6 ms·

Wanted to mention that Sailfish has a lot of closed-source components, especially UI-related, despite the overall marketing/"vibe" making it look very open. If

Wanted to mention that Sailfish has a lot of closed-source components, especially UI-related, despite the overall marketing/"vibe" making it look very open. If anything, AOSP (Android) is more open than Sailfish. I don't think this has changed with Sailfish 5, see e.g.: - https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-os-clarifying-claims-about-open-closed-source-security-and-privacy/25933 https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-os-clarifying-claims... - https://docs.sailfishos.org/Develop/Open_Source/ https://docs.sailfishos.org/Develop/Open_Source/

Retr0id 4mo ago
Huh. I really don't see the point of this, vs something like GrapheneOS. Edit: I'm well aware of the differences between typical Linux and Android (especially the security architecture!), and I'm willing to make some sacrifices in the name of FOSS... but only if it's actually FOSS.
- ttkari 4mo ago
  If what you want is android and you have privacy concerns, GrapheneOS is probably the best you can get. Then again, SailfishOS is a linux with much of the usual linux stuff like userland with bash, coreutils, glibc, systemd, wayland, pulseaudio etc.
  - microtonal 4mo ago
    And way less security, sandboxing is far more limited and the default profile looks pretty much YOLO: https://github.com/sailfishos/sailjail-permissions/blob/master/config/50-default-profile.conf https://github.com/sailfishos/sailjail-permissions/blob/mast... Given how sensitive information most people have on their phones (banking, chats, and whatnot), it's a disaster in the making. The typical answer is "but I'll only use open source apps that I trust". Sandboxing doesn't only protect you against rogue apps, it primarily protects you against 0-days in apps that you do trust.
    - uniqueuid 4mo ago
      It's very simple, this is about the threat model. If you are worried about big players profiling you (hard to avoid, high likelihood of happening, low likelihood of damage), then you want Sailfish. If you are worried about apps profiling you (easy to avoid, high likelihood of happening, moderate likelihood of damage), you want Android or iOS. Graphene and Sailfish sit on different points on that spectrum, just like OpenBSD and Linux do.
      - microtonal 4mo ago
        Sorry, this does not make any sense. E.g. vanilla GrapheneOS does not have Google Play services and no analytics from big players at all. Even if you choose not to install Play Services/Play Store, you will still have access to many more apps than on SailfishOS - from many open source Android apps to proprietary apps that you can download without the Play Store. Plus, with the Linux terminal support in Pixels (note: not all Android phones support this, e.g. Snapdragons don't support privileged virtualization), you can also run Linux desktop apps.
- dengolius 4mo ago
  I read somewhere that the owners have ties to russia, but the most important thing is that they’re marketing very aggressively through posts that slander GraphenOS.
  - dijit 4mo ago
    Jesus christ, what is this FUD? I know the people behind SailfishOS, they’re not like, friends or anything: just ex-Nokia developers who got fucked by Microsoft (like I did, btw, which is how I know of them). I feel like the big tech smartphone duopoly would have a reason to spread such rubbish, but its so patently obvious that I doubt they are so stupid.
    - etdznots 4mo ago
      It’s a sensitive topic for the US because it is an an EU-backed and funded project to move away from US tech, which undermines US interests globally. which is why you might see some unusually intense anger/vitriol hurled their way and Goebbels-level fabrications
    - TiredOfLife 4mo ago
      From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolla "It acquired new investors in 2016, among them the Russian company Votron. In March 2018 they were joined by Rostelecom (which is state owned) as investor, which took over Votron and OMP." Note that was after 2014 russian invasion into Ukraine.
      - dijit 4mo ago
        After the 2022 invasion of Ukraine, Jolla moved to cut ties. It sought to disengage from any Russian ownership from early 2022, entered corporate restructuring at the Pirkanmaa District Court, and on 24 November 2023 the court approved a programme obligating a complete sale of the business. In May 2024 the original Jolla company filed for bankruptcy, its activities having been taken over in 2023 by the Jollyboys company established by Jolla’s former management. The current entity is owned by the management team, with no Russian stake. So as of now, the “Russian-owned” framing is substantially outdated.
- ux266478 4mo ago
  /etc configuration instead of the insanely bad system properties crap, glibc instead of bionic (which has even worse POSIX compliance than Windows), ld instead of linker, FHS, not having a batshit insane No-Sockets rule, not needing to port software that already compiles and runs on GNU/Linux, X11/Wayland/Arcan, system services aren't entangled with Java, normal IPC mechanisms instead whatever the fuck binder is. The list goes on. Android (and by extension GrapheneOS) uses Linux as a kernel, but it lives in its own world and is completely unrecognizable. I'd say it's even more alien than macOS. For most users, the differences don't matter. If you're a programmer or a sysadmin with reasonable expectations, you feel like a fish out of water very fast. And I cannot honestly the changes are for the better.
  - IshKebab 4mo ago
    I think he was asking about advantages, not "how is it similar to a Unix system from the 80s?"
    - ux266478 4mo ago
      The irony you fail to realize, the differences listed in fact would be typical of a random Unix system in the 80s, where it's just a mountain of bad and random opinions stapled on top of a Unix system. Some random and half-baked libc? You got it! Some bizarre and overly convoluted greenfield filesystem structure? It's right there! Completely different and frustrating custom linker behavior? Yep! Everything I listed was an advantage. Now see, I don't think Unix is the be-all end-all of operating systems design. I don't particularly care for Linux, the BSDs, macOS, etc. But Android is a definite regression in the strongest terms. Give me a PIMOS or Genera or Squeak phone that works well. I'll be happier than I would with a Linux phone.
      - gf000 4mo ago
        Which system has better security from an end-user perspective? Only iOS comes anywhere close.
        4mo ago
- ThatMedicIsASpy 4mo ago
  My xperia 10 iii was 280€(+50€ OS) vs 500€++ for a pixel. But I hate phones. All I want is navigation, sms/call, signal, steam and firefox.
  - fsfasfd 4mo ago
    You might be interested in the callback: https://commodore.net/callback/ https://commodore.net/callback/ It's pretty cool looking! Very optimistic about it.
    - DanOpcode 4mo ago
      It doesn't have any web browsers. Who you are replying to wants Firefox.
  - microtonal 4mo ago
    Ehm, a Pixel 9a is currently 349 Euro here (10a 399 Euro). Given that the OS is free, that's only a 19 Euro difference. For a much better camera, much better SoC, much better pretty much everything. Of course, if your goal is to run SailfishOS, there is currently not much of another option.
    - ThatMedicIsASpy 4mo ago
      My phone is a couple of years old at this point. A Pixel 7 was the newest i think. I don't care about cameras, I don't care about specs. All I need is listed. My phone would have a screen time of a few mins per day. I can't stand doing anything on these tiny touch screens or browsing the web on a phone screen.
      - microtonal 4mo ago
        The Pixel A lineup has always been affordable. Heck, the 4a was even $349 at introduction. The currently start a little higher, but are often around 350 Euro halfway the cycle.
- tormeh 4mo ago
  If it has the "security" architecture of Linux (it's really more of a multi-tenant architecture) then that's a complete deal breaker. Wouldn't want it if it was 1000x faster/betterer than Android. Our desktop OSes are just incompatible with running untrusted software, and you're gonna want to do that.
  - ginko 4mo ago
    >Our desktop OSes are just incompatible with running untrusted software, and you're gonna want to do that. So you're saying people should only use walled garden closed source OSes? Sounds like tyranny to me.
    - Retr0id 4mo ago
      No? AOSP is open source.
      - fsflover 4mo ago
        AOSP doesn't run on any phone without a ton of proprietary blobs.
    - Andromxda 4mo ago
      1) No one is saying that. As another commenter mentioned, Android is open source. 2) The point still stands, desktop operating systems like Windows and desktop Linux distributions are much less secure than Android or iOS. Read https://privsec.dev/posts/linux/linux-insecurities/ https://privsec.dev/posts/linux/linux-insecurities/
  - fsflover 4mo ago
    > Our desktop OSes are just incompatible with running untrusted software You should have a look at https://qubes-os.org https://qubes-os.org
- port11 4mo ago
  Maybe the point is to have more than 2 players in the mobile OS arena, especially if the American duopoly continues to force everyone’s hand.
- 1718627440 3mo ago
  > differences between typical Linux and Android I know how this looks like, but I really wish a more precise term, like e.g. GNU/Linux would have catched on... The kernel is necessary for the OS, but for the user freedom kind of not that important, as can be seen by Google/Linux aka. Android.
- bossyTeacher 3mo ago
  Jolla depends on the AOSP. Graphene depends on the AOSP and Google Pixel phones. If Google Pixel phones ever got their bootloader locked, Graphene would die immediately. If AOSP ever went private, both would die. The risk space is bigger for Graphene.
mrbn100ful 4mo ago
They are (slowly) releasing more and more components https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/open-sourcing-proceeding/24689 https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/open-sourcing-proceeding/2468... https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-weather/ https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-weather/ https://github.com/sailfishos/jolla-camera https://github.com/sailfishos/jolla-camera It's still more open than AOSP
- singpolyma3 4mo ago
  I think you mean less. Since AOSP is fully open?
- bri3d 4mo ago
  > It's still more open than AOSP I don't think this is true at all? AOSP is completely open source modulo driver blobs (which Sailfish has too) and Google services. One can make a fully functional system, modulo drivers, out of only open-source components using AOSP. It's not possible to do this using Sailfish; the compositor, UI libraries (Silica), and most of the "core" apps are still closed source.
  - dadoum 4mo ago
    If I remember correctly a lot of AOSP core apps have been discontinued though.
    - mrbn100ful 4mo ago
      Yes and most people don't realize that the current "AOSP" apps are the LineageOS apps. A true AOPS image is missing most core Apps.
    - microtonal 4mo ago
      I think people got too used to bundling by Apple and Google. For most of the core apps there are good and open source alternatives available. The main point is that AOSP as a system (modulo firmware) is open source and SailfishOS is not. Also, even though Sailfish has an Android compatibility layer (though only for official devices), compatibility is most likely always going to be worse than 'real' Android. That said, I hope that Jolla Phone becomes a success, more competition is good. Hopefully being funded better will move them to fully open source the base system.
fsflover 4mo ago
If the openness is important to you, you may want to have a look at other GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinephone. The former runs an FSF-endorsed Debian derivative.

Retr0id 4mo ago

Huh. I really don't see the point of this, vs something like GrapheneOS. Edit: I'm well aware of the differences between typical Linux and Android (especially the security architecture!), and I'm willing to make some sacrifices in the name of FOSS... but only if it's actually FOSS.

ttkari 4mo ago
If what you want is android and you have privacy concerns, GrapheneOS is probably the best you can get. Then again, SailfishOS is a linux with much of the usual linux stuff like userland with bash, coreutils, glibc, systemd, wayland, pulseaudio etc.
- microtonal 4mo ago
  And way less security, sandboxing is far more limited and the default profile looks pretty much YOLO: https://github.com/sailfishos/sailjail-permissions/blob/master/config/50-default-profile.conf https://github.com/sailfishos/sailjail-permissions/blob/mast... Given how sensitive information most people have on their phones (banking, chats, and whatnot), it's a disaster in the making. The typical answer is "but I'll only use open source apps that I trust". Sandboxing doesn't only protect you against rogue apps, it primarily protects you against 0-days in apps that you do trust.
  - uniqueuid 4mo ago
    It's very simple, this is about the threat model. If you are worried about big players profiling you (hard to avoid, high likelihood of happening, low likelihood of damage), then you want Sailfish. If you are worried about apps profiling you (easy to avoid, high likelihood of happening, moderate likelihood of damage), you want Android or iOS. Graphene and Sailfish sit on different points on that spectrum, just like OpenBSD and Linux do.
    - microtonal 4mo ago
      Sorry, this does not make any sense. E.g. vanilla GrapheneOS does not have Google Play services and no analytics from big players at all. Even if you choose not to install Play Services/Play Store, you will still have access to many more apps than on SailfishOS - from many open source Android apps to proprietary apps that you can download without the Play Store. Plus, with the Linux terminal support in Pixels (note: not all Android phones support this, e.g. Snapdragons don't support privileged virtualization), you can also run Linux desktop apps.
dengolius 4mo ago
I read somewhere that the owners have ties to russia, but the most important thing is that they’re marketing very aggressively through posts that slander GraphenOS.
- dijit 4mo ago
  Jesus christ, what is this FUD? I know the people behind SailfishOS, they’re not like, friends or anything: just ex-Nokia developers who got fucked by Microsoft (like I did, btw, which is how I know of them). I feel like the big tech smartphone duopoly would have a reason to spread such rubbish, but its so patently obvious that I doubt they are so stupid.
  - etdznots 4mo ago
    It’s a sensitive topic for the US because it is an an EU-backed and funded project to move away from US tech, which undermines US interests globally. which is why you might see some unusually intense anger/vitriol hurled their way and Goebbels-level fabrications
  - TiredOfLife 4mo ago
    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolla "It acquired new investors in 2016, among them the Russian company Votron. In March 2018 they were joined by Rostelecom (which is state owned) as investor, which took over Votron and OMP." Note that was after 2014 russian invasion into Ukraine.
    - dijit 4mo ago
      After the 2022 invasion of Ukraine, Jolla moved to cut ties. It sought to disengage from any Russian ownership from early 2022, entered corporate restructuring at the Pirkanmaa District Court, and on 24 November 2023 the court approved a programme obligating a complete sale of the business. In May 2024 the original Jolla company filed for bankruptcy, its activities having been taken over in 2023 by the Jollyboys company established by Jolla’s former management. The current entity is owned by the management team, with no Russian stake. So as of now, the “Russian-owned” framing is substantially outdated.
ux266478 4mo ago
/etc configuration instead of the insanely bad system properties crap, glibc instead of bionic (which has even worse POSIX compliance than Windows), ld instead of linker, FHS, not having a batshit insane No-Sockets rule, not needing to port software that already compiles and runs on GNU/Linux, X11/Wayland/Arcan, system services aren't entangled with Java, normal IPC mechanisms instead whatever the fuck binder is. The list goes on. Android (and by extension GrapheneOS) uses Linux as a kernel, but it lives in its own world and is completely unrecognizable. I'd say it's even more alien than macOS. For most users, the differences don't matter. If you're a programmer or a sysadmin with reasonable expectations, you feel like a fish out of water very fast. And I cannot honestly the changes are for the better.
- IshKebab 4mo ago
  I think he was asking about advantages, not "how is it similar to a Unix system from the 80s?"
  - ux266478 4mo ago
    The irony you fail to realize, the differences listed in fact would be typical of a random Unix system in the 80s, where it's just a mountain of bad and random opinions stapled on top of a Unix system. Some random and half-baked libc? You got it! Some bizarre and overly convoluted greenfield filesystem structure? It's right there! Completely different and frustrating custom linker behavior? Yep! Everything I listed was an advantage. Now see, I don't think Unix is the be-all end-all of operating systems design. I don't particularly care for Linux, the BSDs, macOS, etc. But Android is a definite regression in the strongest terms. Give me a PIMOS or Genera or Squeak phone that works well. I'll be happier than I would with a Linux phone.
    - gf000 4mo ago
      Which system has better security from an end-user perspective? Only iOS comes anywhere close.
      - 4mo ago
ThatMedicIsASpy 4mo ago
My xperia 10 iii was 280€(+50€ OS) vs 500€++ for a pixel. But I hate phones. All I want is navigation, sms/call, signal, steam and firefox.
- fsfasfd 4mo ago
  You might be interested in the callback: https://commodore.net/callback/ https://commodore.net/callback/ It's pretty cool looking! Very optimistic about it.
  - DanOpcode 4mo ago
    It doesn't have any web browsers. Who you are replying to wants Firefox.
- microtonal 4mo ago
  Ehm, a Pixel 9a is currently 349 Euro here (10a 399 Euro). Given that the OS is free, that's only a 19 Euro difference. For a much better camera, much better SoC, much better pretty much everything. Of course, if your goal is to run SailfishOS, there is currently not much of another option.
  - ThatMedicIsASpy 4mo ago
    My phone is a couple of years old at this point. A Pixel 7 was the newest i think. I don't care about cameras, I don't care about specs. All I need is listed. My phone would have a screen time of a few mins per day. I can't stand doing anything on these tiny touch screens or browsing the web on a phone screen.
    - microtonal 4mo ago
      The Pixel A lineup has always been affordable. Heck, the 4a was even $349 at introduction. The currently start a little higher, but are often around 350 Euro halfway the cycle.
tormeh 4mo ago
If it has the "security" architecture of Linux (it's really more of a multi-tenant architecture) then that's a complete deal breaker. Wouldn't want it if it was 1000x faster/betterer than Android. Our desktop OSes are just incompatible with running untrusted software, and you're gonna want to do that.
- ginko 4mo ago
  >Our desktop OSes are just incompatible with running untrusted software, and you're gonna want to do that. So you're saying people should only use walled garden closed source OSes? Sounds like tyranny to me.
  - Retr0id 4mo ago
    No? AOSP is open source.
    - fsflover 4mo ago
      AOSP doesn't run on any phone without a ton of proprietary blobs.
  - Andromxda 4mo ago
    1) No one is saying that. As another commenter mentioned, Android is open source. 2) The point still stands, desktop operating systems like Windows and desktop Linux distributions are much less secure than Android or iOS. Read https://privsec.dev/posts/linux/linux-insecurities/ https://privsec.dev/posts/linux/linux-insecurities/
- fsflover 4mo ago
  > Our desktop OSes are just incompatible with running untrusted software You should have a look at https://qubes-os.org https://qubes-os.org
port11 4mo ago
Maybe the point is to have more than 2 players in the mobile OS arena, especially if the American duopoly continues to force everyone’s hand.
1718627440 3mo ago
> differences between typical Linux and Android I know how this looks like, but I really wish a more precise term, like e.g. GNU/Linux would have catched on... The kernel is necessary for the OS, but for the user freedom kind of not that important, as can be seen by Google/Linux aka. Android.
bossyTeacher 3mo ago
Jolla depends on the AOSP. Graphene depends on the AOSP and Google Pixel phones. If Google Pixel phones ever got their bootloader locked, Graphene would die immediately. If AOSP ever went private, both would die. The risk space is bigger for Graphene.

mrbn100ful 4mo ago

They are (slowly) releasing more and more components https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/open-sourcing-proceeding/24689 https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/open-sourcing-proceeding/2468... https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-weather/ https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-weather/ https://github.com/sailfishos/jolla-camera https://github.com/sailfishos/jolla-camera It's still more open than AOSP

singpolyma3 4mo ago
I think you mean less. Since AOSP is fully open?
bri3d 4mo ago
> It's still more open than AOSP I don't think this is true at all? AOSP is completely open source modulo driver blobs (which Sailfish has too) and Google services. One can make a fully functional system, modulo drivers, out of only open-source components using AOSP. It's not possible to do this using Sailfish; the compositor, UI libraries (Silica), and most of the "core" apps are still closed source.
- dadoum 4mo ago
  If I remember correctly a lot of AOSP core apps have been discontinued though.
  - mrbn100ful 4mo ago
    Yes and most people don't realize that the current "AOSP" apps are the LineageOS apps. A true AOPS image is missing most core Apps.
  - microtonal 4mo ago
    I think people got too used to bundling by Apple and Google. For most of the core apps there are good and open source alternatives available. The main point is that AOSP as a system (modulo firmware) is open source and SailfishOS is not. Also, even though Sailfish has an Android compatibility layer (though only for official devices), compatibility is most likely always going to be worse than 'real' Android. That said, I hope that Jolla Phone becomes a success, more competition is good. Hopefully being funded better will move them to fully open source the base system.

fsflover 4mo ago

If the openness is important to you, you may want to have a look at other GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinephone. The former runs an FSF-endorsed Debian derivative.