5 ms·

In an EV about 90% of the energy used is converted into motion. About 10% goes to heat. [1][3] In an ICE engine about 30% of the energy becomes motion. About 7

In an EV about 90% of the energy used is converted into motion. About 10% goes to heat. [1][3] In an ICE engine about 30% of the energy becomes motion. About 70% is heat.[2] In other words electric motors are about 3 times more efficient than ICE. [1] an interesting side effect of this is that in cold climates you can't just harvest waste heat to heat the cabin (or batteries. ) So you end up using some battery energy if you need heat. [2] ICE motors vary in effeciency a lot. 20-30% is typical. The Carnot formula comes into play here. [3] because there is so little heat generated, the cooling systems (EVs still have them) are much smaller. And simpler (for example, no fan, 'cause there's no heat when standing still.)

tsss 4mo ago
Who cares about motor efficiency when you can only take 10% as much fuel. At the end of the day, cost is the only metric that matters.
- bruce511 4mo ago
  The cost of EV energy (to the driver) is about half that of the cost of gas energy. And that's if you buy electricity at charging stations [1]. If you charge at home it gets less. If you have solar at home it approaches zero. Yes, the cost of the car itself is a factor, but even there prices are dropping all the time. >> when you can only take 10% as much fuel effeciency makes all the difference when we discuss % of fuel. 90% of 100 mj is the same as 30% of 300 mj. So already the "fuel" can be 66% less. Generally though the raw amount of mj isn't a very important number. A better measure (which takes effeciency, and tank size into account) is "range". But even that is somewhat meaningless. At some point range is "enough". For daily commutes that may be 50 miles. For long-distance it might be 500 miles. In only a very few cases would a pickup with 2000 mile range be more useful than one with 1000 mile range. Plus you can also factor in maintenance costs. The cost of ownership of an ev, from a service and maintenance point of view is a lot lower. [1] ymmv somewhat. Although electricity prices vary a lot, so do gas prices. The 50% saving (at worst) is a pretty good rule of thumb though.
  - HPsquared 4mo ago
    Indeed, solar panels and EVs are the way of the self-sufficient rugged individualist. It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc.
    - tialaramex 4mo ago
      Right, the set of people who actually pump their own oil out of the ground, refine it into something you can put in a modern vehicle engine and drive around on that is likely zero, but the set of people who own panels and storage so they can fill their EV includes my team lead, who is just some guy on a pretty average salary living on a modern housing estate. The bio-fuel people at least make some kind of sense compared to fossil fuel "survivalists" - but again they're portrayed as just tree huggers!
    - qsera 4mo ago
      >It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc. If there is such a marketing, then people relate to it because EVs are not suited for handling unpredictable situation. You got stuck in a ditch in the middle of nowhere at night, you loss all of your battery getting out of it, and now you are stuck. So you can't take it to unforgiving places. EVs are great for boring commute that is it. I don't see it changing any time soon.
      - jl6 4mo ago
        Surely you call a recovery truck to come pull you out and do an emergency charge on your battery, similar to how they’d provide you with emergency gas if your tank ran dry? Or tow you if they don’t have a charger?
      - hnuser123456 4mo ago
        Tow trucks are sometimes needed for gasoline cars too.
      - elsonrodriguez 4mo ago
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- olivermuty 4mo ago
  My xpeng g9 goes about 570km in summer. Less in winter, like 480 maybe. Longest range ICE i had was a mercedes wagon that went 1050km on one tank of gas. Filling the wagon today would cost me like 170 euro. Filling my xpeng happens overnight and is about 7-9 euro depending on grid pricing.
- titzer 4mo ago
  > cost is the only metric that matters. Negative externalities like pollution and climate change are not even priced in. Even if they were priced in, there are non-monetary factors that we could consider once in a while, but the conversation tends back to dollars.
  - robocat 4mo ago
    Many countries have high fuel taxes that approximate pricing in the negative externalities. Assuming you think price as a signal is the solution to dealing with those externalities, it doesn't matter what caused the price to be high.
    - titzer 4mo ago
      Fuel taxes are "in theory" the mechanism to price these in, but today, they are not, and how this money eventually has the opposite effect! Revenue from fuel taxes is usually funneled to more transportation infrastructure (> 80% to road construction in the US, only 15% to mass transit). The vast (and ironic!) indirect effect is more cars, more car miles, and more consumption--a long-term, indirect subsidy to fuel and auto industries. Approximately zero goes to regulation enforcement (like emissions inspections and other enforcement), which is funded by usage fees and general income taxes.
      - robocat 4mo ago
        My underlying point is that money is fungible. How you account for the tax dollars received doesn't affect the pricing signal. We have accounting systems to colour tax dollars. However that doesn't mean you can define cause and effect like you are attempting to do. Although I've no idea what we should do.
- margalabargala 4mo ago
  The commenters above, is the answer to your question. Based on their discussion, there are metrics besides cost that matter to them. Not everyone is you.
- hinkley 4mo ago
  Very, very few people actually need to drive 500 miles in a day. Tank size is about convenience, about how often you need to go get gas and what times of day the stations are open. You can recharge your car at home every night. At 2 in the morning.

tsss 4mo ago

Who cares about motor efficiency when you can only take 10% as much fuel. At the end of the day, cost is the only metric that matters.

bruce511 4mo ago
The cost of EV energy (to the driver) is about half that of the cost of gas energy. And that's if you buy electricity at charging stations [1]. If you charge at home it gets less. If you have solar at home it approaches zero. Yes, the cost of the car itself is a factor, but even there prices are dropping all the time. >> when you can only take 10% as much fuel effeciency makes all the difference when we discuss % of fuel. 90% of 100 mj is the same as 30% of 300 mj. So already the "fuel" can be 66% less. Generally though the raw amount of mj isn't a very important number. A better measure (which takes effeciency, and tank size into account) is "range". But even that is somewhat meaningless. At some point range is "enough". For daily commutes that may be 50 miles. For long-distance it might be 500 miles. In only a very few cases would a pickup with 2000 mile range be more useful than one with 1000 mile range. Plus you can also factor in maintenance costs. The cost of ownership of an ev, from a service and maintenance point of view is a lot lower. [1] ymmv somewhat. Although electricity prices vary a lot, so do gas prices. The 50% saving (at worst) is a pretty good rule of thumb though.
- HPsquared 4mo ago
  Indeed, solar panels and EVs are the way of the self-sufficient rugged individualist. It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc.
  - tialaramex 4mo ago
    Right, the set of people who actually pump their own oil out of the ground, refine it into something you can put in a modern vehicle engine and drive around on that is likely zero, but the set of people who own panels and storage so they can fill their EV includes my team lead, who is just some guy on a pretty average salary living on a modern housing estate. The bio-fuel people at least make some kind of sense compared to fossil fuel "survivalists" - but again they're portrayed as just tree huggers!
  - qsera 4mo ago
    >It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc. If there is such a marketing, then people relate to it because EVs are not suited for handling unpredictable situation. You got stuck in a ditch in the middle of nowhere at night, you loss all of your battery getting out of it, and now you are stuck. So you can't take it to unforgiving places. EVs are great for boring commute that is it. I don't see it changing any time soon.
    - jl6 4mo ago
      Surely you call a recovery truck to come pull you out and do an emergency charge on your battery, similar to how they’d provide you with emergency gas if your tank ran dry? Or tow you if they don’t have a charger?
    - hnuser123456 4mo ago
      Tow trucks are sometimes needed for gasoline cars too.
    - elsonrodriguez 4mo ago
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
olivermuty 4mo ago
My xpeng g9 goes about 570km in summer. Less in winter, like 480 maybe. Longest range ICE i had was a mercedes wagon that went 1050km on one tank of gas. Filling the wagon today would cost me like 170 euro. Filling my xpeng happens overnight and is about 7-9 euro depending on grid pricing.
titzer 4mo ago
> cost is the only metric that matters. Negative externalities like pollution and climate change are not even priced in. Even if they were priced in, there are non-monetary factors that we could consider once in a while, but the conversation tends back to dollars.
- robocat 4mo ago
  Many countries have high fuel taxes that approximate pricing in the negative externalities. Assuming you think price as a signal is the solution to dealing with those externalities, it doesn't matter what caused the price to be high.
  - titzer 4mo ago
    Fuel taxes are "in theory" the mechanism to price these in, but today, they are not, and how this money eventually has the opposite effect! Revenue from fuel taxes is usually funneled to more transportation infrastructure (> 80% to road construction in the US, only 15% to mass transit). The vast (and ironic!) indirect effect is more cars, more car miles, and more consumption--a long-term, indirect subsidy to fuel and auto industries. Approximately zero goes to regulation enforcement (like emissions inspections and other enforcement), which is funded by usage fees and general income taxes.
    - robocat 4mo ago
      My underlying point is that money is fungible. How you account for the tax dollars received doesn't affect the pricing signal. We have accounting systems to colour tax dollars. However that doesn't mean you can define cause and effect like you are attempting to do. Although I've no idea what we should do.
margalabargala 4mo ago
The commenters above, is the answer to your question. Based on their discussion, there are metrics besides cost that matter to them. Not everyone is you.
hinkley 4mo ago
Very, very few people actually need to drive 500 miles in a day. Tank size is about convenience, about how often you need to go get gas and what times of day the stations are open. You can recharge your car at home every night. At 2 in the morning.