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That’s not an excuse. Kidnapping is a police problem. Not a genocide problem.

by gmerc 4mo ago

seanmcdirmid 4mo ago
See, it’s statements like this that make me want to run away like heck from this. Netanyahu is a hack, a war monger, all sorts of bad, but Palestinians continued support for Hamas and seeing large scale cross border kidnapping/murder as a “police issue”, it’s hard for me to feel sympathy. So I bought an EV and that’s the end of it.
- gmerc 4mo ago
  The Epstein Class solution to turmoil of the soul - give Elon money instead
  - seanmcdirmid 4mo ago
    Elon isn’t the only person selling EVs. I’m glad I’ve never given him money. We should just wash our hands of the Middle East though, maybe if the western world stops caring, all of the parties will come together and figure out a way forward that doesn’t involve killing each other.
    - Sabinus 4mo ago
      Without Western support Iran and the proxies will choke Israel until either they make concessions to the Palestinians (which can be a very good thing, depending on the concessions demanded), or Israel gets backed into a corner and either really does a genocide, or drops a (hopefully only tactical) nuke. The most likely best future is when Western support is predicated on making decent concessions to the Palestinians. I'm not in the position to say what they are at the moment but more autonomy for the Palestinian state proposed in Oslo would be a good start.
- basisword 4mo ago
  >> Palestinians continued support for Hamas Have you ever stopped to think _why_ they might continue to support Hamas? The Israeli government (and many citizens) continue to take their land. Force them out of their homes. Treat them worse than animals. They can kill 70k people and face almost zero consequences internationally. They've got the backing of a superpower. If you were treated like that I'm sure you would plead for calm, peace, and love. If people are treated inhumanly on mass scale they will revolt because they feel like they have no other option.
  - bulbar 4mo ago
    > The Israeli government (and many citizens) continue to take their land. Force them out of their homes. People in the Westbank seem to mostly support Fatah, not Hamas. I do generally agree though that the strength of Hamas was fueled by the dire situation of the population in Gaza and Israel's actions (before Oct 2023). That must not mean that one should stand by the side of mass murderers. You can be against Israel's actions and for the Palestine people and still condemn Hamas' actions, and every sane person should. They came into power and murdered their own people to consolidate their power. They are a terror organization. It's disturbing to me that many (not meaning you in particular) fail to understand that.
    - basisword 4mo ago
      >> That must not mean that one should stand by the side of mass murderers The problem is that this is so ambiguous it took me a minute to work out who you meant. The mass murderers you're referring to have murdered many fewer people than the other side. They have done some heinous things but they're only a 'terror organisation' because their crimes aren't sanctioned by a state. A state which has also reportedly done many heinous things. My point being, if Israel were not so supported by the West I think we would look at both sides of this conflict with disgust.
      - bulbar 4mo ago
        That's possible, but isn't a counter argument to my point - not sure if it was intended as one though. For the people in the southern levante to live in peace, Hamas must be overcome as well as Netanjahu and his clique.
- seanclayton 4mo ago
  > it’s hard for me to feel sympathy. That is a you problem, but the first step to improvement is acknowledgement, so kudos. An improved ability for sympathy is encouraged.
bulbar 4mo ago
Hamas' mass murdering isn't a "police problem" whatever that's meant to mean and they are quite explicit in their goal of genocide of the Jewish population in the southern levante.
- TitaRusell 4mo ago
  Hamas is not the same as Palestinians. But I understand that Israeli soldiers need justification to shoot at children and raise houses- just as Germans needed justification for their genocide.
  - bulbar 4mo ago
    Hamas has been the government in Gaza for the last years, so I'm not sure what you want to say by stating the mass murdering by Hamas is a police problem.
    - dzhiurgis 4mo ago
      18 years IIRC. Entire generation has been raised with one and single mission - destroy Israel. Yes Hamas isn't Palestine, same way Trump isn't America. But it's pretty damn close.
      - bulbar 4mo ago
        Stating that most Palestinian support the Hamas and their actions is a very big accusation, but your have not provided much evidence for that. I have read some poll results from years ago and don't have deeper knowledge of the topic, just saying one would be to provide real evidence. And that's only talking about Gaza. Since you said "Palestine" it should be mentioned that Hamas had not been able to dominate in the Westbank so far, so I don't think what you wrote is accurate.
  - seanmcdirmid 4mo ago
    Hamas knows that and is willing to give Israeli army those excuses freely, they freely admitted that the whole point of the kidnappings and murders was to provoke Israeli into genocide, which in turn would provide world wide sympathy for their cause. Hamas will fight to the last Palestinian, which is sad. Don’t get me wrong, Israel is not the good guy here, and Hamas is just taking advantage of their short fuse. Both sides are insane, which is why I think it’s better for us to just sit it out, the only thing we can do is make it worse.
krembo 4mo ago
Saying Israel is doing genocide is pure bs from uneducated people

That’s not an excuse. Kidnapping is a police problem. Not a genocide problem.

by gmerc 4mo ago

That’s not an excuse. Kidnapping is a police problem. Not a genocide problem.

See, it’s statements like this that make me want to run away like heck from this. Netanyahu is a hack, a war monger, all sorts of bad, but Palestinians continued support for Hamas and seeing large scale cross border kidnapping/murder as a “police issue”, it’s hard for me to feel sympathy. So I bought an EV and that’s the end of it.

gmerc 4mo ago
The Epstein Class solution to turmoil of the soul - give Elon money instead
- seanmcdirmid 4mo ago
  Elon isn’t the only person selling EVs. I’m glad I’ve never given him money. We should just wash our hands of the Middle East though, maybe if the western world stops caring, all of the parties will come together and figure out a way forward that doesn’t involve killing each other.
  - Sabinus 4mo ago
    Without Western support Iran and the proxies will choke Israel until either they make concessions to the Palestinians (which can be a very good thing, depending on the concessions demanded), or Israel gets backed into a corner and either really does a genocide, or drops a (hopefully only tactical) nuke. The most likely best future is when Western support is predicated on making decent concessions to the Palestinians. I'm not in the position to say what they are at the moment but more autonomy for the Palestinian state proposed in Oslo would be a good start.
basisword 4mo ago
>> Palestinians continued support for Hamas Have you ever stopped to think _why_ they might continue to support Hamas? The Israeli government (and many citizens) continue to take their land. Force them out of their homes. Treat them worse than animals. They can kill 70k people and face almost zero consequences internationally. They've got the backing of a superpower. If you were treated like that I'm sure you would plead for calm, peace, and love. If people are treated inhumanly on mass scale they will revolt because they feel like they have no other option.
- bulbar 4mo ago
  > The Israeli government (and many citizens) continue to take their land. Force them out of their homes. People in the Westbank seem to mostly support Fatah, not Hamas. I do generally agree though that the strength of Hamas was fueled by the dire situation of the population in Gaza and Israel's actions (before Oct 2023). That must not mean that one should stand by the side of mass murderers. You can be against Israel's actions and for the Palestine people and still condemn Hamas' actions, and every sane person should. They came into power and murdered their own people to consolidate their power. They are a terror organization. It's disturbing to me that many (not meaning you in particular) fail to understand that.
  - basisword 4mo ago
    >> That must not mean that one should stand by the side of mass murderers The problem is that this is so ambiguous it took me a minute to work out who you meant. The mass murderers you're referring to have murdered many fewer people than the other side. They have done some heinous things but they're only a 'terror organisation' because their crimes aren't sanctioned by a state. A state which has also reportedly done many heinous things. My point being, if Israel were not so supported by the West I think we would look at both sides of this conflict with disgust.
    - bulbar 4mo ago
      That's possible, but isn't a counter argument to my point - not sure if it was intended as one though. For the people in the southern levante to live in peace, Hamas must be overcome as well as Netanjahu and his clique.
seanclayton 4mo ago
> it’s hard for me to feel sympathy. That is a you problem, but the first step to improvement is acknowledgement, so kudos. An improved ability for sympathy is encouraged.

bulbar 4mo ago

Hamas' mass murdering isn't a "police problem" whatever that's meant to mean and they are quite explicit in their goal of genocide of the Jewish population in the southern levante.

TitaRusell 4mo ago
Hamas is not the same as Palestinians. But I understand that Israeli soldiers need justification to shoot at children and raise houses- just as Germans needed justification for their genocide.
- bulbar 4mo ago
  Hamas has been the government in Gaza for the last years, so I'm not sure what you want to say by stating the mass murdering by Hamas is a police problem.
  - dzhiurgis 4mo ago
    18 years IIRC. Entire generation has been raised with one and single mission - destroy Israel. Yes Hamas isn't Palestine, same way Trump isn't America. But it's pretty damn close.
    - bulbar 4mo ago
      Stating that most Palestinian support the Hamas and their actions is a very big accusation, but your have not provided much evidence for that. I have read some poll results from years ago and don't have deeper knowledge of the topic, just saying one would be to provide real evidence. And that's only talking about Gaza. Since you said "Palestine" it should be mentioned that Hamas had not been able to dominate in the Westbank so far, so I don't think what you wrote is accurate.
- seanmcdirmid 4mo ago
  Hamas knows that and is willing to give Israeli army those excuses freely, they freely admitted that the whole point of the kidnappings and murders was to provoke Israeli into genocide, which in turn would provide world wide sympathy for their cause. Hamas will fight to the last Palestinian, which is sad. Don’t get me wrong, Israel is not the good guy here, and Hamas is just taking advantage of their short fuse. Both sides are insane, which is why I think it’s better for us to just sit it out, the only thing we can do is make it worse.

krembo 4mo ago

Saying Israel is doing genocide is pure bs from uneducated people