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The likely 'real' reason is hidden in one paragraph within the article and has nothing to do with the implication of the eye-catching title: "Both Garcia and Ra
by somenameforme 5mo ago
The likely 'real' reason is hidden in one paragraph within the article and has nothing to do with the implication of the eye-catching title: "Both Garcia and Ranade have joined more than 1,300 UC faculty in signing a petition calling for the reinstatement of ACT and SAT standardized testing scores for STEM admissions in the UC system. The petition and its accompanying open letter detail similar concerns with students’ mathematical preparation."
Around COVID times many top universities experimented with removing test requirements from admissions, under an argument largely related to equity. It's been a failure everywhere, with many, if not most, universities already reversing it. As Yale put it, "Yale’s research from before and after the pandemic has consistently demonstrated that, among all application components, test scores are the single greatest predictor of a student’s future Yale grades. This is true even after controlling for family income and other demographic variables, and it is true for subject-based exams such as AP and IB, in addition to the ACT and SAT." [1]
That link is for an archive because that page has been removed. That's because they briefly experimented with a new 'test flexible' strategy where they allowed students to submit test scores or not, but then scrapped that altogether and went back to simply requiring test scores.
[1] - https://archive.is/8zxfo https://archive.is/8zxfo
- HanayamaTriplet 5mo agoIf the removal of standardized testing in 2021 was the real reason, then why is there a sudden spike of failure rates happening right now?
- userbinator 5mo agoIt takes time for students to work their way through the system.
- kingkawn 5mo agoWouldn’t this change be evidenced right away after the elimination of the test as criteria if the test was responsible
- sfink 5mo agoNot if kids are prepping for the test in a way that results in real gains. Which seems likely, especially in the age of AI: "should I actually study math or just use ChatGPT to pass this course?" One semester of coasting through might not do that much harm, but at some point the compounding effects will tip you over the edge.
- Schiendelman 5mo agoDefine "right away". How long after taking the SAT does a child have their first classes at university? At least a year?
- boringg 5mo agoNo probably needs a couple more years. Writing the test itself is motivation to do well in HS math. If that no longer becomes a driver probably takes off the drive in other courses over a couple years. I bet without the SAT as a standardized test a lot of HS math courses are easier for the teacher because the quality can lapse. Also some children who excel write their SATs sometimes 2-3 years before college and then re-write if need be.
- acbart 5mo agoIn the spring, but not the fall?
- lelanthran 5mo agoThere's always a lag between cause and effect in education. Works the other way too - if you introduce something positive in grade 1, you'll only see the results a few years later.
- HanayamaTriplet 5mo agoIf it's a lagging effect, then why is the year-over-year spike in failure rates happening not just in 1st/2nd year classes, but also in a 3rd/4th year class at the same time?
- lelanthran 5mo agoEntrance tests predict academic success , not 1st year success. "Failure to complete the qualification" is the prediction.
- sfink 5mo agoGood point. I'm inclined to think it's because of a quality threshold in chatbots.
- yobbo 5mo agoTesting was the annoying flood barrier. AI is the rainstorm that shows why it was necessary.
- trenchgun 5mo agoThis pattern reads heavily LLM in style, but also... that is spot on.
- matwood 5mo agoIt takes time to work through the system and it has been steadily getting worse. It was already discussed on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48309233 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48309233
- acaloiar 5mo agoI'm having a difficult time imagining how an admissions event in 2021 materializes in the spring semester of 2026 in a class largely taken by first-year students. Could you explain?
- matwood 5mo agoIt didn't just suddenly materialize. From the current article In addition to overreliance on AI, Garcia also pointed out that many students are underprepared mathematically, a concern echoed by campus associate teaching professor Gireeja Ranade. From the article discussed the other week: Over three years — from fall 2021 to fall 2023 — the letter said, at least 20% of Berkeley first-semester calculus students who took a diagnostic exam showed deficits. “Basic mathematical fluency is analogous to literacy; without it, success in university-level STEM becomes structurally unattainable for students,” faculty wrote. It's been steadily getting worse. The current article only looks at F's which conveniently hides if there has been a slope down. Additionally, kids entering HS in 2021/2022 would just now be hitting college.
- Forgeties79 5mo agoSAT/ACT math is incredibly simplistic and at worst maybe contributed by not filtering as many out. Math scores have been declining nation wide for decades now, that’s been a big issue for a while.
- acaloiar 5mo ago> It didn't just suddenly materialize. A sudden materialization is what's depicted by the data. > It's been steadily getting worse. I don't believe this is accurate. Failing grades are what the observation entails, and the data clearly depict an abrupt change; not a gradual one. In the section titled "Failing grades in 3 CS classes skyrocket in spring 2026 ", there's a clear jump in failing grades for all cited courses between 2025 and 2026. Failing grades for every course jump by multiples of the previous year.
- watchful_moose 5mo agoI'm guessing the kids who didn't do the standardized tests at/shortly after 2021 were already prepared for it. The kids who saw the removal of standardized testing 3 years out from going to college never bothered.
- amiga386 5mo agohttps://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissions-review-docs.pdf#page=50 https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio... Please see the graph "Growth of the Math 2 Population by Major (2019-2024)". UCSD's Math 2 class is remedial high-school level maths. It has grown from under 100 students in 2016-2020, to more and more people each year starting from 2021. UCSD tested the people who took this class, and 25% of them could not answer the question "Fill in the box: 7 + 2 = [_] + 6" (with only pencil and paper allowed, no calculators or other electronics)
- insane_dreamer 5mo agothis is a Berkeley CS class, not a remedial math class.
- amiga386 5mo agoI'm suggesting the problem is not limited to Berkeley. They both show the same underlying issue, there's a growing number of students attending university without the prerequisite maths skills they need to succeed. It seems they're now at the point where the sheer number of students that need improved maths skills overwhelms the staff, resulting in them failing.
- insane_dreamer 5mo agoI agree it's not limited to Cal. But my point was that while you might expect remedial math students to fail (they're in remedial math for a reason), you shouldn't be having 1/3 of students failing a CS class (except perhaps if it's full of humanities majors who were required to take it for some odd reason)
- sourcecodeplz 5mo agoAnother one with %21 fail: "Sarah had 9 pennies and 9 dimes. How many coins did she have in all?"
- gamblor956 5mo agoThe removal of standardized testing is not the reason for a sudden spike in failures this past year. The standardized testing changes resulted in a decrease in mathematical preparedness across the board, but outside of CS/EECS it's not very significant in other STEM majors since most students to other math-heavy majors self-select on the basis of being good in math (and took AP math classes in high school). The big change is that LLMs became widely available 3 years ago, and practicably usable within the last 2 years. FTA, all of the failing students had enrolled in the precursor math sections that allowed for AI use on homeworks and tests; none from the other sections.
- frollogaston 5mo agoBerkeley chancellor told students to vote for 2020 California Proposition 16, which would've repeated 1996 Proposition 209 that banned race-based admission in public universities. Prop 16 failed. Subsequently, Cal started ignoring SAT/ACT scores. I have to think this was their alternative way of taking fewer Asian students, who average highest on that. Soon after I got an email from the same chancellor praising the change for bringing more racial diversity. The email included before and after numbers where % Asian decreased and all others increased.
- thescriptkiddie 5mo agopeople thinking california universities are discriminating against asian students is really funny
- alberto-m 5mo ago(minor typo: repeated --> repealed. Sorry for the nitpicking but it confused me when I first read it)
- frollogaston 5mo agoNo that's valid to call out, thanks
- j-bos 5mo agoReminds me of this asian professor getting blocked for promotion, allegedly, on the basis of race, but in a roundabout way. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/professor-sues-texas-university-for-discrimination/ar-AA231vNP https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/professor-sues-texas-unive...
- Georgelemental 5mo agoYes, they falsely classified him as white in order to deny him the promotion (because discriminating against white people is 100% non-controversial in that environment)
- schnitzelstoat 5mo agoI'm not American so maybe I am missing some context. But how did admissions work without test scores?
- 36733883 5mo ago[flagged]
- torben-friis 5mo ago>We used a vibes based system based on how compelling a sob story you could concoct whilst staying on the good side of fraud. Besides lost meritocracy, that is accidentally filtering for ability and willingness to manipulate others emotionally. Which feels really scary.
- Forgeties79 5mo agoHonestly I don’t believe a thing they’re saying. Just look at the demographics of any Ivy League school and you’ll see it can’t be true
- throwawy33z 5mo agoMy kid applied to Brown and others and the prep company we hired ($150/hr) spent more time going through the "sob story" the parent talked about than any other requirement (kids scores are to be fair quite decent already).
- Forgeties79 5mo agoI’m not saying that it’s dumb money to go with a sob story college admission essay, I just don’t think they’re being truthful with their experience. It reads like someone lifted a comment from /r/conservative about what they think the admissions process is.
- watwut 5mo ago
- yodsanklai 5mo ago> top universities experimented with removing test requirements from admissions What could go wrong...
- user3939382 5mo agoMemorize trivia and formulas, regurgitate trivia and formulas. This summarizes my experience with our system of education. Yale saying test scores predict performance reads to me as, “students’ history of being able to regurgitate trivia and formulas in high school is the lead predictor of their ability to do so here.”
- kqr 5mo ago> removing test requirements from admissions, under an argument largely related to equity. It's been a failure everywhere [...] among all application components, test scores are the single greatest predictor of a student’s future Yale grades. It reads as though you tried to use the quote to support your conclusion that "it's been a failure", but the quote and the original rationale are optimising for different things. Something can be a success in improving equal opportunity while still leading to worse grades. Or to flip it around: we could say admission testing "has been a failure everywhere" because it biases admissions in favour of certain demographics. But that wouldn't really be a fair assessment because being free of demographic biases is not the purpose of admission testing!
- colechristensen 5mo agoBut do these universities not have math placement exams? Not for admissions but just before you register for your first semester classes, a 30 minute math test should be a straightforward preventative measure. I did a test like this, I assumed they were pretty universal.
- kenjackson 5mo agoThey do -- this is often how they've found that students needed additional math coursework before starting the standard curriculum.
- pessimizer 5mo ago> Around COVID times many top universities experimented with removing test requirements from admissions, under an argument largely related to equity. It's been a failure everywhere, with many, if not most, universities already reversing it. It's the universities that have failed. They've restricted admissions to a set of people who would learn no matter what the schools did, which is what makes them lazy. When confronted with a set of students who haven't been provided with an enormous amount of childhood reading material, and the time, encouragement and social acceptance to indulge in it (the most faithful test predictor is childhood pleasure reading, the next best is parental income), they fail horribly. The purpose of elite colleges for students is credentialism and networking, the purpose for the schools themselves is to force cultural conformity onto smart or extremely pressured students. They generally just tell you to go learn things by yourself. They have no particular insight into teaching, because they are supplied with students who don't need to be taught.
- LiteUser 5mo agoCan you cite a source for the claim about "most faithful test predictor"? I'm genuinely curious. I would think high school GPA would be more predictive.
- zdragnar 5mo agoHigh school grades are not evenly applied, and sometimes heavily inflated. Eliminating that variable is the whole point behind taking a standardized test.
- ttshaw1 5mo agoAlso interested
- peterfirefly 5mo agoI think IQ tests are even better.
- insane_dreamer 5mo agoSAT requirement was dropped in 2021. Not taking the SAT doesn't explain a jump from 10% F's in 2025 to 35% F's in 2026.