4 ms·

The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)

111 points by pseudolus 4mo ago

synecdoche 4mo ago
I've heard the opposite. That is was designed and based on military organisation and for individuals to conform to the contemporary world view.
- mdp2021 4mo ago
  Well, where. Of course the Philosopher and the Dictator will have different positions on the matter. The thing is that (1) there is a dialectic between the two perspectives and that (2) in actual historical instances different parties will have had more space for action.
- steephax 4mo ago
  Yes, there's a nice explanation of its origins in Moonwalking with Einstein.
- logicchains 4mo ago
  The article addresses this: "Yet over the years, as Humboldt's public education system was adopted, modified and spread around the world, Bildung — the cultivation of our human potential — may well have been the critical piece left out. Soon, the state's influence on education took hold, with its own agenda. This is explored in part two of the documentary, Humboldt's Ghost."
- speak_plainly 4mo ago
  This is true. While Humboldt designed the overarching structure of the school, Johann Gottlieb Fichte argued that Prussia lost to Napoleon because they were too individualistic and was able to influence ideas of early education in those schools. The aim, through Fichte, became a system designed to break parental bonds, who he believed filled kids heads with selfish, private interests, and in turn, the goal of education was to develop children into workers and soldiers. Fichte famously suggested that a proper education should destroy a student's free will so thoroughly that they could never choose to do anything other than what the state required.
  - TimByte 4mo ago
    Maybe the real lesson is that public education has always had both impulses: emancipation and formation on one hand, conformity and state needs on the other
  - loloquwowndueo 4mo ago
    Got any references for this? It’s pretty interesting, would like to know more.
  - EffectFeisty627 4mo ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto Gatto asserts the following regarding what school does to children in Dumbing Us Down: It confuses the students. It presents an incoherent ensemble of information that the child needs to memorize to stay in school. Apart from the tests and trials, this programming is similar to the television; it fills almost all the "free" time of children. One sees and hears something, only to forget it again. It teaches them to accept their class affiliation. It makes them indifferent. It makes them emotionally dependent. It makes them intellectually dependent. It teaches them a kind of self-confidence that requires constant confirmation by experts (provisional self-esteem). It makes it clear to them that they cannot hide, because they are always supervised.[
- steve1977 4mo ago
  Part of the problem might be that the terms are not used in the same way in the Anglosphere and in Germany. In Germany, the Prussian Reforms refer to what is described in the article and attributed to Wilhelm von Humboldt, this was in the late 18th century. What you are probably referring to is the Generallandschulreglement by Johan Johann Julius Hecker under Frederick the Great. This was published in 1763, around 40 years before von Humboldt.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- TimByte 4mo ago
  I think both can be true, depending on which layer of the system you're looking at
- breezybottom 4mo ago
  Oh, well if you've heard it, then it must be true. Especially if ChatGPT said it.
crypttales 4mo ago
[dead]
lmf4lol 4mo ago
I was just reading Schillers letters on the Aesthetic Education of Man. It made me sad that we have such profound insight available on beauty and a fulfilling life, and still produce a school system that is completely contrary to a proper human existence. I also vividly recall pg’s reflections on the school system in Hackers and Founders. He was spot on with his observations and still is. My own experience made so much more sense. He wrote that a decade ago it hink. Still, Nothing changed! I have two daughters. One just finished primary school and the second is halfway through primary. Its a disaster. They dont learn proper reading and math, they dony learn creativity. Its just a big waste of time sending them there to be honest. Heck, they watch 1 hour of stupid TV shows there everyday.. why??? My wife home schools them additionally, so that they learn proper reading, math, history & art. Its sad that this is necessary. My daughters excel now all tests obviously but its frightening to see how low the average skill level of their peers is. there are 12 year olds who cant read a paragraph or do simple maths in their head. They dont know anything about the history of the country.. Its terrifying that this is the future generation. They need to carry the torch after all. And its not the kids fault. WE as a society failed them!!!! ps i am from Amsterdam, NL btw
- s5300 4mo ago
  [dead]
- Aurornis 4mo ago
  > They dont learn proper reading and math, they dony learn creativity. Its just a big waste of time sending them there to be honest. Heck, they watch 1 hour of stupid TV shows there everyday.. why??? I am not in Amsterdam, but this seems very unexpectedly wrong. For as much as people complain about the US education system, I’ve been amazed watching how early my kids and friends’ kids at various schools around here have picked up reading and math. They’re learning these things earlier than I did as a child and earlier than I thought they would in the school system. That’s not to say that every school is perfect, but it’s all been so much better than I would have expected from the extreme negative sentiment that I read online. The only explanation I can come up with is that school quality varies by a wide range from school to school or region to region, maybe more than the tests and statistics can show.
pacbard 4mo ago
My first reaction is that it depends on who you read. The linked article talks about Wilhelm von Humboldt's philosophy of education. While I haven't read much into 19th-century German literature, the article seems to suggest that a national education system is foundational in nation building and, possibly on-brand romanticism, that the final goal of education is to produce "independent, critical thinkers". The same ideals have driven the initial push for public schooling in the United States (which happened at the same time at least in the big East Coast cities). However, with the expansion west, schooling became more of an assimilation instrument, where the preparation of "informed citizens" became more of the goal. This led to public school clashes with established religious schools (mostly Catholic in Chicago and in California), which then resulted in a full separation between public and religious school funding. The goal of education seemed to have changed with the beginning of the 20th century and the push for universal high school. Powell, Farrar, & Cohen argue in "Shopping Mall High School"[^1] that universal secondary education forced schools to become more “consumer-oriented" by offering classes and activities (i.e., sports) that would keep students in school until 18, while compromising with their original ideals to prepare citizens or critical thinkers. [^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopping_mall_high_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopping_mall_high_school
- TimByte 4mo ago
  That may be why the rhetoric of education stays lofty while the day-to-day machinery often feels much more pragmatic
netcan 4mo ago
There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are. IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization: (a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great teacher is the ultimate lever. But great teachers in every class, with enough time and energy to invest in every student... very hard to achieve at national scale. (b) Voluntary, self-motivated students who want to learn vs checked-out teenagers that just want to pass the exam with minimum effort... it's a massive difference. It's the difference between a world class gymnastics club and the PE class from an 80s teen movie. Even if half the class is highly motivated, it can't be like the gymnastics club when half the class is there involuntarily. The visionary, optimistic concepts are usually focused on what students can achieve when motivated and willing. Universal, mandatory education rarely achieves this attitude. (c) The bureaucracy required for scale. Decisions about teaching methods, standardized testing and whatnot... these can be performing terribly for years and decades before getting dropped. A department starts judging schools or teachers by standardized tests... and then a whole generation falls into a stale "teaching to the test" paradigm that disillusions both teacher and student. "Why are we doing this" - because we have to.
- TimByte 4mo ago
  Mandatory education is still probably better than the alternative but it does seem to create a constant tension: the system has to serve students who want very different things from it
  - WillAdams 4mo ago
    The solution would seem to be a flexible system which identifies and works with the needs of each student. A school system I attended when I was young divided classes between academic and social --- social classes were attended at one's age level, academic classes were attended at a student's ability levels, I believe that there were also trade school tracks, prompted by students taking Sloyd Woodworking claseses: https://rainfordrestorations.com/tag/sloyd/ https://rainfordrestorations.com/tag/sloyd/
khurs 4mo ago
"Soon, the state's influence on education took hold, with its own agenda. This is explored in part two of the documentary, Humboldt's Ghost." Part two link is not working... https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/1.7175393 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/1.7175393
- brnaftr361 4mo ago
  The title of pt. 2 is How our education system is far from its original ideals. It's available on apple and audible.
  - timbit42 4mo ago
    https://www.audible.ca/podcast/How-our-education-system-is-far-from-its-original-ideals/B0FQWB54MK https://www.audible.ca/podcast/How-our-education-system-is-f...
TimByte 4mo ago
[dead]
hackermailman 4mo ago
The origins of mandatory education was Athens citizens being bamboozled by rhetoric all detailed here in this lecture https://youtu.be/H0z9sJyTv2w https://youtu.be/H0z9sJyTv2w Neitzsche had an interesting set of lectures he gave about the future of schools if you can get through the annoying style of a fictitious argument between philosopher and student. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/28146/28146-h/28146-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/28146/28146-h/28146-h.htm
rramadass 4mo ago
Also relevant: Talks to Teachers on Psychology: And to Students on some of Life's Ideals by William James - https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16287/16287-h/16287-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16287/16287-h/16287-h.htm What William James Still Teaches Us About Teaching: A Reflective Look at "Talks to Teachers" in Ed Psych Today - https://www.nzlamb.org/blog/what-william-james-still-teaches-us-about-teaching-a-reflective-look-at-talks-to-teachers-in-ed-psych-today https://www.nzlamb.org/blog/what-william-james-still-teaches... This 19th-Century Book Is Still Timely for Teachers - https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-this-19th-century-book-is-still-timely-for-teachers/2013/01 https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-this-19th-c... William James’s pragmatism in education, from experiential learning to global application - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2331186X.2026.2658224 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2331186X.2026.2...
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
elcritch 4mo ago
It’s sad to me after reading stories like this how much Western societies have generally lost the pursuit of Bildung (wisdom, virtue) that shaped men like Wilhelm von Humboldt's. I’ve come to firmly believe that a society which looses the pursuit of the noble in the individual in exchange for mere technological excellence will in the long run loose technical ability as well. It’s not even about a religious ideals, but secular ones as well. Really any belief system that puts the onus on individuals to pursue nobleness, as opposed to the more empty “reforming society” or “fixing society” that universities in particular appear fixated on currently. Reminds me of CS Lewis’ critiques our modern age in “Abolition of Man” who critiqued it very well. Of course we see this tension of education of the individual vs mass indoctrination in most western public school systems. TFA was a good read, as I’d always assumed and read that universal education was created as just a tool for mass indoctrination for obedient workers.
- itsamario 4mo ago
  Voting rights was a superficial act of righteousness. Allowing anyone to vote that can color in lines was when the patients started running the place. When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom.
  - supertroop 4mo ago
    We went from critical thinking to only some people can participate in society in the blink of an eye. What if you’re one of the people deemed too dumb? Did that ever occur to you?
    - deleted 4mo ago
      [deleted]
    - SteveGerencser 4mo ago
      I'm fine with a simple, basic test to be able to vote. 5 T/F questions, you only need to get 3 right to vote. Basics. Is the earth flat? Did humans land on the moon? Do brown cows produce chocolate milk? You know, the basics. If I couldn't pass such a test, I should not be allowed to vote.
zkmon 4mo ago
I have a different view from a developing country. Those were great ideals and pristine origins of schooling. But somewhere post-industrialization, schooling turned into training camps that would suck away the youth from their families, villages and rural professions, into work that would power the clerical and factory jobs. It was called nation building, economy work, office work, machine work, transport work etc. But the effect was, villages and families were broken. The nation building happened at the cost of family separation, uprooting of people and families from their native locations, suffering hectic work schedules in alien lands. That's the gift of schooling and higher education. I have a cousin who escaped schooling when he was 8. He ran away from the town where he was put into school, walked 25 kilometers in the night to reach our village. He never went back to school. Looking back, I would rate his life quality and achievements far better that those of us who went through all the tough exams, roamed around the globe, worked too hard to be in the job etc. he doesn't know about internet, but his health and happiness are far superior due to sticking to his home and farm.
- robocat 4mo ago
  In my experience, highly motivated independent people do well in their lives. > 8. He ran away > I would rate his life quality and achievements far better Selection bias : always a poor starter for cause and effect arguments. All my smartest friends left school at 15 or earlier. Also selection bias since I haven't made friends with any dummies that left school early. I wish I had been that driven - I was a slow-learner to understand the value of non-academic skills.
timbit42 4mo ago
This is Part 1 and only 6 minutes long. The links to Part 2 are broken.
- timbit42 4mo ago
  It's on Apple and Audible (56 minutes): https://www.audible.ca/podcast/How-our-education-system-is-far-from-its-original-ideals/B0FQWB54MK https://www.audible.ca/podcast/How-our-education-system-is-f...
Havoc 4mo ago
> wanted students to learn how to reach their full inner potential, their 'Bildung.' Whoever wrote this clearly didn’t know that Bildung is just German for education
deterministic 4mo ago
The public school system in most countries has been spectacularly successful. In fact, much of the West's success is built on it. Having said that, people are different. They have different IQs, interests, abilities, motivation, and levels of family support. No education system will work equally well for everyone. That isn't a problem with today's public school system. It's a problem that any education system would face. Someone with an IQ of 70 will never understand concepts like compound interest, no matter how much time, money, or tutoring is provided. While a smart and motivated person will usually learn despite a mediocre school system. This is why every attempt to "fix" the public school system has failed spectacularly.
whatever1 4mo ago
We don’t want too many independent critical thinkers. This is how corruption gets born. People being too smart to follow the rules. See Latin America, south Europe. Inconceivable wealth and natural resources. Full of independent thinkers cannot even do basic things without bribes.
- IAmBroom 4mo ago
  That... is quite the long and tenuous thread you've drawn.

111 points by pseudolus 4mo ago

I've heard the opposite. That is was designed and based on military organisation and for individuals to conform to the contemporary world view.

mdp2021 4mo ago
Well, where. Of course the Philosopher and the Dictator will have different positions on the matter. The thing is that (1) there is a dialectic between the two perspectives and that (2) in actual historical instances different parties will have had more space for action.
steephax 4mo ago
Yes, there's a nice explanation of its origins in Moonwalking with Einstein.
logicchains 4mo ago
The article addresses this: "Yet over the years, as Humboldt's public education system was adopted, modified and spread around the world, Bildung — the cultivation of our human potential — may well have been the critical piece left out. Soon, the state's influence on education took hold, with its own agenda. This is explored in part two of the documentary, Humboldt's Ghost."
speak_plainly 4mo ago
This is true. While Humboldt designed the overarching structure of the school, Johann Gottlieb Fichte argued that Prussia lost to Napoleon because they were too individualistic and was able to influence ideas of early education in those schools. The aim, through Fichte, became a system designed to break parental bonds, who he believed filled kids heads with selfish, private interests, and in turn, the goal of education was to develop children into workers and soldiers. Fichte famously suggested that a proper education should destroy a student's free will so thoroughly that they could never choose to do anything other than what the state required.
- TimByte 4mo ago
  Maybe the real lesson is that public education has always had both impulses: emancipation and formation on one hand, conformity and state needs on the other
- loloquwowndueo 4mo ago
  Got any references for this? It’s pretty interesting, would like to know more.
- EffectFeisty627 4mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto Gatto asserts the following regarding what school does to children in Dumbing Us Down: It confuses the students. It presents an incoherent ensemble of information that the child needs to memorize to stay in school. Apart from the tests and trials, this programming is similar to the television; it fills almost all the "free" time of children. One sees and hears something, only to forget it again. It teaches them to accept their class affiliation. It makes them indifferent. It makes them emotionally dependent. It makes them intellectually dependent. It teaches them a kind of self-confidence that requires constant confirmation by experts (provisional self-esteem). It makes it clear to them that they cannot hide, because they are always supervised.[
steve1977 4mo ago
Part of the problem might be that the terms are not used in the same way in the Anglosphere and in Germany. In Germany, the Prussian Reforms refer to what is described in the article and attributed to Wilhelm von Humboldt, this was in the late 18th century. What you are probably referring to is the Generallandschulreglement by Johan Johann Julius Hecker under Frederick the Great. This was published in 1763, around 40 years before von Humboldt.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
TimByte 4mo ago
I think both can be true, depending on which layer of the system you're looking at
breezybottom 4mo ago
Oh, well if you've heard it, then it must be true. Especially if ChatGPT said it.

crypttales 4mo ago

[dead]

lmf4lol 4mo ago

I was just reading Schillers letters on the Aesthetic Education of Man. It made me sad that we have such profound insight available on beauty and a fulfilling life, and still produce a school system that is completely contrary to a proper human existence. I also vividly recall pg’s reflections on the school system in Hackers and Founders. He was spot on with his observations and still is. My own experience made so much more sense. He wrote that a decade ago it hink. Still, Nothing changed! I have two daughters. One just finished primary school and the second is halfway through primary. Its a disaster. They dont learn proper reading and math, they dony learn creativity. Its just a big waste of time sending them there to be honest. Heck, they watch 1 hour of stupid TV shows there everyday.. why??? My wife home schools them additionally, so that they learn proper reading, math, history & art. Its sad that this is necessary. My daughters excel now all tests obviously but its frightening to see how low the average skill level of their peers is. there are 12 year olds who cant read a paragraph or do simple maths in their head. They dont know anything about the history of the country.. Its terrifying that this is the future generation. They need to carry the torch after all. And its not the kids fault. WE as a society failed them!!!! ps i am from Amsterdam, NL btw

s5300 4mo ago
[dead]
Aurornis 4mo ago
> They dont learn proper reading and math, they dony learn creativity. Its just a big waste of time sending them there to be honest. Heck, they watch 1 hour of stupid TV shows there everyday.. why??? I am not in Amsterdam, but this seems very unexpectedly wrong. For as much as people complain about the US education system, I’ve been amazed watching how early my kids and friends’ kids at various schools around here have picked up reading and math. They’re learning these things earlier than I did as a child and earlier than I thought they would in the school system. That’s not to say that every school is perfect, but it’s all been so much better than I would have expected from the extreme negative sentiment that I read online. The only explanation I can come up with is that school quality varies by a wide range from school to school or region to region, maybe more than the tests and statistics can show.

pacbard 4mo ago

My first reaction is that it depends on who you read. The linked article talks about Wilhelm von Humboldt's philosophy of education. While I haven't read much into 19th-century German literature, the article seems to suggest that a national education system is foundational in nation building and, possibly on-brand romanticism, that the final goal of education is to produce "independent, critical thinkers". The same ideals have driven the initial push for public schooling in the United States (which happened at the same time at least in the big East Coast cities). However, with the expansion west, schooling became more of an assimilation instrument, where the preparation of "informed citizens" became more of the goal. This led to public school clashes with established religious schools (mostly Catholic in Chicago and in California), which then resulted in a full separation between public and religious school funding. The goal of education seemed to have changed with the beginning of the 20th century and the push for universal high school. Powell, Farrar, & Cohen argue in "Shopping Mall High School"[^1] that universal secondary education forced schools to become more “consumer-oriented" by offering classes and activities (i.e., sports) that would keep students in school until 18, while compromising with their original ideals to prepare citizens or critical thinkers. [^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopping_mall_high_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopping_mall_high_school

TimByte 4mo ago
That may be why the rhetoric of education stays lofty while the day-to-day machinery often feels much more pragmatic

netcan 4mo ago

There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are. IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization: (a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great teacher is the ultimate lever. But great teachers in every class, with enough time and energy to invest in every student... very hard to achieve at national scale. (b) Voluntary, self-motivated students who want to learn vs checked-out teenagers that just want to pass the exam with minimum effort... it's a massive difference. It's the difference between a world class gymnastics club and the PE class from an 80s teen movie. Even if half the class is highly motivated, it can't be like the gymnastics club when half the class is there involuntarily. The visionary, optimistic concepts are usually focused on what students can achieve when motivated and willing. Universal, mandatory education rarely achieves this attitude. (c) The bureaucracy required for scale. Decisions about teaching methods, standardized testing and whatnot... these can be performing terribly for years and decades before getting dropped. A department starts judging schools or teachers by standardized tests... and then a whole generation falls into a stale "teaching to the test" paradigm that disillusions both teacher and student. "Why are we doing this" - because we have to.

TimByte 4mo ago
Mandatory education is still probably better than the alternative but it does seem to create a constant tension: the system has to serve students who want very different things from it
- WillAdams 4mo ago
  The solution would seem to be a flexible system which identifies and works with the needs of each student. A school system I attended when I was young divided classes between academic and social --- social classes were attended at one's age level, academic classes were attended at a student's ability levels, I believe that there were also trade school tracks, prompted by students taking Sloyd Woodworking claseses: https://rainfordrestorations.com/tag/sloyd/ https://rainfordrestorations.com/tag/sloyd/

khurs 4mo ago

"Soon, the state's influence on education took hold, with its own agenda. This is explored in part two of the documentary, Humboldt's Ghost." Part two link is not working... https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/1.7175393 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/1.7175393

brnaftr361 4mo ago
The title of pt. 2 is How our education system is far from its original ideals. It's available on apple and audible.
- timbit42 4mo ago
  https://www.audible.ca/podcast/How-our-education-system-is-far-from-its-original-ideals/B0FQWB54MK https://www.audible.ca/podcast/How-our-education-system-is-f...

TimByte 4mo ago

[dead]

hackermailman 4mo ago

The origins of mandatory education was Athens citizens being bamboozled by rhetoric all detailed here in this lecture https://youtu.be/H0z9sJyTv2w https://youtu.be/H0z9sJyTv2w Neitzsche had an interesting set of lectures he gave about the future of schools if you can get through the annoying style of a fictitious argument between philosopher and student. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/28146/28146-h/28146-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/28146/28146-h/28146-h.htm

rramadass 4mo ago

Also relevant: Talks to Teachers on Psychology: And to Students on some of Life's Ideals by William James - https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16287/16287-h/16287-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16287/16287-h/16287-h.htm What William James Still Teaches Us About Teaching: A Reflective Look at "Talks to Teachers" in Ed Psych Today - https://www.nzlamb.org/blog/what-william-james-still-teaches-us-about-teaching-a-reflective-look-at-talks-to-teachers-in-ed-psych-today https://www.nzlamb.org/blog/what-william-james-still-teaches... This 19th-Century Book Is Still Timely for Teachers - https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-this-19th-century-book-is-still-timely-for-teachers/2013/01 https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-this-19th-c... William James’s pragmatism in education, from experiential learning to global application - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2331186X.2026.2658224 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2331186X.2026.2...

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

elcritch 4mo ago

It’s sad to me after reading stories like this how much Western societies have generally lost the pursuit of Bildung (wisdom, virtue) that shaped men like Wilhelm von Humboldt's. I’ve come to firmly believe that a society which looses the pursuit of the noble in the individual in exchange for mere technological excellence will in the long run loose technical ability as well. It’s not even about a religious ideals, but secular ones as well. Really any belief system that puts the onus on individuals to pursue nobleness, as opposed to the more empty “reforming society” or “fixing society” that universities in particular appear fixated on currently. Reminds me of CS Lewis’ critiques our modern age in “Abolition of Man” who critiqued it very well. Of course we see this tension of education of the individual vs mass indoctrination in most western public school systems. TFA was a good read, as I’d always assumed and read that universal education was created as just a tool for mass indoctrination for obedient workers.

itsamario 4mo ago
Voting rights was a superficial act of righteousness. Allowing anyone to vote that can color in lines was when the patients started running the place. When words lose their meaning, people lose their freedom.
- supertroop 4mo ago
  We went from critical thinking to only some people can participate in society in the blink of an eye. What if you’re one of the people deemed too dumb? Did that ever occur to you?
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
  - SteveGerencser 4mo ago
    I'm fine with a simple, basic test to be able to vote. 5 T/F questions, you only need to get 3 right to vote. Basics. Is the earth flat? Did humans land on the moon? Do brown cows produce chocolate milk? You know, the basics. If I couldn't pass such a test, I should not be allowed to vote.

zkmon 4mo ago

I have a different view from a developing country. Those were great ideals and pristine origins of schooling. But somewhere post-industrialization, schooling turned into training camps that would suck away the youth from their families, villages and rural professions, into work that would power the clerical and factory jobs. It was called nation building, economy work, office work, machine work, transport work etc. But the effect was, villages and families were broken. The nation building happened at the cost of family separation, uprooting of people and families from their native locations, suffering hectic work schedules in alien lands. That's the gift of schooling and higher education. I have a cousin who escaped schooling when he was 8. He ran away from the town where he was put into school, walked 25 kilometers in the night to reach our village. He never went back to school. Looking back, I would rate his life quality and achievements far better that those of us who went through all the tough exams, roamed around the globe, worked too hard to be in the job etc. he doesn't know about internet, but his health and happiness are far superior due to sticking to his home and farm.

robocat 4mo ago
In my experience, highly motivated independent people do well in their lives. > 8. He ran away > I would rate his life quality and achievements far better Selection bias : always a poor starter for cause and effect arguments. All my smartest friends left school at 15 or earlier. Also selection bias since I haven't made friends with any dummies that left school early. I wish I had been that driven - I was a slow-learner to understand the value of non-academic skills.

timbit42 4mo ago

This is Part 1 and only 6 minutes long. The links to Part 2 are broken.

timbit42 4mo ago
It's on Apple and Audible (56 minutes): https://www.audible.ca/podcast/How-our-education-system-is-far-from-its-original-ideals/B0FQWB54MK https://www.audible.ca/podcast/How-our-education-system-is-f...

Havoc 4mo ago

> wanted students to learn how to reach their full inner potential, their 'Bildung.' Whoever wrote this clearly didn’t know that Bildung is just German for education

deterministic 4mo ago

The public school system in most countries has been spectacularly successful. In fact, much of the West's success is built on it. Having said that, people are different. They have different IQs, interests, abilities, motivation, and levels of family support. No education system will work equally well for everyone. That isn't a problem with today's public school system. It's a problem that any education system would face. Someone with an IQ of 70 will never understand concepts like compound interest, no matter how much time, money, or tutoring is provided. While a smart and motivated person will usually learn despite a mediocre school system. This is why every attempt to "fix" the public school system has failed spectacularly.

whatever1 4mo ago

We don’t want too many independent critical thinkers. This is how corruption gets born. People being too smart to follow the rules. See Latin America, south Europe. Inconceivable wealth and natural resources. Full of independent thinkers cannot even do basic things without bribes.

IAmBroom 4mo ago
That... is quite the long and tenuous thread you've drawn.