5 ms·

>He goes way too far though. Especially if he actually wants change, the way he "protests" is directly damaging his own cause, since nobody is going to sympathi

by Lerc 4mo ago

>He goes way too far though. Especially if he actually wants change, the way he "protests" is directly damaging his own cause, since nobody is going to sympathise with harrassing children. I don't think this is a given. Just Stop Oil says that their tactics do make people hate them, but their research tells them that it still makes peoples opinions on the issues move in the direction that they want them to. Their position is that if they achieve what they want while gathering animosity towards their organisation, once achieved, they can disband.

joe_mamba 4mo ago
> but their research tells them Thier "research" might be full of yes men.
- prepend 4mo ago
  I suspect their research is as rigorous and valid as their philosophy.
  - TremendousJudge 4mo ago
    what do you think they should do instead of what they currently do?
    - amiga386 4mo ago
      They should find some other way to peacock in front of their fellow upper-class friends, because it annoys the fuck out of normal people that Tarquin and Cecily come from money and thus have the free time to throw soup on paintings or whatever publicity-seeking guff they try next. If they want to fix the climate crisis, they should engage with normal people and find effective ways for them to save money (e.g. like https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/ https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/ do) or pressure councils and such into providing better public transport (e.g. like https://bettertransport.org.uk/ https://bettertransport.org.uk/ do). People don't consume oil because they intrinsicly like consuming oil. People use private cars that consume oil because nobody else gives a shit (especially not councils) about their needs to get from A to B on time and doesn't offer suitable public transport. People don't buy into mad schemes that require £20,000 upfront and might return about £200 a year in savings, just for ideological reasons. They need cheaper things that pay off sooner, like portable solar panels they can put out in the garden when it's sunny. Probably the best thing they could do is tell all their other ecological activists to stop being NIMBYs and stop protesting against pylons, so we can get lovely clean renewable energy, generated by turbines in the North Sea, to all the places in Britain where it's needed, especially the south east of England.
pcrh 4mo ago
This is referred to as shifting the Overton window. If voices from the extreme are not heard, the Overton window moves away from their position, so protests help their cause even if only a minority completely agree with them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
- oooyay 4mo ago
  I don't think Overton implied any causality between the phases of the window, just that distinct phases exist and that forces act on the window to cause it to shrink, expand, and shift.
  - Lerc 4mo ago
    Interestingly, considering my post above, I think that view of the Overton window misrepresents what Overton thought. It was first and foremost a decription based on observation, but I think it conveyed that he felt that the Overton window was moved by vorces in the middle, and forces at the extremes moved it in the other direction. There is a distinction to be made of how strongly the opinion is held compared to how much the opinion differs to the median view. I think there is a correlation at the extremes, but I think the Just Stop Oil approach is deliberately splitting those two, performing extreme actions to promote a view that is not terribly extreme. This is consistent with the view of the Overton window that the extremes repel and the moderate attracts. Compare that to a vegan who doesn't campaign, but silently judges every meat eater as a murderer. If their views were more public, it may drive people the other way.
warumdarum 4mo ago
Its a know tatic to sponsor the extreme fringe to discredit a cause. Just stop oil receiving oil money?
- stephen_g 4mo ago
  If it’s a “well known tactic” (well known by whom?) then it’s a counter-productive one - the more the extreme is heard in the mainstream, the more rational the slightly less extreme version sounds (It’s something the right-wing tends to use extremely effectively, the left wing spends too much energy infighting)
  - tuesdaynight 4mo ago
    For the first time, I see that being a problem to right-wing parties, specially in USA. Now you have neonazis gathering a community by saying you are not extreme enough, and harassing the Jewish people of your side. It's crazy when you compare that to 10 years ago, but it is what it is.
flumes_whims_ 4mo ago
Isn't Just Stop Oil funded by an oil heiress?
- dibujaron 4mo ago
  If it is, would that bad? Seems like a person who might really have strong personal investment in the situation. Using the oil companies' profits to try to shrink them, seems good.
- nozzlegear 4mo ago
  Teddy Roosevelt was the son of a wealthy and famous railroad baron, but he used that upbringing and status to rein in corporate monopolies and bust the oil barons' empires wide open, which started the decline of the gilded age. All that to say, being a wealthy, elite and privileged oil heiress doesn't necessarily mean this person doesn't want to end oil consumption. (I don't know anything about her.)
basilikum 4mo ago
> but their research tells them that it still makes peoples opinions on the issues move in the direction that they want them to. I'd really like to see that research.

by Lerc 4mo ago

joe_mamba 4mo ago

> but their research tells them Thier "research" might be full of yes men.

prepend 4mo ago
I suspect their research is as rigorous and valid as their philosophy.
- TremendousJudge 4mo ago
  what do you think they should do instead of what they currently do?
  - amiga386 4mo ago
    They should find some other way to peacock in front of their fellow upper-class friends, because it annoys the fuck out of normal people that Tarquin and Cecily come from money and thus have the free time to throw soup on paintings or whatever publicity-seeking guff they try next. If they want to fix the climate crisis, they should engage with normal people and find effective ways for them to save money (e.g. like https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/ https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/ do) or pressure councils and such into providing better public transport (e.g. like https://bettertransport.org.uk/ https://bettertransport.org.uk/ do). People don't consume oil because they intrinsicly like consuming oil. People use private cars that consume oil because nobody else gives a shit (especially not councils) about their needs to get from A to B on time and doesn't offer suitable public transport. People don't buy into mad schemes that require £20,000 upfront and might return about £200 a year in savings, just for ideological reasons. They need cheaper things that pay off sooner, like portable solar panels they can put out in the garden when it's sunny. Probably the best thing they could do is tell all their other ecological activists to stop being NIMBYs and stop protesting against pylons, so we can get lovely clean renewable energy, generated by turbines in the North Sea, to all the places in Britain where it's needed, especially the south east of England.

pcrh 4mo ago

This is referred to as shifting the Overton window. If voices from the extreme are not heard, the Overton window moves away from their position, so protests help their cause even if only a minority completely agree with them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

oooyay 4mo ago
I don't think Overton implied any causality between the phases of the window, just that distinct phases exist and that forces act on the window to cause it to shrink, expand, and shift.
- Lerc 4mo ago
  Interestingly, considering my post above, I think that view of the Overton window misrepresents what Overton thought. It was first and foremost a decription based on observation, but I think it conveyed that he felt that the Overton window was moved by vorces in the middle, and forces at the extremes moved it in the other direction. There is a distinction to be made of how strongly the opinion is held compared to how much the opinion differs to the median view. I think there is a correlation at the extremes, but I think the Just Stop Oil approach is deliberately splitting those two, performing extreme actions to promote a view that is not terribly extreme. This is consistent with the view of the Overton window that the extremes repel and the moderate attracts. Compare that to a vegan who doesn't campaign, but silently judges every meat eater as a murderer. If their views were more public, it may drive people the other way.

warumdarum 4mo ago

Its a know tatic to sponsor the extreme fringe to discredit a cause. Just stop oil receiving oil money?

stephen_g 4mo ago
If it’s a “well known tactic” (well known by whom?) then it’s a counter-productive one - the more the extreme is heard in the mainstream, the more rational the slightly less extreme version sounds (It’s something the right-wing tends to use extremely effectively, the left wing spends too much energy infighting)
- tuesdaynight 4mo ago
  For the first time, I see that being a problem to right-wing parties, specially in USA. Now you have neonazis gathering a community by saying you are not extreme enough, and harassing the Jewish people of your side. It's crazy when you compare that to 10 years ago, but it is what it is.

flumes_whims_ 4mo ago

Isn't Just Stop Oil funded by an oil heiress?

dibujaron 4mo ago
If it is, would that bad? Seems like a person who might really have strong personal investment in the situation. Using the oil companies' profits to try to shrink them, seems good.
nozzlegear 4mo ago
Teddy Roosevelt was the son of a wealthy and famous railroad baron, but he used that upbringing and status to rein in corporate monopolies and bust the oil barons' empires wide open, which started the decline of the gilded age. All that to say, being a wealthy, elite and privileged oil heiress doesn't necessarily mean this person doesn't want to end oil consumption. (I don't know anything about her.)

basilikum 4mo ago

> but their research tells them that it still makes peoples opinions on the issues move in the direction that they want them to. I'd really like to see that research.