4 ms·

It's possible to work for an employer, and not have to compromise your values and or professional integrity. The attitude suggested by your response suggests y

It's possible to work for an employer, and not have to compromise your values and or professional integrity. The attitude suggested by your response suggests you haven't lived that reality yet. Either way, I'd rather be rejected by an employer for speaking my truth, than lie to be somewhere I'd rather not be.

lazide 4mo ago
Cite needed - FAANG certainly leaned hard into ‘lie to survive’.
pesus 4mo ago
This a very condescending and privileged comment. The job market is much different when you're just starting out, and it's especially brutal these days for new grads.
- d_silin 4mo ago
  It is not. I made that choice in the past and will do it again. "Speak the truth, even if your voice shakes"
  - KittenInABox 4mo ago
    I think it depends. The people that I know that have made significant sacrifices to live along their morals are usually people who 1) are intensely bitter when others will not sacrifice as much as them; 2) are completely understanding of people who will not sacrifice as much as them or acknowledge that they simply have less to sacrifice than others. For example someone who is willing to live the "dirtbag" lifestyle out of their car to dedicate to their outdoorsman activity who is either bitter others have the relative financial security or feel immensely grateful they have consistently good enough health that allows them to be outdoors with so little resources. For example I think the decision to stick to certain morals is very hard if someone has a disabled dependent, are disabled themselves, or require consistent access to healthcare. There are different lines for different people of course. Our ire shouldn't go towards individuals who make these decisions but the people in power who force others to be in a position where these decisions need to be made.
    - d_silin 4mo ago
      In the end, everyone makes their own choices. I don't want to preach martyrdom, but I am also offended by people choosing moral bankruptcy when faced with even the slightest hardships.
  - tisdadd 4mo ago
    I believe that I must be truthful because of my faith, though I understand people feeling pressure otherwise. I have had to quit places that I found lying to part of the employees before. It is very sad to me that people do feel that pressure, and how the current job market is. On topic with the article, I would love to be able to trust AI with more, but have found that I have some useful moments with it, but more because of Internet search not being how it used to be for quality.
  - monkpit 4mo ago
    You should really examine your situation and beliefs if you think this isn’t a privileged position to be in.
    - hypfer 4mo ago
      Hacker news is full of people having given up, building torment nexii and coping/rationalizing _incredibly_ hard. So while I agree that privilege is certainly a factor, so is what I've just said. A lot of people here live very cushy lives that cushion them from very pointy thoughts and questions. As someone who too has to live in this world, I'd rather they didn't.
    - therealdrag0 4mo ago
      Even “unprivileged” people are moral actors that can take their high road at personal cost.
      - bluefirebrand 4mo ago
        When I was starting out in my career it was "take the first job offer that comes along or starve/become homeless" so no, sometimes the personal cost would be unreasonably high to expect of anyone This effectively does mean that I was not a moral actor at the time
        therealdrag0 4mo ago
        Naw that’s cope. You make your choices, own them. Would you have stolen or murdered to avoid being homeless? Would that have been a morally blameless act?
        GlacierFox 4mo ago
        Christ - that's a strawman if I ever did see one haha.
        inigyou 4mo ago
        Most people will steal to avoid being homeless.
  - plandis 4mo ago
    You’ve actively made the choice to go hungry instead of hedging your answers during an interview? I certainly feigned enthusiasm when I was in high school to get an after school job in order to help my family buy food.
    - d_silin 4mo ago
      Yes.
      - plandis 4mo ago
        I honestly find that quite hard to believe. Lack of adequate calories and nutrition negatively compound. You lose the ability to focus, you increase your medical risk. I experienced that in my childhood. It’s terrible. I did very poorly academically when I did not have access to food. It’s astonishing to me how fast my academic performance improved after consistently having access to food. Saying you would rather put yourself at risk instead of hedge your answer on a minor interview question in order to increase your chances of getting a job offer seems like an issue with prioritization.
        d_silin 4mo ago
        Correct. I did it anyway (and yes, it was awful).
        maxbond 4mo ago
        That's fucked up. If those are your values, that's all well and good, but you can't expect someone else to make the same decision. Job interviews are a performance where you demonstrate you understand what professional expectations are and can abide by them. It's not dishonesty to not respond "I drink too much" when they ask "what's your biggest weakness?" just like it's not dishonesty to respond "can't complain" when someone asks "how are you today," even if you have a lot to complain about. Once I interviewed someone and they described their tax fraud scheme to me. We didn't go with that candidate. Not per se because they committed tax fraud; because they demonstrated terrible judgment.
  - dspillett 4mo ago
    >* I made that choice in the past* You were replying to “The job market is much different when you're just starting out”. The past is not now, and you are not just starting out, so your comparison of their position and yours is invalid IMO. > and will do it again. Good for you for sticking to your guns, I'm about to do the same with a company that has all but said “dig into AI or get left behind”¹, but those starting out as freshly minted grads likely do not have the luxuries that we might have² and the jobs market is freakishly competitive for them right now³ in a way that I don't think it ever has been before. -------- [1] time will tell if I leave of my own volition before getting kicked! [2] experience (both actual experience and experience “talking the talk”) to help getting the next gig, a mortgage paid off so making ends meet is easier, etc. [3] It had been heading that way for a while, the recent explosion of GenAI+agnetics has made it worse.
  - knollimar 4mo ago
    What if the way you use AI isn't particularly important to you? Are you willing to sacrifice employment for a principle you wouldn't draw as a line in the sand? Sometimes it's okay to say "I don't know" and it's okay to say "I don't care" and it's okay to say "It doesn't matter much to me". Every interview is corpospeak where you infer the intended meaning of words anyway.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- satisfice 4mo ago
  Maybe it’s condescending, but it’s valid. I have made sacrifices throughout my career to maintain maximum integrity, and the least I can do is be proud of it, since I don’t have riches or possessions to be proud of. Yeah I rage quit my job 27 years ago and have been a struggling honest consultant ever since. Clients who want actual solutions to their problems come to me. Does that sound arrogant? Well I also have no savings and don’t own a house. I don’t regret most of my choices, but I am aware that if somebody paid me enough money I would walk away from my principles. It would have to be a LOT of money.
- pipes 4mo ago
  The "you don't know what it's like for me" argument swings both ways.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
ipaddr 4mo ago
This isn't a value item for most people. Employer doesn't want ai used great handcoding or employer wants ai used great prompt coding. My truth is I don't care either way . I get the sense that's the same for parent poster. They just want a job and to say the right thing to get past the hiring filter. Even if I did have a truth its not something I would put above being remote, pay and how a company develops software. I'd rather not have a truth and not have a daily standup.
ccppurcell 4mo ago
The job market being as it is, a lot of people simply don't have that luxury.
ninjalanternshk 4mo ago
It’s also possible to not really hold that strong an opinion on things. Not everything is a pitched battle where doing what your employer wants means you’ve sacrificed your integrity.
doctorpangloss 4mo ago
From far away, it's hard to tell the difference between integrity and anti sociality. Even though I believe "software engineering integrity" exists, you can see how it's hard to tell that apart from "software engineers who stir dramas or are annoying to work with."
emodendroket 4mo ago
Everyone can decide where the line is for them, but I do feel like given the subject that's a bit of a hyperbolic repsonse.

lazide 4mo ago

Cite needed - FAANG certainly leaned hard into ‘lie to survive’.

pesus 4mo ago

This a very condescending and privileged comment. The job market is much different when you're just starting out, and it's especially brutal these days for new grads.

d_silin 4mo ago
It is not. I made that choice in the past and will do it again. "Speak the truth, even if your voice shakes"
- KittenInABox 4mo ago
  I think it depends. The people that I know that have made significant sacrifices to live along their morals are usually people who 1) are intensely bitter when others will not sacrifice as much as them; 2) are completely understanding of people who will not sacrifice as much as them or acknowledge that they simply have less to sacrifice than others. For example someone who is willing to live the "dirtbag" lifestyle out of their car to dedicate to their outdoorsman activity who is either bitter others have the relative financial security or feel immensely grateful they have consistently good enough health that allows them to be outdoors with so little resources. For example I think the decision to stick to certain morals is very hard if someone has a disabled dependent, are disabled themselves, or require consistent access to healthcare. There are different lines for different people of course. Our ire shouldn't go towards individuals who make these decisions but the people in power who force others to be in a position where these decisions need to be made.
  - d_silin 4mo ago
    In the end, everyone makes their own choices. I don't want to preach martyrdom, but I am also offended by people choosing moral bankruptcy when faced with even the slightest hardships.
- tisdadd 4mo ago
  I believe that I must be truthful because of my faith, though I understand people feeling pressure otherwise. I have had to quit places that I found lying to part of the employees before. It is very sad to me that people do feel that pressure, and how the current job market is. On topic with the article, I would love to be able to trust AI with more, but have found that I have some useful moments with it, but more because of Internet search not being how it used to be for quality.
- monkpit 4mo ago
  You should really examine your situation and beliefs if you think this isn’t a privileged position to be in.
  - hypfer 4mo ago
    Hacker news is full of people having given up, building torment nexii and coping/rationalizing _incredibly_ hard. So while I agree that privilege is certainly a factor, so is what I've just said. A lot of people here live very cushy lives that cushion them from very pointy thoughts and questions. As someone who too has to live in this world, I'd rather they didn't.
  - therealdrag0 4mo ago
    Even “unprivileged” people are moral actors that can take their high road at personal cost.
    - bluefirebrand 4mo ago
      When I was starting out in my career it was "take the first job offer that comes along or starve/become homeless" so no, sometimes the personal cost would be unreasonably high to expect of anyone This effectively does mean that I was not a moral actor at the time
      - therealdrag0 4mo ago
        Naw that’s cope. You make your choices, own them. Would you have stolen or murdered to avoid being homeless? Would that have been a morally blameless act?
        GlacierFox 4mo ago
        Christ - that's a strawman if I ever did see one haha.
        inigyou 4mo ago
        Most people will steal to avoid being homeless.
- plandis 4mo ago
  You’ve actively made the choice to go hungry instead of hedging your answers during an interview? I certainly feigned enthusiasm when I was in high school to get an after school job in order to help my family buy food.
  - d_silin 4mo ago
    Yes.
    - plandis 4mo ago
      I honestly find that quite hard to believe. Lack of adequate calories and nutrition negatively compound. You lose the ability to focus, you increase your medical risk. I experienced that in my childhood. It’s terrible. I did very poorly academically when I did not have access to food. It’s astonishing to me how fast my academic performance improved after consistently having access to food. Saying you would rather put yourself at risk instead of hedge your answer on a minor interview question in order to increase your chances of getting a job offer seems like an issue with prioritization.
      - d_silin 4mo ago
        Correct. I did it anyway (and yes, it was awful).
        maxbond 4mo ago
        That's fucked up. If those are your values, that's all well and good, but you can't expect someone else to make the same decision. Job interviews are a performance where you demonstrate you understand what professional expectations are and can abide by them. It's not dishonesty to not respond "I drink too much" when they ask "what's your biggest weakness?" just like it's not dishonesty to respond "can't complain" when someone asks "how are you today," even if you have a lot to complain about. Once I interviewed someone and they described their tax fraud scheme to me. We didn't go with that candidate. Not per se because they committed tax fraud; because they demonstrated terrible judgment.
- dspillett 4mo ago
  >* I made that choice in the past* You were replying to “The job market is much different when you're just starting out”. The past is not now, and you are not just starting out, so your comparison of their position and yours is invalid IMO. > and will do it again. Good for you for sticking to your guns, I'm about to do the same with a company that has all but said “dig into AI or get left behind”¹, but those starting out as freshly minted grads likely do not have the luxuries that we might have² and the jobs market is freakishly competitive for them right now³ in a way that I don't think it ever has been before. -------- [1] time will tell if I leave of my own volition before getting kicked! [2] experience (both actual experience and experience “talking the talk”) to help getting the next gig, a mortgage paid off so making ends meet is easier, etc. [3] It had been heading that way for a while, the recent explosion of GenAI+agnetics has made it worse.
- knollimar 4mo ago
  What if the way you use AI isn't particularly important to you? Are you willing to sacrifice employment for a principle you wouldn't draw as a line in the sand? Sometimes it's okay to say "I don't know" and it's okay to say "I don't care" and it's okay to say "It doesn't matter much to me". Every interview is corpospeak where you infer the intended meaning of words anyway.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
satisfice 4mo ago
Maybe it’s condescending, but it’s valid. I have made sacrifices throughout my career to maintain maximum integrity, and the least I can do is be proud of it, since I don’t have riches or possessions to be proud of. Yeah I rage quit my job 27 years ago and have been a struggling honest consultant ever since. Clients who want actual solutions to their problems come to me. Does that sound arrogant? Well I also have no savings and don’t own a house. I don’t regret most of my choices, but I am aware that if somebody paid me enough money I would walk away from my principles. It would have to be a LOT of money.
pipes 4mo ago
The "you don't know what it's like for me" argument swings both ways.

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

ipaddr 4mo ago

This isn't a value item for most people. Employer doesn't want ai used great handcoding or employer wants ai used great prompt coding. My truth is I don't care either way . I get the sense that's the same for parent poster. They just want a job and to say the right thing to get past the hiring filter. Even if I did have a truth its not something I would put above being remote, pay and how a company develops software. I'd rather not have a truth and not have a daily standup.

ccppurcell 4mo ago

The job market being as it is, a lot of people simply don't have that luxury.

ninjalanternshk 4mo ago

It’s also possible to not really hold that strong an opinion on things. Not everything is a pitched battle where doing what your employer wants means you’ve sacrificed your integrity.

doctorpangloss 4mo ago

From far away, it's hard to tell the difference between integrity and anti sociality. Even though I believe "software engineering integrity" exists, you can see how it's hard to tell that apart from "software engineers who stir dramas or are annoying to work with."

emodendroket 4mo ago

Everyone can decide where the line is for them, but I do feel like given the subject that's a bit of a hyperbolic repsonse.