5 ms·

The cost of EV energy (to the driver) is about half that of the cost of gas energy. And that's if you buy electricity at charging stations [1]. If you charge a

The cost of EV energy (to the driver) is about half that of the cost of gas energy. And that's if you buy electricity at charging stations [1]. If you charge at home it gets less. If you have solar at home it approaches zero. Yes, the cost of the car itself is a factor, but even there prices are dropping all the time. >> when you can only take 10% as much fuel effeciency makes all the difference when we discuss % of fuel. 90% of 100 mj is the same as 30% of 300 mj. So already the "fuel" can be 66% less. Generally though the raw amount of mj isn't a very important number. A better measure (which takes effeciency, and tank size into account) is "range". But even that is somewhat meaningless. At some point range is "enough". For daily commutes that may be 50 miles. For long-distance it might be 500 miles. In only a very few cases would a pickup with 2000 mile range be more useful than one with 1000 mile range. Plus you can also factor in maintenance costs. The cost of ownership of an ev, from a service and maintenance point of view is a lot lower. [1] ymmv somewhat. Although electricity prices vary a lot, so do gas prices. The 50% saving (at worst) is a pretty good rule of thumb though.

HPsquared 4mo ago
Indeed, solar panels and EVs are the way of the self-sufficient rugged individualist. It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc.
- tialaramex 4mo ago
  Right, the set of people who actually pump their own oil out of the ground, refine it into something you can put in a modern vehicle engine and drive around on that is likely zero, but the set of people who own panels and storage so they can fill their EV includes my team lead, who is just some guy on a pretty average salary living on a modern housing estate. The bio-fuel people at least make some kind of sense compared to fossil fuel "survivalists" - but again they're portrayed as just tree huggers!
- qsera 4mo ago
  >It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc. If there is such a marketing, then people relate to it because EVs are not suited for handling unpredictable situation. You got stuck in a ditch in the middle of nowhere at night, you loss all of your battery getting out of it, and now you are stuck. So you can't take it to unforgiving places. EVs are great for boring commute that is it. I don't see it changing any time soon.
  - jl6 4mo ago
    Surely you call a recovery truck to come pull you out and do an emergency charge on your battery, similar to how they’d provide you with emergency gas if your tank ran dry? Or tow you if they don’t have a charger?
  - hnuser123456 4mo ago
    Tow trucks are sometimes needed for gasoline cars too.
  - elsonrodriguez 4mo ago
    If you run out of gas you’re also stuck. Only upside is that the recovery service can bring you a few gallons of fuel instead of a tow.
    - XorNot 4mo ago
      I somewhat suspect that's a temporary state of affairs. Nothing prevents a couple tons of batteries being put on a truck with a CCS charger to achieve the same thing. It won't be efficient but neither is driving a few liters of fuel to someone from a gas station.
      - ninalanyon 4mo ago
        Such things already exist in Europe. The RAC for instance: https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/call-breakdown-provider-ev-runs-out-of-charge/ https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/call-breakdown-provider-ev-ru...
- Gibbon1 4mo ago
  I think 1600 watts of solar panels produces enough energy to drive an EV 12000 miles a year. Your car though would have to be always plugged in during the day. But probably 3200 watts would be enough for a car used for commuting to be charged mornings, evenings, and weekends.
  - gpm 4mo ago
    > Your car though would have to be always plugged in during the day Or just have a second stationary battery to store up the energy while you're away during the day.
    - sitkack 4mo ago
      Two cars, much cheaper than a second battery pack. And you have a supply of rolling spare parts.
      - gpm 4mo ago
        This is probably the case right now, but I have faith the market will mature and fix that absurdity.
        sitkack 4mo ago
        i was thinking used where you can get a Nissan Leaf which is a 75 kW, 20 kWh rolling battery pack.
      - bryanlarsen 4mo ago
        That's no longer the case. You can buy Chinese rack batteries for prices approaching $100/kWh.
        gpm 4mo ago
        Are they UL certified? If so do you have a brand you can point me at by any chance?
kleiba2 4mo ago
Before the Iran war, I did a back of the envelope calculation for the price of gas of your average ICE for a certain fixed range vs. the price of electricity an average EV uses for the same range. This was under the assumption that you buy electricity at a random charging station that you don't have a contract with. Based on these average values I used, EVs fared slightly worse. This was not factoring in costs of purchase or repairs etc. And all averages were taken off the internet so everything had to be taken with more than a grain of salt. But the outcome was nowhere near your statement of EV energy costing about half of the cost of gas for the driver.
- lostlogin 4mo ago
  Doing the equation regularly would be interesting. There are some other parameters to consider too. Stopping for fuel is not something I enjoyed. I can charge at home. You won’t have to stop to refuel in an EV unless you’re going a long way. If you’re going a long way the stop will be longer. Much worse. You won’t service an EV much, that’s nice. The silence is bliss.
- sarchertech 4mo ago
  Were you using DC fast charging stations or level 2? Fast charging is about 2x the price.
  - tialaramex 4mo ago
    If you think about it as "buying fuel" rather than as just a routine part of owning the vehicle I think the "fast charging" seems like how you'd do it. Like how at the turn of the century people bought a mobile telephone to make telephone calls. What do mean it's a computer? Why would you want a handheld computer? Humans are like this about a lot of things, imagine what it was like before widespread universal literacy. Why are we teaching everybody to read? What are they going to do with that skill? Until you've tried it, the fact that your entire populace can read doesn't seem like it would make a big difference.
    - bruce511 4mo ago
mercutio2 4mo ago
Before I drove an EV, I drove a 50 mpg Prius. At California prices of ~$4/gallon, that’s $.08/mile. My post wildfires NEM2 off peak rate for electricity is $.40/kWh. My Bolt gets 4.5 miles/kWh. That’s $.1125/mile. If I were driving a Tesla it would be worse (my wife’s Tesla lies mercilessly about its range when full; it’s like Elon Musk recapitulates himself; real world it gets about 3.5 miles/kWh), and if I drove a Rivian it would be MUCH worse. So, in California, it isn’t true at all (mostly because rate payers are funding PG&E’s liability) that the most efficient EVs are cheaper than a good mileage gas car. No where near a 2x advantage (it was better, but not nearly 50%, when I bought it, more like 90% of the gas cost). At no point has it ever been close to 50% cheaper for fuel in California (which, as it happens, sells by far the most EVs). Generally speaking, I think EV proponents (like me!) should spend a lot less time promoting “it’s cheaper”. It is, in practice, cheaper, because maintenance is cheaper. But Americans don’t care about levelized costs, they care about the highest salience variable expenses, and trying to convince them to do otherwise is a losing argument.
- bruce511 4mo ago
  Regarding range, and this is true for ICE too, how you drive matters enormously. There are lots of techniques that improve gas consumption or range. And yes, I'm sure there are places where gas and electricity get closer together. In the US gas is mostly untaxed. So it's closer. Elsewhere the tax-cost of gas works in EVs favor. [1]. Also I think PG&E is perhaps not representative of electricity producers. So sure, in your area, the finances only make sense if you factor in maintenance. And if gas prices remain stable. And if you don't have solar. But again, all these factors vary wildly in various places. [1] in the long run these taxes will need to be made up elsewhere. So that's a temp saving. But I'm enjoying it while it lasts.

HPsquared 4mo ago

Indeed, solar panels and EVs are the way of the self-sufficient rugged individualist. It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc.

tialaramex 4mo ago
Right, the set of people who actually pump their own oil out of the ground, refine it into something you can put in a modern vehicle engine and drive around on that is likely zero, but the set of people who own panels and storage so they can fill their EV includes my team lead, who is just some guy on a pretty average salary living on a modern housing estate. The bio-fuel people at least make some kind of sense compared to fossil fuel "survivalists" - but again they're portrayed as just tree huggers!
qsera 4mo ago
>It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc. If there is such a marketing, then people relate to it because EVs are not suited for handling unpredictable situation. You got stuck in a ditch in the middle of nowhere at night, you loss all of your battery getting out of it, and now you are stuck. So you can't take it to unforgiving places. EVs are great for boring commute that is it. I don't see it changing any time soon.
- jl6 4mo ago
  Surely you call a recovery truck to come pull you out and do an emergency charge on your battery, similar to how they’d provide you with emergency gas if your tank ran dry? Or tow you if they don’t have a charger?
- hnuser123456 4mo ago
  Tow trucks are sometimes needed for gasoline cars too.
- elsonrodriguez 4mo ago
  If you run out of gas you’re also stuck. Only upside is that the recovery service can bring you a few gallons of fuel instead of a tow.
  - XorNot 4mo ago
    I somewhat suspect that's a temporary state of affairs. Nothing prevents a couple tons of batteries being put on a truck with a CCS charger to achieve the same thing. It won't be efficient but neither is driving a few liters of fuel to someone from a gas station.
    - ninalanyon 4mo ago
      Such things already exist in Europe. The RAC for instance: https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/call-breakdown-provider-ev-runs-out-of-charge/ https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/call-breakdown-provider-ev-ru...
Gibbon1 4mo ago
I think 1600 watts of solar panels produces enough energy to drive an EV 12000 miles a year. Your car though would have to be always plugged in during the day. But probably 3200 watts would be enough for a car used for commuting to be charged mornings, evenings, and weekends.
- gpm 4mo ago
  > Your car though would have to be always plugged in during the day Or just have a second stationary battery to store up the energy while you're away during the day.
  - sitkack 4mo ago
    Two cars, much cheaper than a second battery pack. And you have a supply of rolling spare parts.
    - gpm 4mo ago
      This is probably the case right now, but I have faith the market will mature and fix that absurdity.
      - sitkack 4mo ago
        i was thinking used where you can get a Nissan Leaf which is a 75 kW, 20 kWh rolling battery pack.
    - bryanlarsen 4mo ago
      That's no longer the case. You can buy Chinese rack batteries for prices approaching $100/kWh.
      - gpm 4mo ago
        Are they UL certified? If so do you have a brand you can point me at by any chance?

kleiba2 4mo ago

Before the Iran war, I did a back of the envelope calculation for the price of gas of your average ICE for a certain fixed range vs. the price of electricity an average EV uses for the same range. This was under the assumption that you buy electricity at a random charging station that you don't have a contract with. Based on these average values I used, EVs fared slightly worse. This was not factoring in costs of purchase or repairs etc. And all averages were taken off the internet so everything had to be taken with more than a grain of salt. But the outcome was nowhere near your statement of EV energy costing about half of the cost of gas for the driver.

lostlogin 4mo ago
Doing the equation regularly would be interesting. There are some other parameters to consider too. Stopping for fuel is not something I enjoyed. I can charge at home. You won’t have to stop to refuel in an EV unless you’re going a long way. If you’re going a long way the stop will be longer. Much worse. You won’t service an EV much, that’s nice. The silence is bliss.
sarchertech 4mo ago
Were you using DC fast charging stations or level 2? Fast charging is about 2x the price.
- tialaramex 4mo ago
  If you think about it as "buying fuel" rather than as just a routine part of owning the vehicle I think the "fast charging" seems like how you'd do it. Like how at the turn of the century people bought a mobile telephone to make telephone calls. What do mean it's a computer? Why would you want a handheld computer? Humans are like this about a lot of things, imagine what it was like before widespread universal literacy. Why are we teaching everybody to read? What are they going to do with that skill? Until you've tried it, the fact that your entire populace can read doesn't seem like it would make a big difference.
  - bruce511 4mo ago

mercutio2 4mo ago

Before I drove an EV, I drove a 50 mpg Prius. At California prices of ~$4/gallon, that’s $.08/mile. My post wildfires NEM2 off peak rate for electricity is $.40/kWh. My Bolt gets 4.5 miles/kWh. That’s $.1125/mile. If I were driving a Tesla it would be worse (my wife’s Tesla lies mercilessly about its range when full; it’s like Elon Musk recapitulates himself; real world it gets about 3.5 miles/kWh), and if I drove a Rivian it would be MUCH worse. So, in California, it isn’t true at all (mostly because rate payers are funding PG&E’s liability) that the most efficient EVs are cheaper than a good mileage gas car. No where near a 2x advantage (it was better, but not nearly 50%, when I bought it, more like 90% of the gas cost). At no point has it ever been close to 50% cheaper for fuel in California (which, as it happens, sells by far the most EVs). Generally speaking, I think EV proponents (like me!) should spend a lot less time promoting “it’s cheaper”. It is, in practice, cheaper, because maintenance is cheaper. But Americans don’t care about levelized costs, they care about the highest salience variable expenses, and trying to convince them to do otherwise is a losing argument.

bruce511 4mo ago
Regarding range, and this is true for ICE too, how you drive matters enormously. There are lots of techniques that improve gas consumption or range. And yes, I'm sure there are places where gas and electricity get closer together. In the US gas is mostly untaxed. So it's closer. Elsewhere the tax-cost of gas works in EVs favor. [1]. Also I think PG&E is perhaps not representative of electricity producers. So sure, in your area, the finances only make sense if you factor in maintenance. And if gas prices remain stable. And if you don't have solar. But again, all these factors vary wildly in various places. [1] in the long run these taxes will need to be made up elsewhere. So that's a temp saving. But I'm enjoying it while it lasts.