pornography. You don't seem to have any data putting your figures into any context over time: run the same study in the 80s and I would wager you'd see similar even worse results. Wank mags and grainy VHS were passed around schools from the moment they appeared, including BDSM and torture porn - often in the form of sleazy B-movies. Sure, pornography is far easier to access today. But the material is the same, and this notion that somehow, today's boys and young men are worse for this exposure than their predecessors is insidious and deeply ignorant. It is significantly more difficult to find young men today who think it's acceptable for husbands to beat their wives - or that rape is never rape in marriage. Or who think they can get a woman drunk to seduce her. Campaigners had to work damn hard to raise public consciousness out of the traditionalist inertia around these blights. Frankly, to anyone like me, old enough to compare several different eras and their male representatives, comments like yours and the inferences you'd have people draw from them, are utterly ridiculous - and yes, hugely unjust to the overwhelming majority of young men who flinch from the idea of hurting a woman in bed or out of it, regardless of what type of pornography they've been exposed to.
    - elcritch 4mo ago
      > But the material is the same, and this notion that somehow, today's boys and young men are worse for this exposure than their predecessors is insidious and deeply ignorant. No what's ignorant is ignoring the prevalence and nature of modern online pornography. Hopefully you realize that having the worst of what previous generations might've been exposed occassionally to by copying grainy VHS videos is literally a few clicks away now. Much like social media it's pushed constantly onto them (well all us men). It's a giant predatory industry with a very addictive product. It's not a reputation thing because it's about how destructive it is to society as a whole to both men and women. It's a very different sort of destructive behavior than previous generations might've had. > hugely unjust to the overwhelming majority of young men who flinch from the idea of hurting a woman in bed or out of it There's lots of great young guys out there. How about we not regress due by allowing new rampant destructive influences. That's my perspective. We're seeing huge upticks in "incels" and "red-pilled" young men now. IMHO that's largely influenced by pervasive (mysoginist) pornography. Even then, apparently young women don't agree with you as recent polls show young women don't view men favorably anymore [1]. So apparently something, or many things, are going wrong. 1: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-men-femosphere-new-statesman-poll-b2958208.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-men-fe...
tsimionescu 4mo ago
It is, as pornography is about sexual acts, while the manosphere is discussing the role they believe men and women should play in all aspects of life, not just sex and romance. They believe and teach that women shouldn't be managers, knowledge workers, professors, politicians, shouldn't have a right to vote (at least not differently from the man who essentially owns them) etc. Pornography may give some people some wrong ideas about sex and romantic relationships, might even instill some level of implicit misoginy in certain straight men, but I'm pretty sure you won't get the idea that women should be allowed in Parliament from watching too much porn.
scott_w 4mo ago
Huge gap between producing material that depicts (presumably) consensual sexual activities between adults and telling young boys to commit rape.
- elcritch 4mo ago
  Practically speaking there's not much difference since there's a large amount of violent or extreme pornography which also teaches boys that directly or indirectly. It also teaches girls that it's "ok" cause they see it online. There's many studies and organizations who publish warnings about violent pornography and young adults: Dr Ruth Weir of City St George's, University of London, said extreme porn had been "normalised online" and was now "playing out in young people's relationships". [1] 1: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8e82pwyg33o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8e82pwyg33o
  - jplusequalt 4mo ago
    Unless I'm missing somethiny, that article has no data that backs up Dr. Ruth Weir's claim. It first posits that adult content has been normalized online, then cites unrelated statistics about abuse victims who had watched adult content. There's nothing that convincingly links that that first statement to the latter data.
    - elcritch 4mo ago
      Perhaps try reading the report linked in the third paragraph of the news article? It's at: https://www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/resource/pornography-and-harmful-sexual-behaviour/ https://www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/resource/pornograph... To quote from that report: A literature review of 19 academic papers, drawing on multiple methodologies since 2005, conducted by the Government Equalities Office (GEO) to assess the relationship between pornography exposure and negative behaviours towards women and girls found that pornography use had a statistically significant association with attitudes supporting violence against women (with violent pornography showing an even stronger association). [44] A meta-analysis of 9 studies found a significant association between pornography use among adult men and attitudes supporting violence against women, such as ‘rape myth acceptance’. [45] The association was found to be significantly stronger for violent pornography than non-violent pornography. Other studies involving young adults, including Peter and Valkenburg (2009) [46] and Hald et al. (2013), [47] have found that past pornography exposure among young males is significantly associated with less egalitarian and more aggressive attitudes towards women. This is particularly worrying when young people are being exposed to pornography.
aussieguy1234 4mo ago
The Manosphere is going to convince the impressionable young boys and men they are entitled to be treated in the same way as the men in the porn videos, consent be dammed. This is the main problem.

AlexandrB 4mo ago

[flagged]

Tadpole9181 4mo ago
I want to be excruciatingly clear: Andrew Tate is a sex trafficker that tells millions of impressionable boys they are owed sex and that women should not be permitted to vote or hold positions of influence, and that they cannot have platonic relationships with women. The word incel, on the other hand, describes men who are disgustingly behaved and as a result are unable to have romantic relationships. These are not, in any way, the same thing. This is NOT an example of horseshoe theory.
pseudalopex 4mo ago
Incel is a subculture.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel
- imtringued 4mo ago
  The point is that virgin men or single men get called "Incel", because of how it stings as an insult, not because they are part of a subculture or have the mindset of that subculture. Imagine being lumped in with crystal meth addicts because your friend gave you a cigarette once.

sciencejerk 4mo ago

Is manosphere related to "red pill"?

jplusequalt 4mo ago
Yes