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The leaders could, for example, have made AI opt-in. If it's popular, maybe make it the default for new installs later on. Instead we had to go a few versions f

The leaders could, for example, have made AI opt-in. If it's popular, maybe make it the default for new installs later on. Instead we had to go a few versions from "now with AI" to "now with an AI off button" because they got enough negative user feedback. I don't mind experiments, but if you're the "we put you back in control" browser then please build an "off" switch in from the start.

tokioyoyo 4mo ago
AI is not, and was not the reason why the average user moved away from Firefox. AI is however a potential avenue for raising money.
- red_admiral 4mo ago
  Oh, I agree - firefox was losing market share long before AI was a thing. I meant to use that as a recent example of the kind of decisions that Mozilla leadership repeatedly makes, that don't match up what their users want.
  - Melatonic 4mo ago
    How do you know what their users want ? Firefox may not have a massive market share but it's a much larger group than just the vocal ones here on HN
    - red_admiral 4mo ago
      I'm going mainly off the OP, but Mozilla connect is the place I'd look: https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?advanced=false&allow_punctuation=false&q=AI https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message...
- dspillett 4mo ago
  > AI is however a potential avenue for raising money. How? By selling the position of preferred model? They can do that without implementing it in a way that means people who don't want it at all have to jump through hoops to opt-out. Being able to turn AI summaries and such off by default was the final reason I started paying for Kagi. I know they use ML in the background no matter what, but as long as I get links to resources relevant to my search, that I can read/judge/summerise as needed, first and foremost, how they produce that list is not the issue.
  - tokioyoyo 4mo ago
    You are not the target audience, that’s pretty much it. You can be very against AI, try to turn it off on Kagi, avoid Google AI summaries, discard ChatGPT/Claude, but billions of people still use them. At this point it has been argued so much that it’s kinda pointless. People seem to enjoy to be told stuff and don’t really care about sources if the said content is somewhat correct.
    - Melatonic 4mo ago
      You don't really need to turn it off in Kagi - it only gives you an AI answer if you put a " ? " after your query.
matsemann 4mo ago
Again: Would it have made a measurable difference? Or is it just moaning from a small core? Not saying the core is not important, but I don't think Fx can survive on only us.
- chii 4mo ago
  > don't think Fx can survive on only us. not at the current employee and costs. But do they need to do that? Do they need to produce new products (and pay the cost to do so)? Why can't they be lean and mean? Focus purely on browser experience without any BS, without any upsell? And there are volunteers out there that willingly contribute code/fixes for free.
  - Forgeties79 4mo ago
    I like having containers for different parts of my life built into the browser. I liked relay for quite a while (moved on to other setups). I like syncing between devices and the ability to push something from my phone to my computer on another continent currently with two taps. Yeah they have rolled out a lot of nonsense I don’t care for, but they have also rolled out a lot of features I regularly use and enjoy. You can’t please everybody, but ultimately I’m glad it’s not “just a lean browser.”
  - charcircuit 4mo ago
    If they truly wanted to be mean and lean and focus on the browser experience they would need to throw away their pride and port the browser from gecko to blink. I think they are too prideful to do that though.
  - altairprime 4mo ago
    > Why can't they be lean and mean? Because they canceled the* project and laid off the lean and mean team that threatened their bloated C++ tower of rubble. * https://servo.org/ https://servo.org/

tokioyoyo 4mo ago

AI is not, and was not the reason why the average user moved away from Firefox. AI is however a potential avenue for raising money.

red_admiral 4mo ago
Oh, I agree - firefox was losing market share long before AI was a thing. I meant to use that as a recent example of the kind of decisions that Mozilla leadership repeatedly makes, that don't match up what their users want.
- Melatonic 4mo ago
  How do you know what their users want ? Firefox may not have a massive market share but it's a much larger group than just the vocal ones here on HN
  - red_admiral 4mo ago
    I'm going mainly off the OP, but Mozilla connect is the place I'd look: https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?advanced=false&allow_punctuation=false&q=AI https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message...
dspillett 4mo ago
> AI is however a potential avenue for raising money. How? By selling the position of preferred model? They can do that without implementing it in a way that means people who don't want it at all have to jump through hoops to opt-out. Being able to turn AI summaries and such off by default was the final reason I started paying for Kagi. I know they use ML in the background no matter what, but as long as I get links to resources relevant to my search, that I can read/judge/summerise as needed, first and foremost, how they produce that list is not the issue.
- tokioyoyo 4mo ago
  You are not the target audience, that’s pretty much it. You can be very against AI, try to turn it off on Kagi, avoid Google AI summaries, discard ChatGPT/Claude, but billions of people still use them. At this point it has been argued so much that it’s kinda pointless. People seem to enjoy to be told stuff and don’t really care about sources if the said content is somewhat correct.
  - Melatonic 4mo ago
    You don't really need to turn it off in Kagi - it only gives you an AI answer if you put a " ? " after your query.

matsemann 4mo ago

Again: Would it have made a measurable difference? Or is it just moaning from a small core? Not saying the core is not important, but I don't think Fx can survive on only us.

chii 4mo ago
> don't think Fx can survive on only us. not at the current employee and costs. But do they need to do that? Do they need to produce new products (and pay the cost to do so)? Why can't they be lean and mean? Focus purely on browser experience without any BS, without any upsell? And there are volunteers out there that willingly contribute code/fixes for free.
- Forgeties79 4mo ago
  I like having containers for different parts of my life built into the browser. I liked relay for quite a while (moved on to other setups). I like syncing between devices and the ability to push something from my phone to my computer on another continent currently with two taps. Yeah they have rolled out a lot of nonsense I don’t care for, but they have also rolled out a lot of features I regularly use and enjoy. You can’t please everybody, but ultimately I’m glad it’s not “just a lean browser.”
- charcircuit 4mo ago
  If they truly wanted to be mean and lean and focus on the browser experience they would need to throw away their pride and port the browser from gecko to blink. I think they are too prideful to do that though.
- altairprime 4mo ago
  > Why can't they be lean and mean? Because they canceled the* project and laid off the lean and mean team that threatened their bloated C++ tower of rubble. * https://servo.org/ https://servo.org/