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With Windows in particular, you absolutely can navigate Windows + Office keyboard only. I do it every day. Now, third party software, is always going to be all

With Windows in particular, you absolutely can navigate Windows + Office keyboard only. I do it every day. Now, third party software, is always going to be all over the place. Stuff that was largely built on Win32 components works fine, but "modern" stylized applications rarely have strong support.

varun_ch 4mo ago
You’re right that lots of Windows apps were designed with Keyboard only workflows in mind. It’s a shame that MacOS has so many points where if you don’t have a mouse you’re out of luck. There is one major improvement you can do on Mac, at least for menus: https://varun.ch/posts/macos-keyboard/ https://varun.ch/posts/macos-keyboard/
- comboy 4mo ago
  Obviously depends on your workflow but I think I use mouse only on websites on macos (with aerospace)
  - jonfw 4mo ago
    If you're interested in keyboard navigation of websites, consider a browser or extension with link hinting support! It worked really well in my experience a few years ago, although I've since became much more of a mouse guy and stopped using it. Qutebrowser was my favorite browser for keyboard navigation but firefox, chrome, etc. have extensions for this as well.
    - reddit_clone 4mo ago
      Vimium extension does that. Works well too. Works on Chrome and Firefox.
      - Galus 4mo ago
        try out surfingkeys if vimmium isnt ur cup of tea
        reddit_clone 4mo ago
        I am currently trying something called ShortCat, this is not just for the browser but works in other Mac applications too! Look Ma, No mouse !
    - Barbing 4mo ago
      Link hinting - love it
- mikestew 4mo ago
  Like the linked article says, every time I set up a new Mac, I’m annoyed that this isn’t the default.
  - philistine 4mo ago
    I get that this might annoy you, but there is a direct trace all the way back to the original Mac in 1984 that required a mouse. As time went on and the two other OSes we still have gained mouse support (Windows, Linux) from their keyboard roots, they brought forward their ethos of keyboard navigation. Mac OS resolutely stayed attached to its mouse only roots.
    - kid64 4mo ago
      “When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind, I don’t consider the bloody ROI.” Well Tim, I suppose the blind do outnumber the handless.
      - devinprater 4mo ago
        Can confirm.
    - layer8 4mo ago
      It was a significant downside of MacOS from the beginning, and it still is.
      - someguyiguess 4mo ago
        That seems incredibly subjective. For people with carpal tunnel like myself, having to do everything on the keyboard can be very painful. The mouse alleviates that and gives visual feedback.
        bigyabai 4mo ago
        That's a good reason to support the mouse as a backup peripheral, but not a good reason to gimp keyboards in your interface. Seeing as both can be accommodated, I would argue it's an objective limitation of macOS.
graemep 4mo ago
Most things in Linux too - all DEs I have tried have lots of keyboard shortcuts and so do a lot of applications. The problem is that they are less discoverable and you need to make and effort to get used to using them instead of point and click.
- CalRobert 4mo ago
  They used to be discoverable with mnemonics (underlined letters) but those have been dead nearly thirty years…
  - p-t 4mo ago
    these still exist on windows though? you just hold alt
    - MarsIronPI 4mo ago
      GTK (and QT I do believe) also support this on GNU/Linux.
    - foobarbecue 4mo ago
      Only works for like 20% of the menus though. I remember alt shortcuts reliably being on every single menu in early Windows (95? ME? XP?)
      - CalRobert 4mo ago
        Hah, I was thinking 3.1…
        foobarbecue 4mo ago
        Yeah I only used it a little bit so couldn't remember if it had the "hold alt to see shortcuts" thing
      - thewebguyd 4mo ago
        They died when people stopped using native toolkits and started making everything an electron app. Economics be damned, if you're going to make a native app, use the OS provided toolkits.
stronglikedan 4mo ago
I just wish the shortcuts between the OS and Office were consistent. Most are, but some of the more commonly used ones aren't.
varenc 4mo ago
On macOS with "Full Keyboard Control" you can navigate the system and most any official app from the keyboard. It's not an efficient experience though.
teo_zero 4mo ago
> you absolutely can navigate Windows + Office keyboard only Unfortunately in Excel many operations can be done only with the function keys (e.g. F2, Shift-F8). I'd argue that leaving the center of the keyboard to press the function keys is not easier or quicker than reaching for the mouse.

varun_ch 4mo ago

You’re right that lots of Windows apps were designed with Keyboard only workflows in mind. It’s a shame that MacOS has so many points where if you don’t have a mouse you’re out of luck. There is one major improvement you can do on Mac, at least for menus: https://varun.ch/posts/macos-keyboard/ https://varun.ch/posts/macos-keyboard/

comboy 4mo ago
Obviously depends on your workflow but I think I use mouse only on websites on macos (with aerospace)
- jonfw 4mo ago
  If you're interested in keyboard navigation of websites, consider a browser or extension with link hinting support! It worked really well in my experience a few years ago, although I've since became much more of a mouse guy and stopped using it. Qutebrowser was my favorite browser for keyboard navigation but firefox, chrome, etc. have extensions for this as well.
  - reddit_clone 4mo ago
    Vimium extension does that. Works well too. Works on Chrome and Firefox.
    - Galus 4mo ago
      try out surfingkeys if vimmium isnt ur cup of tea
      - reddit_clone 4mo ago
        I am currently trying something called ShortCat, this is not just for the browser but works in other Mac applications too! Look Ma, No mouse !
  - Barbing 4mo ago
    Link hinting - love it
mikestew 4mo ago
Like the linked article says, every time I set up a new Mac, I’m annoyed that this isn’t the default.
- philistine 4mo ago
  I get that this might annoy you, but there is a direct trace all the way back to the original Mac in 1984 that required a mouse. As time went on and the two other OSes we still have gained mouse support (Windows, Linux) from their keyboard roots, they brought forward their ethos of keyboard navigation. Mac OS resolutely stayed attached to its mouse only roots.
  - kid64 4mo ago
    “When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind, I don’t consider the bloody ROI.” Well Tim, I suppose the blind do outnumber the handless.
    - devinprater 4mo ago
      Can confirm.
  - layer8 4mo ago
    It was a significant downside of MacOS from the beginning, and it still is.
    - someguyiguess 4mo ago
      That seems incredibly subjective. For people with carpal tunnel like myself, having to do everything on the keyboard can be very painful. The mouse alleviates that and gives visual feedback.
      - bigyabai 4mo ago
        That's a good reason to support the mouse as a backup peripheral, but not a good reason to gimp keyboards in your interface. Seeing as both can be accommodated, I would argue it's an objective limitation of macOS.

graemep 4mo ago

Most things in Linux too - all DEs I have tried have lots of keyboard shortcuts and so do a lot of applications. The problem is that they are less discoverable and you need to make and effort to get used to using them instead of point and click.

CalRobert 4mo ago
They used to be discoverable with mnemonics (underlined letters) but those have been dead nearly thirty years…
- p-t 4mo ago
  these still exist on windows though? you just hold alt
  - MarsIronPI 4mo ago
    GTK (and QT I do believe) also support this on GNU/Linux.
  - foobarbecue 4mo ago
    Only works for like 20% of the menus though. I remember alt shortcuts reliably being on every single menu in early Windows (95? ME? XP?)
    - CalRobert 4mo ago
      Hah, I was thinking 3.1…
      - foobarbecue 4mo ago
        Yeah I only used it a little bit so couldn't remember if it had the "hold alt to see shortcuts" thing
    - thewebguyd 4mo ago
      They died when people stopped using native toolkits and started making everything an electron app. Economics be damned, if you're going to make a native app, use the OS provided toolkits.

stronglikedan 4mo ago

I just wish the shortcuts between the OS and Office were consistent. Most are, but some of the more commonly used ones aren't.

varenc 4mo ago

On macOS with "Full Keyboard Control" you can navigate the system and most any official app from the keyboard. It's not an efficient experience though.

teo_zero 4mo ago

> you absolutely can navigate Windows + Office keyboard only Unfortunately in Excel many operations can be done only with the function keys (e.g. F2, Shift-F8). I'd argue that leaving the center of the keyboard to press the function keys is not easier or quicker than reaching for the mouse.