6 ms·

There's simply no excuse for what Israel has been doing and everyone with a functioning moral compass should be denouncing it. Debating about Hamas is a distrac

There's simply no excuse for what Israel has been doing and everyone with a functioning moral compass should be denouncing it. Debating about Hamas is a distraction. They have a right to defend their country, but not treating a whole population as collateral damage.

BLKNSLVR 4mo ago
I agree with your first sentence. The rest is the messy middle around which negotiation is required for any form of minimal co-existence.
- stanleykm 4mo ago
  Israel has a right to defend itself, but Palestine does not?
  - philipallstar 4mo ago
    [flagged]
    - mcmcmc 4mo ago
      > It's like if people in Wales were constantly firing rockets at London because they wanted to destroy all English people, and England doing nothing about it for years until there was a huge slaughter, and then finally retaliating. Or just like the IRA… asymmetric warfare/terrorism is a natural response to violent oppression
      - Sabinus 4mo ago
        Discarded proportionalty calculations is in response to asymmetric warfare/terrorism which is in response to violent oppression is in response to ethnic conflict, which is in response to migration which is in response to persecution. Everyone has factors influencing their decisions but everyone still has their own agency and responsibility.
      - fsckboy 4mo ago
        >asymmetric warfare/terrorism is a natural response to violent oppression it always sounds more high-minded to adopt universal/philosophical wording, but it's highly effective, your point is well made. October 7th was violent oppression, your explanation is sound.
      - philipallstar 4mo ago
        > Or just like the IRA… asymmetric warfare/terrorism is a natural response to violent oppression In neither case was oppression happening. The IRA wanted a separate Ireland, and would kill other Irish people and English people to get it. You'd be far more oppressed (read: killed) if you were a Jew in Palestine, or a gay man in Palestine, or any number of other things in Palestine. Israel was the place where you could be those things. The controls were in place to stop the people coming in that would bring Palestinian "morality" into Israel.
    - seanclayton 4mo ago
      That is one perspective. Would you accept that there are other, equally valid, perspectives which challenge the one you repeated?
    - deleted 4mo ago
      [deleted]
    - propagandist 4mo ago
      Counterpoint: https://youtube.com/shorts/3jdONbR7rcI https://youtube.com/shorts/3jdONbR7rcI If you want to know how we got where we are, look up Tantura.
    - philistine 4mo ago
      People are appropriately scouring your position because there was exactly what you are imagining: a population, living West of the rest of the UK, lobbing terrorist attacks at London. It's just that it was the Irish, not the Welsh, doing the attacks. History has given reason to the IRA's despicable methods; once the British got tired of the unionists' intransigeance, they sat down at the negotiation table and hammered a real deal to really end the violence. The Palestinians engaged in violent warfare against the Israelis studiously study the IRA and the results they got. So your example is actually an example that proves that the Palestinians' methods could lead to success for them. You'll have to try again.
      - Sabinus 4mo ago
        If the IRA's demands were that the British had to accept enough Irish migration to become a minority in their country (the right of return) somehow I don't think their despicable methods would have paid off. The difference between the Irish and the Palestinians is the Irish took a real compromise and peace deal. They didn't demand the instant return of Northern Ireland and refuse all compromise to that issue, committing multiple generations to fruitless violence and high death rates.
        Sabinus 4mo ago
        Edit/clarification: I forgot about British multiculturalism. You would have to imagine Britain had similar 'national and ethnic trauma' to Israel for first IRA example to really work.
        philistine 4mo ago
        The IRA's goal was to unite Northern Ireland with the rest of Ireland. That goal, while not as hard to attain as the right of return, was still unacceptable to the UK. The IRA achieved some of its goals, and clearly decided to bide their time in peace. The Palestinians could hope for the same sort of partial victory, with a negotiated peace with the Israelis.
        4mo ago
    - za3faran 4mo ago
      Who said their aim is to "wipe jews off the face of the earth"? Always claims without citations. The reality is quite different however[1] [1] https://x.com/incontextmedia/status/1720877046664986750 https://x.com/incontextmedia/status/1720877046664986750
      - philipallstar 4mo ago
        The reality is definitely not different[0]. [0] https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calls_for_the_destruction_of_Israel https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calls_for_the_destruction_...
        za3faran 4mo ago
        You still did not provide a source, and in fact, showed the opposite: > the elimination of Israel as a modern country Which is very different than the victim playing by the settlers. I gave you a primary source, not straw man arguments.
        philipallstar 4mo ago
        A straw man is where I mischaracterise your position. I don't know why you're saying that when I definitely didn't do that.
        za3faran 4mo ago
        The straw man is that their aim is to "wipe jews off the face of the earth".
seanmcdirmid 4mo ago
Wait, you mean there is “no excuse for what Israel is doing” and “Hamas kidnapping and murdering Israelis” was just a distraction? This is why we should just move on to EVs and stop getting involved at all in the Middle East. I see no morally right way of engaging with either side. Both positions seem to end in “let one side genocide the other side.”
- gmerc 4mo ago
  That’s not an excuse. Kidnapping is a police problem. Not a genocide problem.
  - seanmcdirmid 4mo ago
    See, it’s statements like this that make me want to run away like heck from this. Netanyahu is a hack, a war monger, all sorts of bad, but Palestinians continued support for Hamas and seeing large scale cross border kidnapping/murder as a “police issue”, it’s hard for me to feel sympathy. So I bought an EV and that’s the end of it.
    - gmerc 4mo ago
      The Epstein Class solution to turmoil of the soul - give Elon money instead
      - seanmcdirmid 4mo ago
        Elon isn’t the only person selling EVs. I’m glad I’ve never given him money. We should just wash our hands of the Middle East though, maybe if the western world stops caring, all of the parties will come together and figure out a way forward that doesn’t involve killing each other.
        Sabinus 4mo ago
        Without Western support Iran and the proxies will choke Israel until either they make concessions to the Palestinians (which can be a very good thing, depending on the concessions demanded), or Israel gets backed into a corner and either really does a genocide, or drops a (hopefully only tactical) nuke. The most likely best future is when Western support is predicated on making decent concessions to the Palestinians. I'm not in the position to say what they are at the moment but more autonomy for the Palestinian state proposed in Oslo would be a good start.
expedition32 4mo ago
The argument that all Palestinans deserve to be genocided because of the actions of a terrorist organisation is so asinine that people should be ashamed of themselves. It is the same reasoning Americans used for their war against the Apaches.
TheBigSalad 4mo ago
[flagged]
krembo 4mo ago
It's easy to be very "moral" from far far away, yet I doubt you'd act differently if you were in Israel's shoes
- yodsanklai 4mo ago
  There are many Israelis who conclude that their country is conducting a genocide in gaza and ask for it to stop [1]. Conversely, there are people who are "far far away", who have access to the same information as everybody else and don't see any wrong doing, and support the destruction of Gaza and its inhabitants. I have a hard time understanding how anyone can think this is right, or maybe they don't know or don't believe what is actually taking place. [1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/07/israel-opt-israeli-organizations-conclude-israel-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza-in-another-milestone-for-accountability-efforts/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/07/israel-opt-is...
  - krembo 4mo ago
    What happens in Gaza is first and foremost Hamas to blame, thus I hold zero empathy for the Gaza people, and second, nonetheless important, does not withstand any definition of the term "genocide". If Israel wanted to commit a genocide they would finish the job within a week, the fact that there are so many surgical operations and methods like "knock on the roof" shows Israel are doing their best efforts to avoid civilian casualties. Moreover, as the Palestinians are separated between Judea and Samaria and the Gaza strip, while the first are quiet and living in prosperity while the later are hostages of Hamas, it is a very weird way from Israel's point of view to make what you call genocide.
    - za3faran 4mo ago
      israel has been documented countless times directly targeting civilians, including reporters, sniping women, children, sexual assault, the list goes on. It's a quick search away to see a very, very long list of war crimes. https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/ https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/
    - 4mo ago

BLKNSLVR 4mo ago

I agree with your first sentence. The rest is the messy middle around which negotiation is required for any form of minimal co-existence.

stanleykm 4mo ago
Israel has a right to defend itself, but Palestine does not?
- philipallstar 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - mcmcmc 4mo ago
    > It's like if people in Wales were constantly firing rockets at London because they wanted to destroy all English people, and England doing nothing about it for years until there was a huge slaughter, and then finally retaliating. Or just like the IRA… asymmetric warfare/terrorism is a natural response to violent oppression
    - Sabinus 4mo ago
      Discarded proportionalty calculations is in response to asymmetric warfare/terrorism which is in response to violent oppression is in response to ethnic conflict, which is in response to migration which is in response to persecution. Everyone has factors influencing their decisions but everyone still has their own agency and responsibility.
    - fsckboy 4mo ago
      >asymmetric warfare/terrorism is a natural response to violent oppression it always sounds more high-minded to adopt universal/philosophical wording, but it's highly effective, your point is well made. October 7th was violent oppression, your explanation is sound.
    - philipallstar 4mo ago
      > Or just like the IRA… asymmetric warfare/terrorism is a natural response to violent oppression In neither case was oppression happening. The IRA wanted a separate Ireland, and would kill other Irish people and English people to get it. You'd be far more oppressed (read: killed) if you were a Jew in Palestine, or a gay man in Palestine, or any number of other things in Palestine. Israel was the place where you could be those things. The controls were in place to stop the people coming in that would bring Palestinian "morality" into Israel.
  - seanclayton 4mo ago
    That is one perspective. Would you accept that there are other, equally valid, perspectives which challenge the one you repeated?
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
  - propagandist 4mo ago
    Counterpoint: https://youtube.com/shorts/3jdONbR7rcI https://youtube.com/shorts/3jdONbR7rcI If you want to know how we got where we are, look up Tantura.
  - philistine 4mo ago
    People are appropriately scouring your position because there was exactly what you are imagining: a population, living West of the rest of the UK, lobbing terrorist attacks at London. It's just that it was the Irish, not the Welsh, doing the attacks. History has given reason to the IRA's despicable methods; once the British got tired of the unionists' intransigeance, they sat down at the negotiation table and hammered a real deal to really end the violence. The Palestinians engaged in violent warfare against the Israelis studiously study the IRA and the results they got. So your example is actually an example that proves that the Palestinians' methods could lead to success for them. You'll have to try again.
    - Sabinus 4mo ago
      If the IRA's demands were that the British had to accept enough Irish migration to become a minority in their country (the right of return) somehow I don't think their despicable methods would have paid off. The difference between the Irish and the Palestinians is the Irish took a real compromise and peace deal. They didn't demand the instant return of Northern Ireland and refuse all compromise to that issue, committing multiple generations to fruitless violence and high death rates.
      - Sabinus 4mo ago
        Edit/clarification: I forgot about British multiculturalism. You would have to imagine Britain had similar 'national and ethnic trauma' to Israel for first IRA example to really work.
        philistine 4mo ago
        The IRA's goal was to unite Northern Ireland with the rest of Ireland. That goal, while not as hard to attain as the right of return, was still unacceptable to the UK. The IRA achieved some of its goals, and clearly decided to bide their time in peace. The Palestinians could hope for the same sort of partial victory, with a negotiated peace with the Israelis.
        4mo ago
  - za3faran 4mo ago
    Who said their aim is to "wipe jews off the face of the earth"? Always claims without citations. The reality is quite different however[1] [1] https://x.com/incontextmedia/status/1720877046664986750 https://x.com/incontextmedia/status/1720877046664986750
    - philipallstar 4mo ago
      The reality is definitely not different[0]. [0] https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calls_for_the_destruction_of_Israel https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calls_for_the_destruction_...
      - za3faran 4mo ago
        You still did not provide a source, and in fact, showed the opposite: > the elimination of Israel as a modern country Which is very different than the victim playing by the settlers. I gave you a primary source, not straw man arguments.
        philipallstar 4mo ago
        A straw man is where I mischaracterise your position. I don't know why you're saying that when I definitely didn't do that.
        za3faran 4mo ago
        The straw man is that their aim is to "wipe jews off the face of the earth".

seanmcdirmid 4mo ago

Wait, you mean there is “no excuse for what Israel is doing” and “Hamas kidnapping and murdering Israelis” was just a distraction? This is why we should just move on to EVs and stop getting involved at all in the Middle East. I see no morally right way of engaging with either side. Both positions seem to end in “let one side genocide the other side.”

gmerc 4mo ago
That’s not an excuse. Kidnapping is a police problem. Not a genocide problem.
- seanmcdirmid 4mo ago
  See, it’s statements like this that make me want to run away like heck from this. Netanyahu is a hack, a war monger, all sorts of bad, but Palestinians continued support for Hamas and seeing large scale cross border kidnapping/murder as a “police issue”, it’s hard for me to feel sympathy. So I bought an EV and that’s the end of it.
  - gmerc 4mo ago
    The Epstein Class solution to turmoil of the soul - give Elon money instead
    - seanmcdirmid 4mo ago
      Elon isn’t the only person selling EVs. I’m glad I’ve never given him money. We should just wash our hands of the Middle East though, maybe if the western world stops caring, all of the parties will come together and figure out a way forward that doesn’t involve killing each other.
      - Sabinus 4mo ago
        Without Western support Iran and the proxies will choke Israel until either they make concessions to the Palestinians (which can be a very good thing, depending on the concessions demanded), or Israel gets backed into a corner and either really does a genocide, or drops a (hopefully only tactical) nuke. The most likely best future is when Western support is predicated on making decent concessions to the Palestinians. I'm not in the position to say what they are at the moment but more autonomy for the Palestinian state proposed in Oslo would be a good start.

expedition32 4mo ago

The argument that all Palestinans deserve to be genocided because of the actions of a terrorist organisation is so asinine that people should be ashamed of themselves. It is the same reasoning Americans used for their war against the Apaches.

TheBigSalad 4mo ago

[flagged]

krembo 4mo ago

It's easy to be very "moral" from far far away, yet I doubt you'd act differently if you were in Israel's shoes

yodsanklai 4mo ago
There are many Israelis who conclude that their country is conducting a genocide in gaza and ask for it to stop [1]. Conversely, there are people who are "far far away", who have access to the same information as everybody else and don't see any wrong doing, and support the destruction of Gaza and its inhabitants. I have a hard time understanding how anyone can think this is right, or maybe they don't know or don't believe what is actually taking place. [1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/07/israel-opt-israeli-organizations-conclude-israel-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza-in-another-milestone-for-accountability-efforts/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/07/israel-opt-is...
- krembo 4mo ago
  What happens in Gaza is first and foremost Hamas to blame, thus I hold zero empathy for the Gaza people, and second, nonetheless important, does not withstand any definition of the term "genocide". If Israel wanted to commit a genocide they would finish the job within a week, the fact that there are so many surgical operations and methods like "knock on the roof" shows Israel are doing their best efforts to avoid civilian casualties. Moreover, as the Palestinians are separated between Judea and Samaria and the Gaza strip, while the first are quiet and living in prosperity while the later are hostages of Hamas, it is a very weird way from Israel's point of view to make what you call genocide.
  - za3faran 4mo ago
    israel has been documented countless times directly targeting civilians, including reporters, sniping women, children, sexual assault, the list goes on. It's a quick search away to see a very, very long list of war crimes. https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/ https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/
  - 4mo ago