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IDF conscripts astroturf on social media all day, and a lot of people do the same for free on behalf of the concept of Israel Don’t worry about the deflections

IDF conscripts astroturf on social media all day, and a lot of people do the same for free on behalf of the concept of Israel Don’t worry about the deflections and karma flagging censorship as consensus, because its not Jewish and Jewish Israeli people are raised to be afraid of the entire world, and think losing a perception game will result in their eradication perpetuated by everyone around them. This is due to a 1,000 year history of exactly that, so I can empathize, but not at the expense of fiction. I don’t want anyone to hurt them. I want the corrosive traits in their culture to be checked and go away. Put all those PhD’s that some people are so proud of into other pursuits.

bulbar 4mo ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- yieldcrv 4mo ago
  > Independent of who is in the right there, they are losing the media war. Honestly, I like that nobody's getting fired anymore. I like that consensus has shifted on consensus-driven forums until the IDF conscripts wake up. Generations of that and nobody's opinion actually changed, people independently perceived the same things and speaking was merely suppressed by private sector and communities. Partially by our own governments too. Now the behavior of Israeli administrations and some settlers is all so indefensible that people can sort their thoughts out about things together, publicly. Even the astroturfing is disingenuous, people are saying the exact same points that Jewish Israeli protesters are saying towards their own government in Israel. But the fear of non-Jewish people flipping on them is even greater, so when we say the same things its paraded around as something that it isn't. Just get US out of it.
- sosomoxie 4mo ago
  > Israel had to fight multiple wars to avoid extinction Israel should never have been created in the first place. Generally when people invade other's land and start ethnically cleansing it, they will come under attack from people practicing self-defense. In other words, 100% of hostility created from Israel is self-inflicted.
- amitport 4mo ago
  "parents and grandparents," You don't have to go into historical events. This is still happening now. Jews are still fighting for their survival and the moment Israel stops fighting, millions of Jews will die.
  - bulbar 4mo ago
    That's true in a general sense, not true in every specific sense. Before the mass murdering on Oct 2023, Israel didn't fight in the sense of an open conflict/war for a time. It tried to normalize relationships with Arabic countries, but didn't really work on solving the conflict with Gaza. It became more and more obvious they are trying to replace the population in the West Bank, further devalidating political/peaceful approaches by Fatah, fueling Hamas' approach of terror and murder. Fighting for survival foremost mean to architect a sustainable solution for Gaza and westbank.
    - amitport 4mo ago
      Let’s look at the actual historical record, because the pattern is undeniable: the root cause of this conflict is the absolute refusal of the regional and local leadership to ever accept a sovereign Jewish state within any borders. In 1937 and 1947, the Jewish community accepted partition, but the local leaders rejected it and chose war. Following the Six-Day War in 1967, the Arab League shut down any path to compromise by issuing its 'Three No's': no peace, no recognition, and no negotiations. Decades later, Israel engaged in direct talks at Madrid in 1991 and made massive concessions under the 1993 Oslo Accords to establish the Palestinian Authority, only for the process to be dismantled by waves of suicide bombings. At Camp David in 2000 and the Taba Summit in 2001, Israel offered an independent state encompassing Gaza and over 90% of the West Bank, but their leadership walked away to launch the Second Intifada. When the Arab League proposed a plan in 2002, they conditioned it on non-negotiable terms regarding refugees and borders that compromised Israeli security, while Palestinian factions rejected the deal entirely regardless. In 2003, Israel accepted the international Roadmap for Peace, but the process stalled permanently because the local government failed to fulfill its basic obligation to dismantle terrorist infrastructure. In 2005, in a one-sided prayer for peace, Israel completely dismantled every single settlement in Gaza, dragged out its own citizens by force, withdrew every soldier, and handed the entire territory over to Palestinian custody. In 2008, Israel proposed its most sweeping offer yet, including near-total territorial withdrawal and international administration of holy sites, which Mahmoud Abbas flatly refused to sign without any counteroffer. You cannot blame Israel for a lack of effort when it has repeatedly offered statehood and land for peace. While the West labels Hamas as an extremist group, the reality on the ground is that they are viewed by a vast number of Palestinians as a mainstream governance structure and a legitimate movement of armed resistance against occupation. The true obstacle to peace remains this foundational objective, which Hamas champions and the local political culture reinforces, to establish an Islamic state over the entirety of the land and eliminate Israel entirely. If at any point there is a Palestinian majority and a leadership that genuinely seeks peace, it will happen in a second, despite whatever imperfections Israel may have.
throw310822 4mo ago
> Jewish and Jewish Israeli people are raised to be afraid of the entire world [...] This is due to a 1,000 year history of exactly that Actually it goes way further. It seems that a large part of Jewish religion and culture is centered on the idea of being persecuted. A quick list goes from the Egyptian slavery, to the attack by the Amalekites, to the Babylonian destruction of the First Temple, to Haman's plot to exterminate Jews in Persia... and we're still at the book of Esther, 5th century BCE. The list goes on and on. Each of these is commemorated in a religious or civil ceremony: Passover, Purim, Hanukkah, etc. This is to say, Judaism is built around grievance. And grievance in turn, if kept unchecked, is dangerous because it can justify unethical behaviours that are seen as reparatory.

bulbar 4mo ago

[flagged]

deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
yieldcrv 4mo ago
> Independent of who is in the right there, they are losing the media war. Honestly, I like that nobody's getting fired anymore. I like that consensus has shifted on consensus-driven forums until the IDF conscripts wake up. Generations of that and nobody's opinion actually changed, people independently perceived the same things and speaking was merely suppressed by private sector and communities. Partially by our own governments too. Now the behavior of Israeli administrations and some settlers is all so indefensible that people can sort their thoughts out about things together, publicly. Even the astroturfing is disingenuous, people are saying the exact same points that Jewish Israeli protesters are saying towards their own government in Israel. But the fear of non-Jewish people flipping on them is even greater, so when we say the same things its paraded around as something that it isn't. Just get US out of it.
sosomoxie 4mo ago
> Israel had to fight multiple wars to avoid extinction Israel should never have been created in the first place. Generally when people invade other's land and start ethnically cleansing it, they will come under attack from people practicing self-defense. In other words, 100% of hostility created from Israel is self-inflicted.
amitport 4mo ago
"parents and grandparents," You don't have to go into historical events. This is still happening now. Jews are still fighting for their survival and the moment Israel stops fighting, millions of Jews will die.
- bulbar 4mo ago
  That's true in a general sense, not true in every specific sense. Before the mass murdering on Oct 2023, Israel didn't fight in the sense of an open conflict/war for a time. It tried to normalize relationships with Arabic countries, but didn't really work on solving the conflict with Gaza. It became more and more obvious they are trying to replace the population in the West Bank, further devalidating political/peaceful approaches by Fatah, fueling Hamas' approach of terror and murder. Fighting for survival foremost mean to architect a sustainable solution for Gaza and westbank.
  - amitport 4mo ago
    Let’s look at the actual historical record, because the pattern is undeniable: the root cause of this conflict is the absolute refusal of the regional and local leadership to ever accept a sovereign Jewish state within any borders. In 1937 and 1947, the Jewish community accepted partition, but the local leaders rejected it and chose war. Following the Six-Day War in 1967, the Arab League shut down any path to compromise by issuing its 'Three No's': no peace, no recognition, and no negotiations. Decades later, Israel engaged in direct talks at Madrid in 1991 and made massive concessions under the 1993 Oslo Accords to establish the Palestinian Authority, only for the process to be dismantled by waves of suicide bombings. At Camp David in 2000 and the Taba Summit in 2001, Israel offered an independent state encompassing Gaza and over 90% of the West Bank, but their leadership walked away to launch the Second Intifada. When the Arab League proposed a plan in 2002, they conditioned it on non-negotiable terms regarding refugees and borders that compromised Israeli security, while Palestinian factions rejected the deal entirely regardless. In 2003, Israel accepted the international Roadmap for Peace, but the process stalled permanently because the local government failed to fulfill its basic obligation to dismantle terrorist infrastructure. In 2005, in a one-sided prayer for peace, Israel completely dismantled every single settlement in Gaza, dragged out its own citizens by force, withdrew every soldier, and handed the entire territory over to Palestinian custody. In 2008, Israel proposed its most sweeping offer yet, including near-total territorial withdrawal and international administration of holy sites, which Mahmoud Abbas flatly refused to sign without any counteroffer. You cannot blame Israel for a lack of effort when it has repeatedly offered statehood and land for peace. While the West labels Hamas as an extremist group, the reality on the ground is that they are viewed by a vast number of Palestinians as a mainstream governance structure and a legitimate movement of armed resistance against occupation. The true obstacle to peace remains this foundational objective, which Hamas champions and the local political culture reinforces, to establish an Islamic state over the entirety of the land and eliminate Israel entirely. If at any point there is a Palestinian majority and a leadership that genuinely seeks peace, it will happen in a second, despite whatever imperfections Israel may have.

throw310822 4mo ago

> Jewish and Jewish Israeli people are raised to be afraid of the entire world [...] This is due to a 1,000 year history of exactly that Actually it goes way further. It seems that a large part of Jewish religion and culture is centered on the idea of being persecuted. A quick list goes from the Egyptian slavery, to the attack by the Amalekites, to the Babylonian destruction of the First Temple, to Haman's plot to exterminate Jews in Persia... and we're still at the book of Esther, 5th century BCE. The list goes on and on. Each of these is commemorated in a religious or civil ceremony: Passover, Purim, Hanukkah, etc. This is to say, Judaism is built around grievance. And grievance in turn, if kept unchecked, is dangerous because it can justify unethical behaviours that are seen as reparatory.