4 ms·

They're also getting banned fast. The city level should be the most accessible government for change. There's been over 70[1] documented wins. Don't feel like

They're also getting banned fast. The city level should be the most accessible government for change. There's been over 70[1] documented wins. Don't feel like this is a lost cause, it clearly isn't. If everyone who was going to comment on this thread instead or additionally got involved by going to a city council meeting and explaining the problems to friends/family, many more cities could reject them. [1] https://deflock.org/council/#wins https://deflock.org/council/#wins

15155 4mo ago
This list isn't exactly describing "bans," this is a city contract rejection list - otherwise known as a "just deploy in commercial parking lots abutting major thoroughfares" restriction.
tptacek 4mo ago
They're not getting banned fast, and regulation isn't a lost cause. Flock, in particular, is getting contracts cancelled primarily in ultra-liberal municipalities, and that's in large part because of their public relationship with the current federal administration. But ALPRs are going up everywhere; they're a commodity technology. We canceled our Flock contract (I wasn't psyched about that) and we're ringed by munis that use ALPRs from vendors that haven't made themselves political flashpoints. I'm fond of pointing out on HN that the muni I live in is likely one of the 10 most progressive-leaning in the country (it's the most progressive-leaning municipality in Chicagoland). Even here, Flock had an ardent cheering section, of normal people who think expediting the interdiction of stolen vehicles (which are vectors of violent crime) is a perfectly reasonable thing for a city to invest in.
- guelo 4mo ago
  I got caught by an ALPR 20 years ago. I've been confused about 1) what is Flock's innovation 2) why are people up in arm.
  - tptacek 4mo ago
    The thing that Flock does that's alarming is that it provides operators with a search engine for arbitrary vehicle descriptions which include but are not limited to license plates, with history stretching back; misuse scenarios are obvious, the search histories allow you to track the movements of specific people with fine granularity. The thing that Flock does that is actually immediately problematic is that it operationalizes BOLO/hotlist databases that weren't intended to be used in real-time. Our deployment of Flock curbed more innocent vehicles than actual stolen cars, because Illinois LEADS isn't reliably updated, and so pings on vehicles that were reported stolen (whether or not they actually turned out to have been stolen as opposed to borrowed by a family member or something) weeks ago and recovered.
    - MichaelZuo 4mo ago
      That sounds like a much more foundational and serious issue than any number of ALPR systems? If Illionis LEADS lacks credibility?
      - tptacek 4mo ago
        It has plenty of credibility at the task for which it was designed. It wasn't designed as a backend event system for real-time sensors.
        MichaelZuo 4mo ago
        Huh? You just said it “isn't reliably updated, and so pings on vehicles that were reported stolen…” are weeks out of date? Even if all ALPRs vanished from the Earth tomorrow, that still indicates a lack of credibility in the pings?
        BobaFloutist 4mo ago
        If I had to guess, it's like when an expensive medical test gets more accessible and they have to update their model. If the cost to get an MRI means everyone that gets one has a combination of symptoms and risk factors raising the pre-test probability, then it makes sense to treat MRI findings aggressively. If they become cheaper and start using them as screenings, they need to update their approach. Similarly, if license plates are scanned when cops are already pulling someone over for moving violations (or the car is accumulating a ton of parking tickets, having been dumped), it might be ok if their status isn't updated that frequently, and it still might make sense for cops to approach the car with the idea that it might be stolen (something a drivers license check against registration can quickly clear up, which shouldn't matter too much if they were getting pulled over anyway). If the system is being used to justify pulling people over in the first place, it needs different parameters.
- loteck 4mo ago
  I came in to the thread anticipating a highly placed tptacek comment defending Flock without grappling with any of their numerous problems, and claiming that "regular people" love Flock. Weird how predictable that's become.
- nielsbot 4mo ago
  you have no concerns about erosion of privacy or mass surveillance of innocents? i don’t get it.
- everforward 4mo ago
  > normal people who think expediting the interdiction of stolen vehicles (which are vectors of violent crime) is a perfectly reasonable thing for a city to invest in. The effectiveness is dramatically oversold. This has literally happened to me. Called 911 midway through the theft, cops pulled it up on Flock, the best they could tell me was "they went towards the highway" (no shit, Sherlock). I saw the parts on marketplace a week later (definitely mine, unique staining), 2 hours after they were listed and called it in. The PD where the parts are wouldn't do anything unless my PD called, my PD said the officer in charge was on vacation so they can't do anything until he's back. Take a wild guess who hasn't heard anything back. This should be their ideal situation; they got called mid-robbery, and someone else located the parts afterwards. If they can't solve that with Flock, lack of information is not the holdup here.
  - tptacek 4mo ago
    I completely agree with you about the effectiveness, or rather, I do if you stipulate a community that has a problem with curbing cars for innocent drivers (many communities don't recognize that as a real harm and will look only at the top line interdiction numbers).
randusername 4mo ago
We had success in our county and town canceling contracts, but that doesn't mean they are banned from private land. I'm not totally sure, but it may even be the stupidest of all possible outcomes: they still exist, the cops can't access them, and their only value is selling private information.
- infecto 4mo ago
  But the cops can access the private land cameras. I would wager most small to conglomerate level business opt-in. Last I checked the Lowes and Walmarts of the US share this data as its locks down shoplifters quicker.
  - 15155 4mo ago
    > But the cops can access the private land cameras. Not for free, they can't. Flock isn't a charity. So your local cops can't get the data, but others can.
    - infecto 4mo ago
      Hmm when I was in discussion with a couple different flock deployments that’s not how the arrangement works. The customer (not the police), the entity paying for the camera can opt in to sharing the data with local police. Under that arrangement the police did not pay for anything. Now certainly cities and police agencies may have their own deployment but the camera is the product the feature benefit is the data share. Maybe it’s change since I last was looking at it.
  - tptacek 4mo ago
    Police cannot access privately-owned Flock cameras unless the owners authorize them to do so, or a court orders it (in the same sense that a court can order access to any information on any device).
    - infecto 4mo ago
      Yes that is what I said. Most private owners opt in to this data sharing arrangement. Keep in mind some of the largest deployments are with big box stores and retail property owners.
StayHuman 4mo ago
Trying to push back on this in my local community, two things I have found, below. Hopefully helpful to others. 1) I tried posting on Craigslist's "Community" section, in a simple attempt to reach out and connect with others who may be concerned. The posts were automatically blocked before even being published on the site. I tried multiple versions of this (i.e. with links and without, with pictures and without, etc.), from multiple accounts. Same result every time; the posted did not go through. Obviously the word "Flock" would be easy to filter on, but if memory serves, even my very pared-down attempts that only used "surveillance" or "cameras" were blocked. Why would Craigslist stop Flock-related posts from going through? The only answer I can think of is something along the lines of a National Security Letter. Certainly others here are much better informed about this realm than I am. Any other possibilities or perspectives, I'd be interested in hearinng. I would also be interested in seeing what results other people get when they attempt to post on this issue to Craigslist. 2) So far my initial efforts to reach locally out via online contact channels to the City Council for more information have not been fruitful, and seem to be getting stonewalled (I'm not giving up yet though). In the meantime, I was able to do find the Flock contract, initial proposal, and other related documents using the City Council's agenda and minutes search tools. These search tools seem to vary by city, but may be worth looking into in your area.
- tptacek 4mo ago
  I don't know where you live, but if you lived in Chicagoland the advice for how to engage on this would be easy: there are 1-4 (depending on your muni) Facebook groups where all the meaningful policy discussion happens. Hold your nose and log into Facebook and look.
  - doc_ick 4mo ago
    Or you could log in here, or write newspapers about it, or make a nice Oreo pie and make sure everyone knows where every flock of materials is
- Hizonner 4mo ago
  > Why would Craigslist stop Flock-related posts from going through? The only answer I can think of is something along the lines of a National Security Letter. That's because you lack imagination. 99 percent chance they are blocking you because they don't want "divisive political rhetoric" on the platform. Allowing a surveillance state is "apolitical" as long as it doesn't involve rocking any boats or making any noise. ... and NSLs don't do that. It would really be nice if people actually understood what NSLs were before blaming everything on them. Trust me, they are bad enough without inventing stuff.
motbus3 4mo ago
Nothing is blocking them to spread their tech on other brands and vendors, making ghost data operator companies and aggregating it on complex layers that only produces information without the whole data. The law that regulates it and all the validation process is flawed and they know it.
cmxch 4mo ago
And criminals notice fast that the neighborhoods that don’t have them are easy pickings.

15155 4mo ago

This list isn't exactly describing "bans," this is a city contract rejection list - otherwise known as a "just deploy in commercial parking lots abutting major thoroughfares" restriction.

tptacek 4mo ago

They're not getting banned fast, and regulation isn't a lost cause. Flock, in particular, is getting contracts cancelled primarily in ultra-liberal municipalities, and that's in large part because of their public relationship with the current federal administration. But ALPRs are going up everywhere; they're a commodity technology. We canceled our Flock contract (I wasn't psyched about that) and we're ringed by munis that use ALPRs from vendors that haven't made themselves political flashpoints. I'm fond of pointing out on HN that the muni I live in is likely one of the 10 most progressive-leaning in the country (it's the most progressive-leaning municipality in Chicagoland). Even here, Flock had an ardent cheering section, of normal people who think expediting the interdiction of stolen vehicles (which are vectors of violent crime) is a perfectly reasonable thing for a city to invest in.

guelo 4mo ago
I got caught by an ALPR 20 years ago. I've been confused about 1) what is Flock's innovation 2) why are people up in arm.
- tptacek 4mo ago
  The thing that Flock does that's alarming is that it provides operators with a search engine for arbitrary vehicle descriptions which include but are not limited to license plates, with history stretching back; misuse scenarios are obvious, the search histories allow you to track the movements of specific people with fine granularity. The thing that Flock does that is actually immediately problematic is that it operationalizes BOLO/hotlist databases that weren't intended to be used in real-time. Our deployment of Flock curbed more innocent vehicles than actual stolen cars, because Illinois LEADS isn't reliably updated, and so pings on vehicles that were reported stolen (whether or not they actually turned out to have been stolen as opposed to borrowed by a family member or something) weeks ago and recovered.
  - MichaelZuo 4mo ago
    That sounds like a much more foundational and serious issue than any number of ALPR systems? If Illionis LEADS lacks credibility?
    - tptacek 4mo ago
      It has plenty of credibility at the task for which it was designed. It wasn't designed as a backend event system for real-time sensors.
      - MichaelZuo 4mo ago
        Huh? You just said it “isn't reliably updated, and so pings on vehicles that were reported stolen…” are weeks out of date? Even if all ALPRs vanished from the Earth tomorrow, that still indicates a lack of credibility in the pings?
        BobaFloutist 4mo ago
        If I had to guess, it's like when an expensive medical test gets more accessible and they have to update their model. If the cost to get an MRI means everyone that gets one has a combination of symptoms and risk factors raising the pre-test probability, then it makes sense to treat MRI findings aggressively. If they become cheaper and start using them as screenings, they need to update their approach. Similarly, if license plates are scanned when cops are already pulling someone over for moving violations (or the car is accumulating a ton of parking tickets, having been dumped), it might be ok if their status isn't updated that frequently, and it still might make sense for cops to approach the car with the idea that it might be stolen (something a drivers license check against registration can quickly clear up, which shouldn't matter too much if they were getting pulled over anyway). If the system is being used to justify pulling people over in the first place, it needs different parameters.
loteck 4mo ago
I came in to the thread anticipating a highly placed tptacek comment defending Flock without grappling with any of their numerous problems, and claiming that "regular people" love Flock. Weird how predictable that's become.
nielsbot 4mo ago
you have no concerns about erosion of privacy or mass surveillance of innocents? i don’t get it.
everforward 4mo ago
> normal people who think expediting the interdiction of stolen vehicles (which are vectors of violent crime) is a perfectly reasonable thing for a city to invest in. The effectiveness is dramatically oversold. This has literally happened to me. Called 911 midway through the theft, cops pulled it up on Flock, the best they could tell me was "they went towards the highway" (no shit, Sherlock). I saw the parts on marketplace a week later (definitely mine, unique staining), 2 hours after they were listed and called it in. The PD where the parts are wouldn't do anything unless my PD called, my PD said the officer in charge was on vacation so they can't do anything until he's back. Take a wild guess who hasn't heard anything back. This should be their ideal situation; they got called mid-robbery, and someone else located the parts afterwards. If they can't solve that with Flock, lack of information is not the holdup here.
- tptacek 4mo ago
  I completely agree with you about the effectiveness, or rather, I do if you stipulate a community that has a problem with curbing cars for innocent drivers (many communities don't recognize that as a real harm and will look only at the top line interdiction numbers).

randusername 4mo ago

We had success in our county and town canceling contracts, but that doesn't mean they are banned from private land. I'm not totally sure, but it may even be the stupidest of all possible outcomes: they still exist, the cops can't access them, and their only value is selling private information.

infecto 4mo ago
But the cops can access the private land cameras. I would wager most small to conglomerate level business opt-in. Last I checked the Lowes and Walmarts of the US share this data as its locks down shoplifters quicker.
- 15155 4mo ago
  > But the cops can access the private land cameras. Not for free, they can't. Flock isn't a charity. So your local cops can't get the data, but others can.
  - infecto 4mo ago
    Hmm when I was in discussion with a couple different flock deployments that’s not how the arrangement works. The customer (not the police), the entity paying for the camera can opt in to sharing the data with local police. Under that arrangement the police did not pay for anything. Now certainly cities and police agencies may have their own deployment but the camera is the product the feature benefit is the data share. Maybe it’s change since I last was looking at it.
- tptacek 4mo ago
  Police cannot access privately-owned Flock cameras unless the owners authorize them to do so, or a court orders it (in the same sense that a court can order access to any information on any device).
  - infecto 4mo ago
    Yes that is what I said. Most private owners opt in to this data sharing arrangement. Keep in mind some of the largest deployments are with big box stores and retail property owners.

StayHuman 4mo ago

Trying to push back on this in my local community, two things I have found, below. Hopefully helpful to others. 1) I tried posting on Craigslist's "Community" section, in a simple attempt to reach out and connect with others who may be concerned. The posts were automatically blocked before even being published on the site. I tried multiple versions of this (i.e. with links and without, with pictures and without, etc.), from multiple accounts. Same result every time; the posted did not go through. Obviously the word "Flock" would be easy to filter on, but if memory serves, even my very pared-down attempts that only used "surveillance" or "cameras" were blocked. Why would Craigslist stop Flock-related posts from going through? The only answer I can think of is something along the lines of a National Security Letter. Certainly others here are much better informed about this realm than I am. Any other possibilities or perspectives, I'd be interested in hearinng. I would also be interested in seeing what results other people get when they attempt to post on this issue to Craigslist. 2) So far my initial efforts to reach locally out via online contact channels to the City Council for more information have not been fruitful, and seem to be getting stonewalled (I'm not giving up yet though). In the meantime, I was able to do find the Flock contract, initial proposal, and other related documents using the City Council's agenda and minutes search tools. These search tools seem to vary by city, but may be worth looking into in your area.

tptacek 4mo ago
I don't know where you live, but if you lived in Chicagoland the advice for how to engage on this would be easy: there are 1-4 (depending on your muni) Facebook groups where all the meaningful policy discussion happens. Hold your nose and log into Facebook and look.
- doc_ick 4mo ago
  Or you could log in here, or write newspapers about it, or make a nice Oreo pie and make sure everyone knows where every flock of materials is
Hizonner 4mo ago
> Why would Craigslist stop Flock-related posts from going through? The only answer I can think of is something along the lines of a National Security Letter. That's because you lack imagination. 99 percent chance they are blocking you because they don't want "divisive political rhetoric" on the platform. Allowing a surveillance state is "apolitical" as long as it doesn't involve rocking any boats or making any noise. ... and NSLs don't do that. It would really be nice if people actually understood what NSLs were before blaming everything on them. Trust me, they are bad enough without inventing stuff.

motbus3 4mo ago

Nothing is blocking them to spread their tech on other brands and vendors, making ghost data operator companies and aggregating it on complex layers that only produces information without the whole data. The law that regulates it and all the validation process is flawed and they know it.

cmxch 4mo ago

And criminals notice fast that the neighborhoods that don’t have them are easy pickings.