5 ms·

This is the new way and we need to stop it now. Forget the 'is it legal or not' arguments, their lawyers will win. Just get mad and tell them this is wrong. Sto

This is the new way and we need to stop it now. Forget the 'is it legal or not' arguments, their lawyers will win. Just get mad and tell them this is wrong. Stop buying their #$@#$ software. Block them. This is what is wrong with cars too. Don't want to give them real time data on you and your passengers and instead try to disconnect the modem? Well, no car functionality for you even if it doesn't need it. -get mad- Stop taking it. Microsoft is the enemy and needs to be treated that way. Same with any tech company that does the bait and switch TOS world. I buy so little software now and it is hard, but unless we stop this now it will only get worse.

appplication 5mo ago
Hard agree. In the past, companies made their profits by providing value that induces a sale, but the trend in the last 1-2 decades is increasingly towards extracting value. The main difference being we are moving away from clearly defined transactions and companies view their customer base as a resource that they can trade increasing amounts of asymmetric, long-term exploitation for some pre-calculated probability of churn. And of course companies like Microsoft or the car companies in your example have experimentally determined that the less transparent and immediate the product transaction is, the less likely some percent of their customer base will fully understand exactly what it is they are giving and receiving in turn from each of the companies that supposedly providing them value. The answer is not to simply boycott, but to actively and aggressively punish companies for acting with this particular brand of capitalist maliciousness. It includes being vocal online but also pushing for more aggressive countermeasures against unchecked greed. Billionaire taxes, closing corporate tax loopholes, consumer protection, expanded antitrust, right to repair, labor rights. All of the policies that are “bad for business”. Because fuck them, policies that are good for business have only led to exploitation of the masses and we get nothing in return but more creative value extraction. It’s past due we have sympathy for the corporate bottom line and time we start to get excited when companies bleed a little in the face of policies and regulations that absolutely do not care about corporate interest.
- walrus01 5mo ago
  > but the trend in the last 1-2 decades is increasingly towards extracting value It's rent-seeking in the economics textbook sense of the word. Actually quite straightforward once you understand and internalize that they want you to rent SAAS products forever with a monthly recurring bill into eternity. And then as the parent poster 'jmward' commented above, choose not to engage with it. In the example of this specific product, Libreoffice is good enough. There's also a renewed European project for open source/self hosted office suite software.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
- lenerdenator 5mo ago
  > In the past, companies made their profits by providing value that induces a sale, but the trend in the last 1-2 decades is increasingly towards extracting value. The main difference being we are moving away from clearly defined transactions and companies view their customer base as a resource that they can trade increasing amounts of asymmetric, long-term exploitation for some pre-calculated probability of churn. That's not an accident. In the last 1-2 decades, the largest generation in American history started retiring en masse. They didn't have enough children to replace them, because the birth rate peaked in 1965. This generation is now drawing off of retirement savings, the vast majority of which is backed by ownership in equities and bonds in publicly-traded companies. When you don't have more people to provide value that includes a sale, like you say, and still have to increase value of equities and bonds every 90 days, you have to more intensely monetize each customer. It's only going to get worse unless you bring a lot of people into the market as new potential customers, but you can only do so much of that without causing social disharmony.
  - kyleee 5mo ago
    100%. One of my crazy ideas (but a good one) is to invite all of pakistan to america in order to fix it all
    - MandieD 5mo ago
radium3d 5mo ago
You didn't start using libreoffice.org like 15 years ago?
- exmadscientist 5mo ago
  Most companies didn't, no. Just because alternatives exist for some people some of the time does not mean Office is worthless, or that buying it isn't rational. (Though buying it starts to look a lot less rational when things like this happen.)
  - isityettime 5mo ago
    Most Microsoft purchases at a large organization are rational only because of how much the company has already sunk into Microsoft. Microsoft's strategy had never been centered on their software succeeding on its intrinsic merits. Consequently the best part of not buying Microsoft's shitty software is that it spares you from "having" to buy their (other) shitty software.
    - jmward01 5mo ago
      > Microsoft's strategy had never been centered on their software succeeding on its intrinsic merits. Microsoft used to build the best stuff. I'm not sure when that ended, I just remember the decline. I used to -jump- at release day for their latest OS version. Their dev tools were considered top tier and I used to like Word. Now every interaction I have with a MS product is painful and my trust in them is so far negative that I always assume the worst for every interaction. Wanna keep playing Minecraft without an MS account? We -promise- not to stop allowing you to do that after we buy it..... Want to use your computer without us advertising? Want to even use your computer without MS as a gatekeeper for your login? I have no idea why anyone would give them a dollar other than lock-in.
      - ribosometronome 5mo ago
        The span in which it would make sense to be keen on jumping to the latest OS pretty narrow.
pmontra 5mo ago
> Microsoft is the enemy This made me smile, sadly. I remember when Microsoft was the new darling not many years ago, because of VS Code and WSL and the apparent goodwill about open source. Some people and I, who lived through all of Microsoft, were skeptical and believed that it was only another embrace phase of their EEE pattern. I'm not sure if they are extinguishing something but it turns out that they are squeezing money out of the pockets of their users now.
- nine_k 5mo ago
  Microsoft is big, internally incoherent (even inimical, according to some accounts), and people responsible for VSCode and WSL are likely totally unrelated to people determining when and how to crack MS's crown jewel, the Office suite, in an attempt to squeeze out a few dollars more.
  - hotstickyballs 5mo ago
    That's why anything that goes against the long-established corporate culture aren't likely to stay around for long.
    - emodendroket 5mo ago
      Visual Studio Code has been around over a decade and there is zero indication it's going anywhere.
      - adithyassekhar 5mo ago
        Apart from academics, who are forced to stay away from ai, i feel vs code will regress to a code reader as the models improve.
  - shimman 5mo ago
    Why are we acting like VS Code is nothing but a way to stop independent developers from selling their tools? Things like VS Code literally destroy the cottage industry and likely has held back our industry by several decades. MSFT needs to be at least six separate companies: Windows, Office, GitHub, Visual Studio, Xbox, and Azure. That would kneecap the company and destroy its parasitic blight on our industry for several decades and if luck we with us indefinitely.
guidedlight 5mo ago
This has been happening with Video Games for a while. There is a major initiative called "Stop Killing Games" which was triggered when Ubisoft bricked "The Crew" when servers were shutdown. https://www.stopkillinggames.com/ https://www.stopkillinggames.com/ There has been some success. There is new legislation in California which has passed the Assembly. https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/22330/stop-killing-games-movement-gains-momentum-california-assembly-passes-game-protection-bill https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/22330/stop-killing-game... And there is a citizens initiative in Europe which the the European Commission must respond to: https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/20...
- throwawayk7h 5mo ago
  It's good legislation. I would love to see this extended to "Stop Killing Software" in general, with the same provisions.
  - Akronymus 5mo ago
    Hopefully SKG can serve as a precedent to help consumer rights expand.
- wilg 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - DrammBA 5mo ago
    > I think you should be allowed to stop supporting software or shut down your servers. That has nothing to do with Stop Killing Games.
    - rocqua 5mo ago
      At least the servers bit seems very related no? I’d love to know more though.
rockskon 5mo ago
"Their lawyers will win" is plainly wrong assumption if something is clearly illegal.
- emodendroket 5mo ago
  Yeah. But it seems unlikely that that's the caes here.
- andwur 5mo ago
  Sadly that only works when all parties agree on the "clearly" part. They will lose, but only if you can endure years of squabbling in court and have unlimited funds for your legal team to prove that the aforementioned clearly really is clear. More likely they'll bleed you dry and force a settlement with an NDA bolt on. For a company like MS, pissing a few million down the drain on making life hell for litigants turns into a sound investment: no one looks at it and thinks "I want what they're having". This is where you would ideally have a government-backed consumer rights agency step in and take up the battle.
xg15 5mo ago
> Forget the 'is it legal or not' arguments, their lawyers will win. Just get mad and tell them this is wrong. Stop buying their #$@#$ software. I'm surprised that going through the legal system is already seen as completely useless, but calling for a consumer mass boycott would totally work...
emodendroket 5mo ago
I think it's a vanishingly small number of consumers buying Office compared to businesses.
hliyan 5mo ago
If you consider that profit is a function of price and cost, and price is a function of scarcity (i.e. demand relative to supply), then over time, logic dictates that a strategy of profit maximization will work to create scarcity as soon as the profit curve plateaus. In economic orthodoxy, the only defense against this is the hope that there is more than one supplier and that they will remain adversarial, which is not an equilibrium state if you consider that a strategy of cooperative pricing and supply curtailment can at times maximize profits more effectively than competitive oversupply. Perhaps we've been judging the benefits of unregulated free markets based solely on our observations of the first half of the profit curve. Perhaps we're now seeing many of the world's markets moving to the latter half.
- rocqua 5mo ago
  This is a rather strong analysis. And especially the point on behaviour change once market growth plateaus was new to me. Thanks! I do want to nitpick on “unregulated free markets”. Because it’s almost an oxymoron. At least if one wants to rely on the theorems that prove free markets are best. Those theorems assume a bit more than just a lack of regulation. They assume no information imbalance between parties. No ways outside of competition to keep out market entrants, and no collusion between market parties. All of those assumptions, in order to approach them in the real world, really require some strong regulation. Hence I would argue that the problem isn’t just the growth curve flattening, but also a US (and EU) halt to Trust busting. Massive weakening of consumer protection agencies, and a general weakening of regulatory agencies by e.g. court cases. It’s not just that we need stronger regulation because tech companies reached a point in their lifecycle where they wish to exploit more, as you so clearly argued. On top of that, regulatory power has been pulled back.
  - NitiX 4mo ago
    [flagged]
  - hliyan 5mo ago
    Agreed. I would define a market as a mutual social contract that favours voluntary estimation of resource value, and exchange thereof, over violent competition for resources. Such a contact must necessarily be enforced, since voluntary compliance among humans is never 100%. So yes, some form of regulation is built into the very definition of a free market. I'm fond of saying that, as rules approach zero, competition approaches war.
tjwebbnorfolk 5mo ago
As this is only a problem for people/companies who have willingly decided to be customers of Microsoft, I'm having a hard time getting outraged over this. This is how they've always behaved, and anyone who is surprised by this hasn't been paying attention for the last 30 years.
nepthar 5mo ago
I agree. Take what ya can, give nothing back!
fithisux 5mo ago
I gave you an upvote. How many downvotes did you get?
Razengan 5mo ago
I never used anything by Microsoft since I bailed to Macs after Windows 8.. and with Nintendo, PlayStation and CrossOver etc for games I never even felt the need to. Every time I took a look at Windows once every few years it still reeked of shit. A happy 10~ years ..until they bought GitHub. Then they crippled the Visual Studio Code Extensions Marketplace so VSCodium users couldn't easily install some extensions. Coincidentally I was just in a YouTube rabbit hole of old operating systems and computing platforms in the 1980s and 90s and how Microsoft killed them with scummy tactics, like sending suited thugs to Japanese PC manufacturers and threatening to pull the Windows license if they even OFFERED users an OPTION for alternative OSes! Fuck Microsoft. Bill Gates deserves a few more pies in his face.
- tjpnz 5mo ago
  Bill Gates also deserves a criminal investigation into what he did on Pedo Island.
CJefferson 5mo ago
No, I think we do need legal protection. We have so many high quality protections when it comes to real-world items -- they could be better, but if companies are going to move everything on line, and put tech in everything, they can goddamn give us the same level of protections.

appplication 5mo ago

Hard agree. In the past, companies made their profits by providing value that induces a sale, but the trend in the last 1-2 decades is increasingly towards extracting value. The main difference being we are moving away from clearly defined transactions and companies view their customer base as a resource that they can trade increasing amounts of asymmetric, long-term exploitation for some pre-calculated probability of churn. And of course companies like Microsoft or the car companies in your example have experimentally determined that the less transparent and immediate the product transaction is, the less likely some percent of their customer base will fully understand exactly what it is they are giving and receiving in turn from each of the companies that supposedly providing them value. The answer is not to simply boycott, but to actively and aggressively punish companies for acting with this particular brand of capitalist maliciousness. It includes being vocal online but also pushing for more aggressive countermeasures against unchecked greed. Billionaire taxes, closing corporate tax loopholes, consumer protection, expanded antitrust, right to repair, labor rights. All of the policies that are “bad for business”. Because fuck them, policies that are good for business have only led to exploitation of the masses and we get nothing in return but more creative value extraction. It’s past due we have sympathy for the corporate bottom line and time we start to get excited when companies bleed a little in the face of policies and regulations that absolutely do not care about corporate interest.

walrus01 5mo ago
> but the trend in the last 1-2 decades is increasingly towards extracting value It's rent-seeking in the economics textbook sense of the word. Actually quite straightforward once you understand and internalize that they want you to rent SAAS products forever with a monthly recurring bill into eternity. And then as the parent poster 'jmward' commented above, choose not to engage with it. In the example of this specific product, Libreoffice is good enough. There's also a renewed European project for open source/self hosted office suite software.
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
lenerdenator 5mo ago
> In the past, companies made their profits by providing value that induces a sale, but the trend in the last 1-2 decades is increasingly towards extracting value. The main difference being we are moving away from clearly defined transactions and companies view their customer base as a resource that they can trade increasing amounts of asymmetric, long-term exploitation for some pre-calculated probability of churn. That's not an accident. In the last 1-2 decades, the largest generation in American history started retiring en masse. They didn't have enough children to replace them, because the birth rate peaked in 1965. This generation is now drawing off of retirement savings, the vast majority of which is backed by ownership in equities and bonds in publicly-traded companies. When you don't have more people to provide value that includes a sale, like you say, and still have to increase value of equities and bonds every 90 days, you have to more intensely monetize each customer. It's only going to get worse unless you bring a lot of people into the market as new potential customers, but you can only do so much of that without causing social disharmony.
- kyleee 5mo ago
  100%. One of my crazy ideas (but a good one) is to invite all of pakistan to america in order to fix it all
  - MandieD 5mo ago

radium3d 5mo ago

You didn't start using libreoffice.org like 15 years ago?

exmadscientist 5mo ago
Most companies didn't, no. Just because alternatives exist for some people some of the time does not mean Office is worthless, or that buying it isn't rational. (Though buying it starts to look a lot less rational when things like this happen.)
- isityettime 5mo ago
  Most Microsoft purchases at a large organization are rational only because of how much the company has already sunk into Microsoft. Microsoft's strategy had never been centered on their software succeeding on its intrinsic merits. Consequently the best part of not buying Microsoft's shitty software is that it spares you from "having" to buy their (other) shitty software.
  - jmward01 5mo ago
    > Microsoft's strategy had never been centered on their software succeeding on its intrinsic merits. Microsoft used to build the best stuff. I'm not sure when that ended, I just remember the decline. I used to -jump- at release day for their latest OS version. Their dev tools were considered top tier and I used to like Word. Now every interaction I have with a MS product is painful and my trust in them is so far negative that I always assume the worst for every interaction. Wanna keep playing Minecraft without an MS account? We -promise- not to stop allowing you to do that after we buy it..... Want to use your computer without us advertising? Want to even use your computer without MS as a gatekeeper for your login? I have no idea why anyone would give them a dollar other than lock-in.
    - ribosometronome 5mo ago
      The span in which it would make sense to be keen on jumping to the latest OS pretty narrow.

pmontra 5mo ago

> Microsoft is the enemy This made me smile, sadly. I remember when Microsoft was the new darling not many years ago, because of VS Code and WSL and the apparent goodwill about open source. Some people and I, who lived through all of Microsoft, were skeptical and believed that it was only another embrace phase of their EEE pattern. I'm not sure if they are extinguishing something but it turns out that they are squeezing money out of the pockets of their users now.

nine_k 5mo ago
Microsoft is big, internally incoherent (even inimical, according to some accounts), and people responsible for VSCode and WSL are likely totally unrelated to people determining when and how to crack MS's crown jewel, the Office suite, in an attempt to squeeze out a few dollars more.
- hotstickyballs 5mo ago
  That's why anything that goes against the long-established corporate culture aren't likely to stay around for long.
  - emodendroket 5mo ago
    Visual Studio Code has been around over a decade and there is zero indication it's going anywhere.
    - adithyassekhar 5mo ago
      Apart from academics, who are forced to stay away from ai, i feel vs code will regress to a code reader as the models improve.
- shimman 5mo ago
  Why are we acting like VS Code is nothing but a way to stop independent developers from selling their tools? Things like VS Code literally destroy the cottage industry and likely has held back our industry by several decades. MSFT needs to be at least six separate companies: Windows, Office, GitHub, Visual Studio, Xbox, and Azure. That would kneecap the company and destroy its parasitic blight on our industry for several decades and if luck we with us indefinitely.

guidedlight 5mo ago

This has been happening with Video Games for a while. There is a major initiative called "Stop Killing Games" which was triggered when Ubisoft bricked "The Crew" when servers were shutdown. https://www.stopkillinggames.com/ https://www.stopkillinggames.com/ There has been some success. There is new legislation in California which has passed the Assembly. https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/22330/stop-killing-games-movement-gains-momentum-california-assembly-passes-game-protection-bill https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/22330/stop-killing-game... And there is a citizens initiative in Europe which the the European Commission must respond to: https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/20...

throwawayk7h 5mo ago
It's good legislation. I would love to see this extended to "Stop Killing Software" in general, with the same provisions.
- Akronymus 5mo ago
  Hopefully SKG can serve as a precedent to help consumer rights expand.
wilg 5mo ago
[flagged]
- DrammBA 5mo ago
  > I think you should be allowed to stop supporting software or shut down your servers. That has nothing to do with Stop Killing Games.
  - rocqua 5mo ago
    At least the servers bit seems very related no? I’d love to know more though.

rockskon 5mo ago

"Their lawyers will win" is plainly wrong assumption if something is clearly illegal.

emodendroket 5mo ago
Yeah. But it seems unlikely that that's the caes here.
andwur 5mo ago
Sadly that only works when all parties agree on the "clearly" part. They will lose, but only if you can endure years of squabbling in court and have unlimited funds for your legal team to prove that the aforementioned clearly really is clear. More likely they'll bleed you dry and force a settlement with an NDA bolt on. For a company like MS, pissing a few million down the drain on making life hell for litigants turns into a sound investment: no one looks at it and thinks "I want what they're having". This is where you would ideally have a government-backed consumer rights agency step in and take up the battle.

xg15 5mo ago

> Forget the 'is it legal or not' arguments, their lawyers will win. Just get mad and tell them this is wrong. Stop buying their #$@#$ software. I'm surprised that going through the legal system is already seen as completely useless, but calling for a consumer mass boycott would totally work...

emodendroket 5mo ago

I think it's a vanishingly small number of consumers buying Office compared to businesses.

hliyan 5mo ago

If you consider that profit is a function of price and cost, and price is a function of scarcity (i.e. demand relative to supply), then over time, logic dictates that a strategy of profit maximization will work to create scarcity as soon as the profit curve plateaus. In economic orthodoxy, the only defense against this is the hope that there is more than one supplier and that they will remain adversarial, which is not an equilibrium state if you consider that a strategy of cooperative pricing and supply curtailment can at times maximize profits more effectively than competitive oversupply. Perhaps we've been judging the benefits of unregulated free markets based solely on our observations of the first half of the profit curve. Perhaps we're now seeing many of the world's markets moving to the latter half.

rocqua 5mo ago
This is a rather strong analysis. And especially the point on behaviour change once market growth plateaus was new to me. Thanks! I do want to nitpick on “unregulated free markets”. Because it’s almost an oxymoron. At least if one wants to rely on the theorems that prove free markets are best. Those theorems assume a bit more than just a lack of regulation. They assume no information imbalance between parties. No ways outside of competition to keep out market entrants, and no collusion between market parties. All of those assumptions, in order to approach them in the real world, really require some strong regulation. Hence I would argue that the problem isn’t just the growth curve flattening, but also a US (and EU) halt to Trust busting. Massive weakening of consumer protection agencies, and a general weakening of regulatory agencies by e.g. court cases. It’s not just that we need stronger regulation because tech companies reached a point in their lifecycle where they wish to exploit more, as you so clearly argued. On top of that, regulatory power has been pulled back.
- NitiX 4mo ago
  [flagged]
- hliyan 5mo ago
  Agreed. I would define a market as a mutual social contract that favours voluntary estimation of resource value, and exchange thereof, over violent competition for resources. Such a contact must necessarily be enforced, since voluntary compliance among humans is never 100%. So yes, some form of regulation is built into the very definition of a free market. I'm fond of saying that, as rules approach zero, competition approaches war.

tjwebbnorfolk 5mo ago

As this is only a problem for people/companies who have willingly decided to be customers of Microsoft, I'm having a hard time getting outraged over this. This is how they've always behaved, and anyone who is surprised by this hasn't been paying attention for the last 30 years.

nepthar 5mo ago

I agree. Take what ya can, give nothing back!

fithisux 5mo ago

I gave you an upvote. How many downvotes did you get?

Razengan 5mo ago

I never used anything by Microsoft since I bailed to Macs after Windows 8.. and with Nintendo, PlayStation and CrossOver etc for games I never even felt the need to. Every time I took a look at Windows once every few years it still reeked of shit. A happy 10~ years ..until they bought GitHub. Then they crippled the Visual Studio Code Extensions Marketplace so VSCodium users couldn't easily install some extensions. Coincidentally I was just in a YouTube rabbit hole of old operating systems and computing platforms in the 1980s and 90s and how Microsoft killed them with scummy tactics, like sending suited thugs to Japanese PC manufacturers and threatening to pull the Windows license if they even OFFERED users an OPTION for alternative OSes! Fuck Microsoft. Bill Gates deserves a few more pies in his face.

tjpnz 5mo ago
Bill Gates also deserves a criminal investigation into what he did on Pedo Island.

CJefferson 5mo ago

No, I think we do need legal protection. We have so many high quality protections when it comes to real-world items -- they could be better, but if companies are going to move everything on line, and put tech in everything, they can goddamn give us the same level of protections.