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Dune's Butlerian Jihad and the Future of AI
- grey-area 4mo agoSeems a bit premature given the current state of word generators.
- the8472 4mo agoI guess top mathematicians are also mere word generators? https://openai.com/index/model-disproves-discrete-geometry-conjecture/ https://openai.com/index/model-disproves-discrete-geometry-c...
- grey-area 4mo agoThey’re useful tools, they’re not general AI, nor are they anywhere near the scenario in Dune.
- thinking_cactus 4mo agoBeing a human may be sufficient (with important exceptions) to play chess, but playing chess well is not sufficient to be a human. Likewise with math, it turns out, it appears. Likewise with most other things we classify as needing intelligence, I bet. It turns out that intelligence is not the same as humanity or sentience etc..
- the8472 4mo agoBut they're gaining more and more formerly exclusively human capabilities, increasingly advanced ones. The future isn't here yet, but good policy requires extrapolating and considering predictable consequences before they happen.
- tim333 4mo agoIf you're going to do a jihad it'll be easier against ChatGPT than waiting till they have Terminator 2 style things.
- orbital-decay 4mo agoOf course the article mixes things up in order to push a cheap narrative. Herbert's Butlerian Jihad was a rehash of Islamic ban on images of people that is supposed to prevent idolatry and preserve uniqueness of God. It's purely religious in nature and has nothing to do with "tools of oppression". Not to mention that absolutely any automation, even the simplest kind, was considered a thinking machine and was banned, not just that arbitrary range of things called AI.
- kombookcha 4mo agoThis is a flattening of Herbert's angle - it is explicitly stated in the quoted section in the article that part of the reason for the ban is that the people who control thinking machines would exert outsized control on those who depend on them. This is a recurring theme in Dune, as we see with anxieties about dependency on mentats and Bene Gesserit truthsayers (the latter of which are in fact exerting hidden influence from their positions of trust). Suk doctors are theoretically safer because of their imperial conditioning, but even that can be tampered with, as we see with Dr Yueh. This is a central problem in Dune: Whatever you depend on will gain power over you (or whoever controls the thing you depend on). Dependency on spice, on truthsayers, on mentats, or on thinking machines - even specific relationships. All of these are systemic vulnerabilities and therefore potential attack vectors in Dune. (Edit: Suk Doctors get imperial conditioning, not mentats)
- stevekemp 4mo ago> The mentats are theoretically safer because of their imperial conditioning, but even that can be tampered with, as we see with Dr Yueh Dr Yueh was not a mentat, but a suk doctor who was subject to conditioning. (Which was broken by the Piter de Vries, via the pain amplifiers applied to his wife, Wanna.) Paul himself was being trained to be a mentat, and there were no hints of conditioning there, neither with Paul, Hawat, or de Vries (albeit he was described as a "twisted mentat", whatever that means).
- kombookcha 4mo agoHey, you're right, I don't think mentats get the conditioning as part of their training. I must have misremembered Thufir having the diamond tattoo.
- ArneCode 4mo agoI think it is unlikely that people will act to completely abolish technology once they are used to it in their everyday lives.
- TurdF3rguson 4mo agoThe Amish (can't) enter the chat
- ArneCode 4mo agoOk, you made me laugh :) I think that most Amish were never used to technology though?
- kombookcha 4mo agoYoung Amish typically venture out into wider society for a while to try it out for a while before returning to their community and settling into adulthood. Presumably the Amish returning now will have encountered LLMs or their output in one form or another during their journey. They're supposed to satisfy their curiosity and try a bunch of stuff, so they can make an informed choice about letting it go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa
- ArneCode 4mo agoOk, that's cool
- plastic-enjoyer 4mo agoThis is called technological momentum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_momentum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_momentum
- tomaytotomato 4mo agoLLMs cannot think, they just guess with some magic with the help of things like softmax (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softmax_function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softmax_function), that makes it seem intelligent. We aren't enslaved or at any risk just yet with this form of "thinking machine", but we do need to culutrally and emotionally come to terms with them. Let's not have any other "jihad" just yet, there's plenty of other jihads going on right now.
- thih9 4mo agoNote that the article doesn’t say that AI itself would do the enslavement; on the contrary: > With the rise of AI came the rise of a technocratic class that created and controlled these machines, leading to oppressive structures over knowledge and the economy. It also quotes Dune, where it is said more directly: > Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
- willis936 4mo agoI really despise when the term technocrat is misused. It has a very specific meaning in politics and is nowhere near "broligarch", "plutocrat from the tech industry", or any of the thousand different, legitimate ways to describe what people sometimes mean when they mistakenly say "technocrat". How can a political opinion be taken seriously when this extremely basic level of literacy on the topic is missing?
- thih9 4mo agoNot to "well ackchyually" your "well ackchyually", but language evolves. I guess in a few years we'll consider it just another instance of semantic shift, perhaps with a splash of folk etymology[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_etymology
- maleldil 4mo ago
- 2d8a875f-39a2-4 4mo agoMuch as I liked the books, enjoyed the most recent movies, big fan of Herbert; lining up the Pandora books to reread next. Etc.... people tend to read too much into his world building. Mostly he was just looking for backstory to lightly justify the story he wanted to tell. Pretty much none of the world building holds up to more than a passing scrutiny, and the Butlerian Jihad is no exception. Better to just enjoy the tales for what they are.
- vintermann 4mo agoAgreed. He didn't have any strong opinions on AI, the idea that AI is the big bad mostly comes from his son's sequels as far as I can tell. Herbert set up the story with computers mostly written out because it's humans who are interesting, and it was humans he wanted to write a story about.
- officialchicken 4mo agoTotally agree with all the above: the jihad + OCB's role (IMO) is great author's device for setting up the scattering and evolution of the Honored Matres (chaotic evil) - where the potent mix of religion and gene manipulation become the key instruments of control by fear and seduction.
- Sol- 4mo agoDoesn't it seem implausible that in the world of Dune they reached their level of technology without AGI? Perhaps all their tech is pre Butlerian Jihad, but even that seems questionable. Seems like if it was adopted as a policy, there would have to be many gray areas where people pretend that they aren't really using AI - the ship's computer is just a domain specific finetuned version, after all, etc. Additionally, the transhumanist ambitions represented by the Bene Gesserit or Navigator seem on par with all AI dangers to me. Why would the dangers of an incomprehensible machine mind be worse than the dangers of a transhuman being that was bred and optimized for generations? Who solved the alignment problem for these superhumans?
- ArcHound 4mo ago"Who solved the alignment problem for these superhumans?" The gun, pointed to their head.
- AndrewDucker 4mo agoWhy are you assuming that some technology can only be discovered by AGI?
- GlibMonkeyDeath 4mo agoThe Bene Gesserit tried to solve alignment through their breeding schedule, but Lady Jessica threw a wrench into it by bearing a son (Paul) out of love for Duke Leto. Paul wasn't aligned with the Bene Gesserit, and hilarity ensued. So I agree, I don't see why thinking machines are a worse alignment problem than enhanced humans. See also the Wrath of Khan. I try not to think too deeply about it, or I won't enjoy the story. How could a society have gravity suspensors, "shields", and lasguns, but no advanced computing capability somewhere? And why use swords/knives for fighting, when projectile weapons are so much more deadly? I still love the books, but I have friends who can't enjoy the Dune world due to its many contradictions. Edit: I realize that "shields" supposedly made ordinary projectile weapons ineffective - but they had advanced drone technology (e.g. the assassin drone used against Paul, which was also stupid)
- GeoAtreides 4mo ago
- fxj 4mo agoPeople talk about a Butlerian Jihad against AI as if you could just ban LLMs and be done. I bet some govermenst would like to do that for ordinary people. They can ban visible products (chatbots, public APIs, GPAI services), and laws are already targeting those. but you cant ban the math! the same transformer/attention ideas work great as compressors, function approximators, and surrogate models in physics, chemistry, CFD, etc., where they show up as "PDE‑Transformer", "Neural Operator", or "Hybrid Surrogate Model", and not as "chatbot". ;-) So even if you outlaw certain AI uses, the core tech will just move into scientific and engineering workflows under different names, where most people won’t recognize it. Would be interesting whether it is possible to write a LLM-like program just using compression and function interpolation algoritms. just my 2 ct
- in-silico 4mo ago> Would be interesting whether it is possible to write a LLM-like program just using compression and function interpolation algoritms. gzip can be used as a (not very good) LLM-like text and image generator: https://arxiv.org/abs/2309.10668 https://arxiv.org/abs/2309.10668
- PMunch 4mo agoI believe the Butlerian Jihad caused a ban for "thinking machines" with a tenet of "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." This to me at least points at a ban for things that behave or feel like a human, not on the underlying math. An ornithopter probably has some fancy AI-esque flight stabilization, but it isn't expressed in a human way. The same goes for function approximators and surrogate models, no one would do the things we see people doing with AIs today, letting them talk them into heinous acts or fall in love with them. That being said I can very much recommend the two Hyperion books for a good look at AI and co-dependence in sci-fi.
- Cthulhu_ 4mo agoIt'll have flight stabilization and controls and the like, but those things predate and / or do not need AI; AI algorithms are too expensive and slow for realtime flight control things. Some of those were traditionally done mechanically, even.
- dev_l1x_be 4mo agoHe was also warning against the followers, myths, institutions, and power structures that turn a talented person into an untouchable savior. Sounds familiar?
- Cthulhu_ 4mo agoSounds like Warhammer 40K where the God-Emperor was like "I am not the Messiah!" and everyone's like "He IS the Messiah!" but then perhaps his intent was to be worshiped as a god all along. 4d chess etc.
- ArcHound 4mo agoThe article had a great opportunity to at least reference the newest encyclical from the Pope. With a bit of click bait, this might be the first step of "Butlerian Jihad" -> "AI Crusade" and a founding text for the Orange CATHOLIC Bible. I saw a take that you can now cite religious reasons to refuse working on and with AI - if more people try this, I wonder how it'd play out. Interesting times.
- expedition32 4mo agoThe Chinese government cares a lot about civil unrest. Which is why they are being much more careful with AI. They remember how the CCP came into power. More concerned about America. Its freedom of speech means that every douchebag billionaire tech bro is allowed to run of their mouth and rile up the proles.
- TrackerFF 4mo agoWouldn't surprise me if the rise of AI leads to some sort of Khmer Rouge / Cambodia-lite type of situation, where anti-technology and anti-intellectualism will grow. Right now the message is more or less: If you want to "AI-proof" yourself, pick up a trade or manual job. If we create a society where all the peons will work in healthcare / trades / manual labor, while the trillionaires control all their other aspects of (digital) life, that could very well usher in reactionary leaders.
- inglor_cz 4mo agoI'd expect violent anti-technology rebels to be easily defeated by AI-powered drones, though. Much like the traditional Samurai of Japan got crushed [0] by a new model peasant army of the Meiji Emperor, which adapted European guns, artillery and drill and basically exterminated them. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satsuma_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satsuma_Rebellion
- retox 4mo ago[dead]
- GeoAtreides 4mo ago>the Bene Gesserit sisterhood with their powers of prescience no, the Bene Gesserit doesn't have prescience, the opposite maybe (postcognition) >Spice melange, which can only be found on the planet Arrakis (aka Dune), is the drug that enables this enhanced mental cognition no, for anyone not called Atreides spice just prolongs life; some mentats take sapho juice, but they don't need drugs. .
- defrost 4mo agoAs I recall, perhaps erroneously, Guild Navigators are nominal humans who owe their ability to move ships to being spiced to their gills.
- GeoAtreides 4mo agoYes, I forgot about the Guild Navigators. Technically they don't move the ships, they see the safe path to the destination.
- defrost 4mo agoI haven't read the book since I was 13 / 14 (ish) and that was some decades ago and not so long after it was first published, by my recollection there was a strong parallel between Spice (must flow) and Oil in a not so subtle way. Via the Navigators, who lived in dense clouds of spice, transport across the Dune universe was possible - spice was as fundamental to trade and commerce as oil has been here on earth for the past century. If that recollection was correct, it seems odd to overlook one of the key layers of the original work (as I recall it, of course).
- sometimelurker 4mo agoI think the navigators were also gmo'ed a bit
- Schlagbohrer 4mo agoThe Bene Gesserit do have prescience, what are you talking about? It's why the god emperor later tries to breed humans who's actions cannot be foreseen and can therefore escape the oppression of the future-seeing Bene Gesserit.
- yomismoaqui 4mo agoIf you want to base your core beliefs on sci-fi books at least read a little more than Dune. Go read some books from The Culture, better series than the Dune.
- Schlagbohrer 4mo agoExcellent counter example, since The Culture books portray a utopia made possible by truly benevolent AI overlords.
- insane_dreamer 4mo agoI believe that at some point we are going to see a very serious public backlash to AI -- not because of the technology itself, but because of the way it is and will be used by large corporations to suck the life out of middle income earners, and used by governments to exert more control and suppress dissent (see China's use of AI to predict who might be likely to rebel; you can be sure the NSA is not far behind). The last time there was serious public demonstrations against a technology was the anti-nuclear demonstrations in the 60s/70s when people were rightfully afraid that we had created something capable of destroying us all. The movements petered out, but it did force things like SALT, more aggressive IAEA to prevent proliferation, etc.
- Schlagbohrer 4mo agoThis is the classic issue of creating newer, better, more advanced technology and science within a broken social / economic system. Feeding better tools into a broken society just makes things worse. Giving dictators better ways to spy on and dominate their population (and to wage war) just worsens those things, even though that same technology and science in an already-existing utopian society could have been used to improve life on Earth for everyone.
- insane_dreamer 4mo agodespite being so smart, humans are so f*ing stupid
- Jach 4mo agoThe Dune series doesn't stop with the first novel, I encourage all who liked the first one to continue reading up through at least God Emperor of Dune. Something the usually ironic calls for a Butlerian Jihad against modern LLMs miss is that even in the Dune universe, it just traded one form of stagnation and tyranny for another, it didn't really improve things. It delayed the threat of human extinction from a race of sentient machines, but such a future is inevitable without the Golden Path, and over the entire time groups like the Ixians were still developing technology to skirt the line.