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I don't understand. What is 'unlimited' PTO? And if it's so unlimited, why can't you use any of it? I've only had jobs with very specifically defined PTO that h

• lbrito 5mo ago
  Its a way for US companies to avoid paying money. When employees get real PTO, companies have some legal and tax obligations. With fake "unlimited" PTO, they just pretend the person is working as usual.
• pixl97 5mo ago
  Its a trick used to avoid financial liability. https://www.businessinsider.com/unlimited-pto-vacation-scam-time-off-managers-fight-burnout-culture-2023-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/unlimited-pto-vacation-scam-...
• AlexB138 5mo ago
  Most companies use the term "discretionary PTO". That means that there is no set limit on PTO. The positive take on it is that this means employees can take time off within reason so long as they're getting their work done. The negative take is that it means you have no guaranteed days you can take, and cultural or managerial pressure will prevent you from taking even a normal amount of vacation. It also means that employees don't accrue PTO days, and therefore don't have to be paid out for that time when they're fired.
  • compiler-guy 5mo ago
    The shift from the tem "Unlimited PTO" to "Discretionary PTO" has happened because early proponents realized it wasn't really unlimited, and they didn't want workers to think that way. But the "unlimited" term is still used to sell it, and still often appears in informal recruiting conversations. It's just so slimy.
    • AlexB138 5mo ago
      Yeah, the current reality of it isn't great at a lot of companies. I've been places where it was done well though. For instance, having a mandatory minimum number of days of vacation helps combat pressure to not take time off, and leaders who openly encourage people to take their time helps combat a culture of not taking time. It started as a positive thing, intending to trust the employees and give flexibility. Unfortunately, like a lot of things, sleazy leaders turn flexibility into manipulation.
    • ryandrake 5mo ago
      Reminds me of "Unlimited data" plans from ISPs, which are actually limited, but they just don't want to tell you about them. Anytime something is marketed as unlimited, it's not.
      • musicale 5mo ago
        "Well it's not a deceptive trade practice because no rational person would take such a hyperbolic or outlandish claim literally - much like 'best ISP in the UNIVERSE!' or advertisements suggesting that beer will make you fit and attractive."
  • tavavex 5mo ago
    Does this unlimited PTO still have to adhere to any legally required minimum PTO limits? If not, what prevents them from just not giving their employees any time off ever and bypassing the peer pressure part entirely?
    • compiler-guy 5mo ago
      It does not. Nothing.
      • yladiz 5mo ago
        Maybe in the US, but in countries with minimum holiday time you get the minimum in your contract (or a bit more) and the employee handbook says you have unlimited. Companies can’t shirk their responsibility here legally by saying they give unlimited vacation.
        • compiler-guy 5mo ago
          "Contracted minimum with more at manager's discretion" isn't what people usually mean when they talk about unlimited pto.
          • yladiz 5mo ago
            Sure, my point is that the way it works in the US does not work in many other places.
            • compiler-guy 5mo ago
              Right. Places without unlimited PTO get neither the upsides nor the downsides of unlimited PTO.
    • jandrewrogers 5mo ago
      PTO regulations are created by the individual States. None require PTO to exist. They do regulate accrual of PTO if it exists, sometimes with unintended consequences for employees. The origin story is that "discretionary PTO" was created to enable people to take longer vacations than was feasible within the regulatory constraints of accrual-based PTO. It can be abused in other ways but the intent of the people that invented it were employee-friendly.
• deleted 5mo ago
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• compiler-guy 5mo ago
  "Unlimited PTO" is a fiction created by accountants that sounds good on paper. When you need or want time off, you work it out with your manager. No debate about how many days you have left this year, or how many you have accumulated. It's undefined and technically you are supposed to work together and away you go. Accountants like it because guaranteed time-off is a liability that appears on the company's books as a debt, especially in California where the company is required to pay it out when you leave (whether fired or voluntary). But what happens in practice is no one feels like they are entitled to the time they should be entitled to, and negotiations from the employee side always come from a place of weakness. It's a terrible system. Undoubtedly someone will respond to this post with just how amazing their manager is and that they have never had a problem. But you know when I have never had a problem taking time off, even a long time off? When I could point to the corporate policy that says I have X days, and I was taking those days. And now I'm not playing manager roulette on whether or not I have the time, or how kind they are feeling. Or how buddy-buddy we are. It's one of those things that are great in theory, and terrible in real life.
  • rectang 5mo ago
    From the perspective that a company is an amoral profit-seeking automaton, it's not a "terrible system", it's a successful initiative to reduce compensation.
  • georgeecollins 5mo ago
    Exactly- sounds great but in practice often not great. Depends on the culture. I once worked for a small but ultimately very successful start up, as a married guy with kids. Unlimited PTO sounded great. Until I planned my second week long vacation in a year and got a lot of side eyes. Two weeks per year of vacation was less then what I got when PTO was "limited". In practice under unlimited PTO you could take a week off but more than that resulted in a PIP for something else.
  • DanielHB 5mo ago
    Is it really a financial liability part really pushing companies for these policies? I never heard this argument before and compared to salaries PTO is minuscule liability... Seems much more likely companies just trying to squeeze employees into taking less PTO.
• Aurornis 5mo ago
  Normal PTO is earned in increments of hours per pay period. Each person has an accrued PTO balance that they draw down from when they go on vacation. From the accounting perspective, the company is not paying them for work during this time, they are paying the employee out of their earned PTO balance. This creates some complications for the company where the accumulated PTO can be a liability on the books. It's a number that represents something they have to pay out with no labor in return. Depending on laws and circumstances they may also have to pay out the PTO balance when someone departs the company. Some companies skip all of this by switching to untracked PTO, which is often sold as unlimited PTO. Employees don't accumulate a PTO balance and when they go on vacation they get paid normally, not out of a separate bucket. No extra liabilities on the book. The trick is that PTO is now up to your manager's approval and judgment. At good companies you can actually take advantage of this for a more relaxed and flexible PTO schedule if you get your work done. I have done it and it's great when the company is good. At bad companies, it becomes a trick where your manager always says "I don't know, now isn't really a good time to take that much time off" and then everyone gets less vacation time than they had before. I have also experienced this and it's very depressing.
  • aksss 5mo ago
    How would you characterize the functional differences between the good and the bad companies that allowed for a great implementation of unlimited PTO? For instance, is it more overlap in job responsibility, less silo’d single points of failure? Better project management? I mean, it seems to me it’s never “a good time” since most of us could work 24/7 if just based on demand.
• nsxwolf 5mo ago
  If you tell me I have "Unlimited" PTO, I'm taking 5 weeks, because that's what I've had at every regular PTO job in the last 20 years.
• willis936 5mo ago
  It's unlimited in that you can request time off at any time with no balance or speed limit. The first order justification is that it saves some money from having to pay out unused time off balances at the end of the year / tenure or have people burst time off at random synchronous periods. However the second order effect is that the "how much time off is too much time off" is never defined and is a moving target. "If I take four weeks this year and things get tight next year will I show up on a filtered list for layoffs?" It's uncomfortable for employees but employers tout how comfortable it is.
  • sitkack 5mo ago
    No written rules is fascism.
• jasondigitized 5mo ago
  Unlimited is 3 weeks. If you go over, people will start questioning your commitment to the company.
• davkan 5mo ago
  I have unlimited PTO, called DTO (discretionary time off). The only downsides in my case are that since it’s not accrued hours you are not owed it on termination and we are limited to two consecutive weeks. Otherwise I have never once been denied DTO, even when I’ve had bad overlaps with my coworkers. I would guess I take somewhere around 6 weeks off per year plus holidays. A few vacations and then odd days and long weekends here and there. I’m not really sure though, I don’t think about it, I just take off when I want. It’s absolutely wonderful. I’ve heard horror stories about unlimited equating to zero. But I’ve also heard plenty of horror stories about PTO and unpaid time off getting denied as well. There is not much for employee protections in the states. Maybe the hate for DTO in well compensated circles like this comes from people who were already getting 6 weeks of PTO. I would imagine they’re not comparing DTO against the 4 weeks my sister has as a senior dev in a marketing firm with an extra day per year of service or the _3_ weeks my mother had at 65 working as a data analyst for a healthcare company. Or maybe my company is just a unicorn in a sea of companies abusing it with people not being able to get any time off at all. People are talking about how it’s always busy, there’s never enough time etc. That’s true almost everywhere. The work never stops. There’s always a project, always a critical bug, always a new initiative, always the next sprint. There’s more work than could ever be done with twice the employees. Good culture just mandates that you work around peoples absence and so is fine if people are out. Likewise as a good employee you don’t abuse unlimited and take off half the year.