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Yes. History will record that bin Laden won. There's a pre-9/11 book about bin Laden, "The Man Who Declared War on America". Bin Laden was interviewed. Consid

by Animats 4mo ago

Yes. History will record that bin Laden won. There's a pre-9/11 book about bin Laden, "The Man Who Declared War on America". Bin Laden was interviewed. Consider the situation at the end of the Clinton administration. The US was at peace. The Soviet Union was gone. The US got along with China and Russia. No major enemies remained. The federal budget was balanced. Bin Laden looked at that, and realized that America had to be weakened before it could be defeated. That was his plan. Mission accomplished. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Laden:_The_Man_Who_Declared_War_on_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Laden:_The_Man_Who_Declare...

andsoitis 4mo ago
> bin Laden won are his people better off or are they worse off?
- wmf 4mo ago
  Was his goal to provide for his people? I thought his goal was to bring down the Great Satan.
  - amanaplanacanal 4mo ago
    As mentioned above his main beef was American troops in the holy Land in Saudi Arabia.
    - expedition32 4mo ago
      No Bin Laden's beef was the flow of history. The Islamic world has lost its power and influence to control events. What really hurt Bin Laden was the knowledge that the Saudi elite WANTED American troops in the holy land. His real enemy was never America, the West or crusaders it was his fellow Muslims- who have for the large part rejected his insane ramblings.
- SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
  Al-Qaeda is larger and their allies in Afghanistan have further consolidated their rule. I might not call that "better off" but it's certainly in the direction bin Laden wanted things to go.
- shakna 4mo ago
  Most of the funding for the campaign came via Saudi Arabian citizens [0], and they have absolutely benefited from the change in political power in the Middle East. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20060311045338/http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3815179.stm https://web.archive.org/web/20060311045338/http://news.bbc.c...
  - red-iron-pine 4mo ago
    > Saudi Arabian citizens "Saudi Arabian citizens" == literally the House of Saud, and their direct associates. Bin Ladin came from a wealthy family of construction magnates with ties to the royals. It's like if Barron Trump decided to move to rural Ontario and start a Christian Identity movement.
derektank 4mo ago
Bin Laden’s ultimate objective was to evict US military forces from the Middle East. In response to 9/11, we massively expanded our footprint in the region and formed even deeper relationships with the Saudi government (whom Bin Laden hated for in his view, “[suspending] Islamic laws, and replacing it with statuary laws”). You can read it all in his original, late 90s declaration of jihad against the United States[1] and decide for yourself if you think he ultimately achieved what he wanted, but for my money, he lost basically everything. In the strictest sense, we did stop “occupying” (stationing troops) in Saudi Arabia itself after we kicked off the Iraq war and concentrated our forces in Iraq and at Al Udeid airbase, but I don’t think that was really the spirit of the thing. [1] https://ctc.westpoint.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Declaration-of-Jihad-against-the-Americans-Occupying-the-Land-of-the-Two-Holiest-Sites-Translation.pdf https://ctc.westpoint.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Declara...
- s5300 4mo ago
  [dead]
- mullingitover 4mo ago
  > Bin Laden’s ultimate objective was to evict US military forces from the Middle East Bush’s famous “Mission Accomplished” photo op was, ironically, on the same day US troops complied with bin Laden’s demand for them to leave Saudi Arabian soil.
  - ted_bunny 4mo ago
    Ironic? Or timed specifically to overshadow it in the news?
    - inemesitaffia 4mo ago
      But the US troops are still there.
      - mullingitover 4mo ago
walrus01 4mo ago
> Yes. History will record that bin Laden won Or as The Onion has put it: https://theonion.com/fbi-uncovers-al-qaeda-plot-to-just-sit-back-and-enjoy-c-1819576375/ https://theonion.com/fbi-uncovers-al-qaeda-plot-to-just-sit-...
rhubarbtree 4mo ago
Whilst I think there’s some truth to this, America’s elite would have brought us to this point anyway. Trump is a symptom of unfettered neoliberalism exporting jobs and destroying communities rather than a cause. Bin Laden drew America into forever wars and solidified their enemies in some dimensions. But America’s great downfall has been the ruthless pursuit of self-interest by its elite. They smashed the social compact and destroyed its institutions in the pursuit of profit. I think Bin Laden will get a chapter in the book on the fall of America, but Reagan will be on the front cover.
pembrook 4mo ago
Oh come on. You’re trying to be edgy without any understanding of reality. It’s like saying History will record Gavrilo Princip as having won WW1. Huh? America’s current troubles are political polarization and ballooning deficits. Both of which are happening in every developed country, having nothing to do with 9/11. The foreign interventionism is a 100 year tradition in the US, nothing new under the sun. The only thing Bin Laden accomplished is making air travel annoying, making some military contractors filthy rich, and getting hundreds of thousands of his Muslim brothers killed over values that are slowly eroding in the Middle East anyways. The American global military empire was always going to decline over time, if anything, his actions reversed that decline and led to more American intervention. He got the opposite of what he wanted.
- pjc50 4mo ago
  I do think spending a trillion dollars on Iraq might have something to do with the deficit.
  - pembrook 4mo ago
    Did France, Germany, the UK, etc. spend a trillion dollars in Iraq? How did they get themselves in the same ballooning deficit death spiral? The US did spend a Trillion on Iraq. But during Covid they spent nearly $5T...in 1/4th the time they spent 1 in Iraq. They also spent $9T on QE. Iraq is a drop in the bucket. The real problem is a structural one with modern democracies. Turns out when you can legally take your citizens money at gunpoint and also tax the entire world via inflationary money printing with few short term consequences, this power gets abused.
    - watwut 4mo ago
      Germany dont have the same ballooning debt problem: https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/usa?sc=XE02 https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/usa?sc=... Their economies have problems, but USA leads in debt.
      - 4mo ago
emmelaich 4mo ago
The problem started way before Bin Laden; in a large part due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb and his brother Mohammed who taught Osama Bin Laden. Many Muslims weren't political before the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood got enough influence.
mrtksn 4mo ago
What surprised me, was the indifference of people when all this was happening. Saying that the American response to the terrorist attacks was essentially the aim of the terrorist at first place and that they won just went unregistered - no counter arguments or rage or anything, no one cared about this claim.

by Animats 4mo ago

andsoitis 4mo ago

> bin Laden won are his people better off or are they worse off?

wmf 4mo ago
Was his goal to provide for his people? I thought his goal was to bring down the Great Satan.
- amanaplanacanal 4mo ago
  As mentioned above his main beef was American troops in the holy Land in Saudi Arabia.
  - expedition32 4mo ago
    No Bin Laden's beef was the flow of history. The Islamic world has lost its power and influence to control events. What really hurt Bin Laden was the knowledge that the Saudi elite WANTED American troops in the holy land. His real enemy was never America, the West or crusaders it was his fellow Muslims- who have for the large part rejected his insane ramblings.
SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
Al-Qaeda is larger and their allies in Afghanistan have further consolidated their rule. I might not call that "better off" but it's certainly in the direction bin Laden wanted things to go.
shakna 4mo ago
Most of the funding for the campaign came via Saudi Arabian citizens [0], and they have absolutely benefited from the change in political power in the Middle East. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20060311045338/http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3815179.stm https://web.archive.org/web/20060311045338/http://news.bbc.c...
- red-iron-pine 4mo ago
  > Saudi Arabian citizens "Saudi Arabian citizens" == literally the House of Saud, and their direct associates. Bin Ladin came from a wealthy family of construction magnates with ties to the royals. It's like if Barron Trump decided to move to rural Ontario and start a Christian Identity movement.

derektank 4mo ago

Bin Laden’s ultimate objective was to evict US military forces from the Middle East. In response to 9/11, we massively expanded our footprint in the region and formed even deeper relationships with the Saudi government (whom Bin Laden hated for in his view, “[suspending] Islamic laws, and replacing it with statuary laws”). You can read it all in his original, late 90s declaration of jihad against the United States[1] and decide for yourself if you think he ultimately achieved what he wanted, but for my money, he lost basically everything. In the strictest sense, we did stop “occupying” (stationing troops) in Saudi Arabia itself after we kicked off the Iraq war and concentrated our forces in Iraq and at Al Udeid airbase, but I don’t think that was really the spirit of the thing. [1] https://ctc.westpoint.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Declaration-of-Jihad-against-the-Americans-Occupying-the-Land-of-the-Two-Holiest-Sites-Translation.pdf https://ctc.westpoint.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Declara...

s5300 4mo ago
[dead]
mullingitover 4mo ago
> Bin Laden’s ultimate objective was to evict US military forces from the Middle East Bush’s famous “Mission Accomplished” photo op was, ironically, on the same day US troops complied with bin Laden’s demand for them to leave Saudi Arabian soil.
- ted_bunny 4mo ago
  Ironic? Or timed specifically to overshadow it in the news?
  - inemesitaffia 4mo ago
    But the US troops are still there.
    - mullingitover 4mo ago

walrus01 4mo ago

> Yes. History will record that bin Laden won Or as The Onion has put it: https://theonion.com/fbi-uncovers-al-qaeda-plot-to-just-sit-back-and-enjoy-c-1819576375/ https://theonion.com/fbi-uncovers-al-qaeda-plot-to-just-sit-...

rhubarbtree 4mo ago

Whilst I think there’s some truth to this, America’s elite would have brought us to this point anyway. Trump is a symptom of unfettered neoliberalism exporting jobs and destroying communities rather than a cause. Bin Laden drew America into forever wars and solidified their enemies in some dimensions. But America’s great downfall has been the ruthless pursuit of self-interest by its elite. They smashed the social compact and destroyed its institutions in the pursuit of profit. I think Bin Laden will get a chapter in the book on the fall of America, but Reagan will be on the front cover.

pembrook 4mo ago

Oh come on. You’re trying to be edgy without any understanding of reality. It’s like saying History will record Gavrilo Princip as having won WW1. Huh? America’s current troubles are political polarization and ballooning deficits. Both of which are happening in every developed country, having nothing to do with 9/11. The foreign interventionism is a 100 year tradition in the US, nothing new under the sun. The only thing Bin Laden accomplished is making air travel annoying, making some military contractors filthy rich, and getting hundreds of thousands of his Muslim brothers killed over values that are slowly eroding in the Middle East anyways. The American global military empire was always going to decline over time, if anything, his actions reversed that decline and led to more American intervention. He got the opposite of what he wanted.

pjc50 4mo ago
I do think spending a trillion dollars on Iraq might have something to do with the deficit.
- pembrook 4mo ago
  Did France, Germany, the UK, etc. spend a trillion dollars in Iraq? How did they get themselves in the same ballooning deficit death spiral? The US did spend a Trillion on Iraq. But during Covid they spent nearly $5T...in 1/4th the time they spent 1 in Iraq. They also spent $9T on QE. Iraq is a drop in the bucket. The real problem is a structural one with modern democracies. Turns out when you can legally take your citizens money at gunpoint and also tax the entire world via inflationary money printing with few short term consequences, this power gets abused.
  - watwut 4mo ago
    Germany dont have the same ballooning debt problem: https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/usa?sc=XE02 https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/usa?sc=... Their economies have problems, but USA leads in debt.
    - 4mo ago

emmelaich 4mo ago

The problem started way before Bin Laden; in a large part due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb and his brother Mohammed who taught Osama Bin Laden. Many Muslims weren't political before the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood got enough influence.

mrtksn 4mo ago

What surprised me, was the indifference of people when all this was happening. Saying that the American response to the terrorist attacks was essentially the aim of the terrorist at first place and that they won just went unregistered - no counter arguments or rage or anything, no one cared about this claim.