5 ms·

One of the reasons I left North America for Europe is that such things are normalised. The cultural difference is staggering. In Germany, if you are on vacatio

by nicbou 4mo ago

One of the reasons I left North America for Europe is that such things are normalised. The cultural difference is staggering. In Germany, if you are on vacation, you are simply not available. You are dead to the world until you return. Emails do not get read, and devices get left at the office. Another neat thing is that if you get sick on vacation, you get your vacation days back, because vacation days are for resting and recovering.

fender256 4mo ago
Thanks for the reminder that this shouldn't be taken for granted. I am a German and sometimes this privilege feels so normal that it's unthinkable that it could be different elsewhere in the world.
- nicbou 4mo ago
  I help immigrants integrate for a living. Germany can be a frustrating country, but this is one of its best redeeming qualities. I'd also add that the culture allows and encourages sick days. The average is 15 sick days per year IIRC.
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
  - patates 4mo ago
    Totally off-topic, but I read your profile to learn about this: https://allaboutberlin.com https://allaboutberlin.com - you do awesome work, thank you! Now I wonder if I could help the immigrants in my area (I'm in Hesse/Hessen), thanks for the inspiration too.
  - teruakohatu 4mo ago
    The average number of sick days used is 15 or the number of days offered? In New Zealand we get a minimum of 10 sick working days per year but some companies offer more and allow unused sick leave to accumulate.
    - tumdum_ 4mo ago
      Sick days are not “offered” by employers. Sick days are prescribed by the doctors and there is no upper limit. After all, your sickness will not disappear just because it has been N days. That's at last how it is in Poland.
      - Autious 4mo ago
        Sweden has 14 sick days no questions asked before you need a doctors note. The German way of having to call your doctor for a flu note is a little odd to me. You do loose the first day's pay (the meme is that too many people were off sick when there was a world cup finals or something), and then 80% pay.
        lionkor 4mo ago
        This is not accurate. In Germany, you usually only have to get a doctor's note at 2 or 3 days, if youre only sick for a day or two you don't need one. And there's an unlimited number of sick days. As long as you have a doctor's note, you still get paid, up to some ridiculous limit at which you might have to get government support instead.
        fabian2k 4mo ago
        It's up to the employer, they can ask for a doctor's note from day 1. Many employers have more lenient rules, though.
        inigyou 4mo ago
        I think at some limit the health insurance pays back the employer, right?
        jorvi 4mo ago
        > You do loose the first day's pay Many countries have this system and the usual effect is that the duration people are sick for is magically never less than 2 days. It's dumb policy.
naturalmovement 4mo ago
It can honestly be annoying, if you're not privvy to it. I remember years ago needing urgent support for some bespoke European hardware we were developing software for. When we called support, we were greeted with a phone message stating the company was closed for the entire month due to vacation. This was not a one-man operation; the whole office closed for a summer holiday. We thought it was a joke. Needless to say we started to look for a new vendor shortly thereafter...
- breakingcups 4mo ago
  I mean, that's not usual at all in Europe either.
- my-next-account 4mo ago
  I'm surprised, typically we don't all take vacation at the same time, but stagger it.
  - calessian 4mo ago
    It's not entirely uncommon, even companies like Volkswagen have 3 weeks of summer vacation. Strictly speaking, some people still work there for maintenance, etc. that can't be done while making cars, but the majority is on vacation. I know a handful of companies with a week of mandatory Christmas vacation as well (but there's typically not too many working days between Christmas and New Years' either way).
    - Symbiote 4mo ago
      In England, I had summer jobs in factories when I was a teenager, since they needed extra hands to help with cleaning / maintenance during the annual shutdown. I don't know if this work would have been offered to staff who turned it down, or if they preferred to have their staff on holiday at the same time.
  - prmoustache 4mo ago
    It really depends on the areas. On white collar jobs yes. It is more frequent in blue collars workers because it is easier to close completely or partially (several lines) in a factory than having to manage different vacations schedules. Constructions companies also do stop because you usually need most workers available + hot weather makes it harder anyway. Small/familiar companies also do it frequently because it doesn't make sense to work if you have dependencies on a number or unavailable persons.
blauditore 4mo ago
> if you are on vacation, you are simply not available. You are dead to the world until you return. Emails do not get read, and devices get left at the office. It's funny because that's kind of the definition of a vacation in my book. I find it weird that some places in the world handle it differently. Note that it's also much better for the company in the long run: It's a test of resilience and redundany, the famous bus factor. It simulates what happens if someone is not available, and forces the organization around to have a backup plan. Having those is important for cases where employees leave the company or team (switching jobs/teams, accidents, sickness, parental leave, death, burnout, layoffs etc.). It's mind-boggling how many leads at various levels just don't understand that.
- alibarber 4mo ago
  I remember vaguely from interning at a bank that there you were actually obliged to be totally isolated from the company for a continuous period of time by policy. The thinking was that if you were cooking the books of doing some dodgy dealing on the side it would come to light without you there to actively 'manage' it.
BadBadJellyBean 4mo ago
Not to forget that you get a minimum of four weeks of vacation per year with 30 days being offered most of the time. This year I used my vacation time well and I already had 3 weeks off while I still have almost 4 weeks left.
Cthulhu_ 4mo ago
This is how it should be though - nobody should be irreplaceable. Look up bus factor etc.
gacgacgac 4mo ago
I'm a senior at a big tech company. You can do this in America too. Just communicate with your manager and set the boundary. "By the way, when I'm on vacation I'm away from devices, so let's coordinate beforehand if there's anything critical path."
- coldpie 4mo ago
  100%, and it extends beyond vacations, too. Unless you have a formal on-call arrangement, then any time you spend doing work stuff outside of your work hours is time you are choosing to donate to your company. It's fine if you want to do that, but you don't have to. I work 8-4 every day. I am not contactable outside that window and definitely not contactable on my days off. I haven't worked at a ton of different places, but at the places & teams I have worked with, I've never had anyone object to this policy.
  - ryandrake 4mo ago
    In the USA at least, I've found that this kind of "not working means not available" arrangement is easier or harder based on your seniority and the kind of company you work for. I am able to hold the line on this now, 25 years into my career, but it took a long time to get to this point, and I never would have been able to swing it when I was a junior programmer, and when I was working in a hyper-work-obsessed startup. Back in the early 2000s when I was Junior Engineer Number 32204, and not particularly valuable to my medium sized company in a competitive industry, I could never have gotten away with "Oh, by the way, boss, I am totally unreachable nights and weekends, and don't bring work with me on vacation." But, now, quite a bit more senior in my career and working in a "comfortable" big tech role, it's possible.
    - lokar 4mo ago
      This was mostly my experience. Once I was very Sr and reporting to the VP my solution was people could get in touch via the VP, his admin or my admin. Worked well (there were some things I really did need to be called for). But not a general solution. But with a good manager can work more broadly. And I did see a couple managers do something similar for their teams, making it clear that if you need emergency attention contact the oncall, if for some reason that won’t do call the manager. This friction alone deals with most issues.
SoftTalker 4mo ago
I've lived and worked in America my entire life, and in my approximately 40 years of working I've never had a job where I was expected or had to arrange to be available during a vacation. For the odd unplanned personal day maybe I'd try to check email and have my phone with me. But vacation, never.
- jayd16 4mo ago
  It doesn't need to be arranged. Like you said, we would check email ourselves of our own volition.
jayd16 4mo ago
> if you get sick on vacation, you get your vacation days back, This slightly blew my American mind but it makes sense. What about getting sick on calendar holidays?
- zvr 4mo ago
  No, you don't get the holidays back -- nor do you get weekends, if you're sick. On the other hand, I've been in a company where there were long discussions about whether the extra day on leap years is a working day or a vacation day...

by nicbou 4mo ago

fender256 4mo ago

Thanks for the reminder that this shouldn't be taken for granted. I am a German and sometimes this privilege feels so normal that it's unthinkable that it could be different elsewhere in the world.

nicbou 4mo ago
I help immigrants integrate for a living. Germany can be a frustrating country, but this is one of its best redeeming qualities. I'd also add that the culture allows and encourages sick days. The average is 15 sick days per year IIRC.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- patates 4mo ago
  Totally off-topic, but I read your profile to learn about this: https://allaboutberlin.com https://allaboutberlin.com - you do awesome work, thank you! Now I wonder if I could help the immigrants in my area (I'm in Hesse/Hessen), thanks for the inspiration too.
- teruakohatu 4mo ago
  The average number of sick days used is 15 or the number of days offered? In New Zealand we get a minimum of 10 sick working days per year but some companies offer more and allow unused sick leave to accumulate.
  - tumdum_ 4mo ago
    Sick days are not “offered” by employers. Sick days are prescribed by the doctors and there is no upper limit. After all, your sickness will not disappear just because it has been N days. That's at last how it is in Poland.
    - Autious 4mo ago
      Sweden has 14 sick days no questions asked before you need a doctors note. The German way of having to call your doctor for a flu note is a little odd to me. You do loose the first day's pay (the meme is that too many people were off sick when there was a world cup finals or something), and then 80% pay.
      - lionkor 4mo ago
        This is not accurate. In Germany, you usually only have to get a doctor's note at 2 or 3 days, if youre only sick for a day or two you don't need one. And there's an unlimited number of sick days. As long as you have a doctor's note, you still get paid, up to some ridiculous limit at which you might have to get government support instead.
        fabian2k 4mo ago
        It's up to the employer, they can ask for a doctor's note from day 1. Many employers have more lenient rules, though.
        inigyou 4mo ago
        I think at some limit the health insurance pays back the employer, right?
      - jorvi 4mo ago
        > You do loose the first day's pay Many countries have this system and the usual effect is that the duration people are sick for is magically never less than 2 days. It's dumb policy.

naturalmovement 4mo ago

It can honestly be annoying, if you're not privvy to it. I remember years ago needing urgent support for some bespoke European hardware we were developing software for. When we called support, we were greeted with a phone message stating the company was closed for the entire month due to vacation. This was not a one-man operation; the whole office closed for a summer holiday. We thought it was a joke. Needless to say we started to look for a new vendor shortly thereafter...

breakingcups 4mo ago
I mean, that's not usual at all in Europe either.
my-next-account 4mo ago
I'm surprised, typically we don't all take vacation at the same time, but stagger it.
- calessian 4mo ago
  It's not entirely uncommon, even companies like Volkswagen have 3 weeks of summer vacation. Strictly speaking, some people still work there for maintenance, etc. that can't be done while making cars, but the majority is on vacation. I know a handful of companies with a week of mandatory Christmas vacation as well (but there's typically not too many working days between Christmas and New Years' either way).
  - Symbiote 4mo ago
    In England, I had summer jobs in factories when I was a teenager, since they needed extra hands to help with cleaning / maintenance during the annual shutdown. I don't know if this work would have been offered to staff who turned it down, or if they preferred to have their staff on holiday at the same time.
- prmoustache 4mo ago
  It really depends on the areas. On white collar jobs yes. It is more frequent in blue collars workers because it is easier to close completely or partially (several lines) in a factory than having to manage different vacations schedules. Constructions companies also do stop because you usually need most workers available + hot weather makes it harder anyway. Small/familiar companies also do it frequently because it doesn't make sense to work if you have dependencies on a number or unavailable persons.

blauditore 4mo ago

> if you are on vacation, you are simply not available. You are dead to the world until you return. Emails do not get read, and devices get left at the office. It's funny because that's kind of the definition of a vacation in my book. I find it weird that some places in the world handle it differently. Note that it's also much better for the company in the long run: It's a test of resilience and redundany, the famous bus factor. It simulates what happens if someone is not available, and forces the organization around to have a backup plan. Having those is important for cases where employees leave the company or team (switching jobs/teams, accidents, sickness, parental leave, death, burnout, layoffs etc.). It's mind-boggling how many leads at various levels just don't understand that.

alibarber 4mo ago
I remember vaguely from interning at a bank that there you were actually obliged to be totally isolated from the company for a continuous period of time by policy. The thinking was that if you were cooking the books of doing some dodgy dealing on the side it would come to light without you there to actively 'manage' it.

BadBadJellyBean 4mo ago

Not to forget that you get a minimum of four weeks of vacation per year with 30 days being offered most of the time. This year I used my vacation time well and I already had 3 weeks off while I still have almost 4 weeks left.

Cthulhu_ 4mo ago

This is how it should be though - nobody should be irreplaceable. Look up bus factor etc.

gacgacgac 4mo ago

I'm a senior at a big tech company. You can do this in America too. Just communicate with your manager and set the boundary. "By the way, when I'm on vacation I'm away from devices, so let's coordinate beforehand if there's anything critical path."

coldpie 4mo ago
100%, and it extends beyond vacations, too. Unless you have a formal on-call arrangement, then any time you spend doing work stuff outside of your work hours is time you are choosing to donate to your company. It's fine if you want to do that, but you don't have to. I work 8-4 every day. I am not contactable outside that window and definitely not contactable on my days off. I haven't worked at a ton of different places, but at the places & teams I have worked with, I've never had anyone object to this policy.
- ryandrake 4mo ago
  In the USA at least, I've found that this kind of "not working means not available" arrangement is easier or harder based on your seniority and the kind of company you work for. I am able to hold the line on this now, 25 years into my career, but it took a long time to get to this point, and I never would have been able to swing it when I was a junior programmer, and when I was working in a hyper-work-obsessed startup. Back in the early 2000s when I was Junior Engineer Number 32204, and not particularly valuable to my medium sized company in a competitive industry, I could never have gotten away with "Oh, by the way, boss, I am totally unreachable nights and weekends, and don't bring work with me on vacation." But, now, quite a bit more senior in my career and working in a "comfortable" big tech role, it's possible.
  - lokar 4mo ago
    This was mostly my experience. Once I was very Sr and reporting to the VP my solution was people could get in touch via the VP, his admin or my admin. Worked well (there were some things I really did need to be called for). But not a general solution. But with a good manager can work more broadly. And I did see a couple managers do something similar for their teams, making it clear that if you need emergency attention contact the oncall, if for some reason that won’t do call the manager. This friction alone deals with most issues.

SoftTalker 4mo ago

I've lived and worked in America my entire life, and in my approximately 40 years of working I've never had a job where I was expected or had to arrange to be available during a vacation. For the odd unplanned personal day maybe I'd try to check email and have my phone with me. But vacation, never.

jayd16 4mo ago
It doesn't need to be arranged. Like you said, we would check email ourselves of our own volition.

jayd16 4mo ago

> if you get sick on vacation, you get your vacation days back, This slightly blew my American mind but it makes sense. What about getting sick on calendar holidays?

zvr 4mo ago
No, you don't get the holidays back -- nor do you get weekends, if you're sick. On the other hand, I've been in a company where there were long discussions about whether the extra day on leap years is a working day or a vacation day...