3 ms·

The point of the Framework is to run Linux, and not to be part of Apple's ecosystem. I don't want my computer to update itself without my permission, report tel

by drnick1 5mo ago

The point of the Framework is to run Linux, and not to be part of Apple's ecosystem. I don't want my computer to update itself without my permission, report telemetry to Apple, upload anything to any "cloud" or request that I log into something. If you don't think this is a big deal, wait until an age or identity verification law is passed somewhere, and Apple will enforce it against your will, on the computer that you bought and thought that you owned.

IshKebab 5mo ago
That's not the only point of Framework. It also has to be a good laptop, and priced well enough that its repair/upgrade story actually makes sense.
teaearlgraycold 5mo ago
> I don't want my computer to update itself without my permission Does this happen on MacOS? I don’t think I’ve experienced this.
- kevinrineer 5mo ago
  For an MDM managed computer (JAMF I know for sure), it can be configured that way per a company policy. I am not 100% sure of the answer for a computer not managed by JAMF as I have not experienced a forced update while using a non-MDM managed Mac in ~1.5 years of using a pre-owned M1.
  - shepherdjerred 5mo ago
    An MDM device is not owned by the user. Of course you’re not going to have control over the device.
- boobsbr 5mo ago
  I have a 2015 Air running El Capitain, never updated itself.
  - nicce 5mo ago
    Just 2 days ago my MacBook closed all apps it could and tried to update from 26.3.1 to 26.5 I guess current version matters.
    - rbanffy 5mo ago
      It’s most likely about the severity of the bugs they are fixing. I’m OK for my laptop to save my work and self upgrade if that closes a browser drive-by RCE vulnerability that could have hit me.
- MBCook 5mo ago
  No. They opt you in to it. Possibly repeatedly. But you’re never fully forced. I realize that’s far from ideal, but as a home user you do have control still. Staying updated is part of “the Apple way”. If you don’t like it, you’re in for a fight until your hardware loses update support.
- commandersaki 5mo ago
  Imagined issues.
- tumult 5mo ago
  They did once try forcing macOS 12 users to update to macOS 14, without asking for permission, and overriding any security prompts: https://eclecticlight.co/2024/02/12/can-you-avoid-a-forced-upgrade-to-sonoma/ https://eclecticlight.co/2024/02/12/can-you-avoid-a-forced-u... This happened to me. I was able to notice it from network activity lights and stop it by disconnecting the network. Other people I know weren't so lucky.
OJFord 5mo ago
> The point of the Framework is to run Linux Until recently they've been almost as second-class-Linux-to-Windows as say Dell, but perhaps you just meant 'non-macOS'? (For example, I'm currently struggling to get my early-days pre-ordered 11th gen Intel BIOS updated from v3.07 without a) the official Windows updater; b) modifying the supplied firmware on the instruction of AI or stranger third-parties in unmerged PRs/GH issues.)
- rmunn 5mo ago
  I'm just one datapoint, but my Framework 16 (bought a little over a year ago with no OS, has only ever had Linux installed on it) has never given me trouble with firmware updates. I've updated the BIOS twice, and other firmware, all through `fwupdmgr` with no issues. I bought the AMD chip rather than Intel, it's possible that that was why I had no issues, but I don't actually know.
  - OJFord 5mo ago
    I'd call that pretty recent :) – fwupdmgr wasn't supported (not as in 'you're on your own', but 'blobs not published to registry') until a few years ago. EFI shell update wasn't available early on. When I say I'm trying to, I'm actually struggling to establish if it's even possible without at least using Windows to jump to a certain version after which I can use EFI/fwupdmgr.
    - OJFord 5mo ago
      I do really like Framework the company, and my laptop, even as I wrote the above comments – so just want to note in the thread that I did get it sorted; my OG pre-order 11th gen Intel 13" is now on (latest at time of writing) the v3.24 BIOS, without Windows ever having been anywhere near it. :)
herewulf 5mo ago
Absolutely, and this is also a big deal for longevity of your purchase. I have an iMac from 2012 and it's a beautiful piece of reliable hardware, with a beautiful screen. However, the software is stuck on some version of macOS from years ago and so more and more applications are refusing to install. It's on life support with Firefox ESR and MacPorts (just recently — was on Homebrew). And it works fine for browsing and some light FOSS gaming. Not if Apple had their way though! They think it ought to be in the dump and I should have bought something else by now. Well, I have a Framework 13 also, running Linux, and despite the hardware being from 2022, it's all current software. And it will continue to be, practically as long as I wish it. So, yes, if we want to talk about value (like the author of the article), where is the value when some capricious corporation decides when you are done with your computer?
- rjrjrjrj 5mo ago
  > I have an iMac from 2012 > Well, I have a Framework 13 also, running Linux, and despite the hardware being from 2022 Please be sure to add a comment in 2036 on how your Framework/Linux experience worked out.
  - okasaki 5mo ago
    My thinkpad x61 from 2007 runs the latest Ubuntu and software edit: and has the same amount of ram as the mac neo.
    - rjrjrjrj 5mo ago
      1024x768 low-dpi display, Core 2 Duo, etc "Runs" doing some lifting here.
      - okasaki 5mo ago
        You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
- ildon 5mo ago
  While I don't dispute that Apple might or might not exploit its users via software, I believe some more credit is due to a company that can produce a piece of hardware like a personal computer that runs so smoothly after 14 years that its owner complains that more software updates should still be shipped to the device. I do not know of any other device that I could but as a consumer that would last that long. The framework laptops might be an exception, but they most definitely still need to prove it.
make3 5mo ago
this can't be their only market proposition (and is not), because the vast majority of anyone not in CS or IT doesn't care about this, or even know it's a thing

by drnick1 5mo ago

IshKebab 5mo ago

That's not the only point of Framework. It also has to be a good laptop, and priced well enough that its repair/upgrade story actually makes sense.

teaearlgraycold 5mo ago

> I don't want my computer to update itself without my permission Does this happen on MacOS? I don’t think I’ve experienced this.

kevinrineer 5mo ago
For an MDM managed computer (JAMF I know for sure), it can be configured that way per a company policy. I am not 100% sure of the answer for a computer not managed by JAMF as I have not experienced a forced update while using a non-MDM managed Mac in ~1.5 years of using a pre-owned M1.
- shepherdjerred 5mo ago
  An MDM device is not owned by the user. Of course you’re not going to have control over the device.
boobsbr 5mo ago
I have a 2015 Air running El Capitain, never updated itself.
- nicce 5mo ago
  Just 2 days ago my MacBook closed all apps it could and tried to update from 26.3.1 to 26.5 I guess current version matters.
  - rbanffy 5mo ago
    It’s most likely about the severity of the bugs they are fixing. I’m OK for my laptop to save my work and self upgrade if that closes a browser drive-by RCE vulnerability that could have hit me.
MBCook 5mo ago
No. They opt you in to it. Possibly repeatedly. But you’re never fully forced. I realize that’s far from ideal, but as a home user you do have control still. Staying updated is part of “the Apple way”. If you don’t like it, you’re in for a fight until your hardware loses update support.
commandersaki 5mo ago
Imagined issues.
tumult 5mo ago
They did once try forcing macOS 12 users to update to macOS 14, without asking for permission, and overriding any security prompts: https://eclecticlight.co/2024/02/12/can-you-avoid-a-forced-upgrade-to-sonoma/ https://eclecticlight.co/2024/02/12/can-you-avoid-a-forced-u... This happened to me. I was able to notice it from network activity lights and stop it by disconnecting the network. Other people I know weren't so lucky.

OJFord 5mo ago

> The point of the Framework is to run Linux Until recently they've been almost as second-class-Linux-to-Windows as say Dell, but perhaps you just meant 'non-macOS'? (For example, I'm currently struggling to get my early-days pre-ordered 11th gen Intel BIOS updated from v3.07 without a) the official Windows updater; b) modifying the supplied firmware on the instruction of AI or stranger third-parties in unmerged PRs/GH issues.)

rmunn 5mo ago
I'm just one datapoint, but my Framework 16 (bought a little over a year ago with no OS, has only ever had Linux installed on it) has never given me trouble with firmware updates. I've updated the BIOS twice, and other firmware, all through `fwupdmgr` with no issues. I bought the AMD chip rather than Intel, it's possible that that was why I had no issues, but I don't actually know.
- OJFord 5mo ago
  I'd call that pretty recent :) – fwupdmgr wasn't supported (not as in 'you're on your own', but 'blobs not published to registry') until a few years ago. EFI shell update wasn't available early on. When I say I'm trying to, I'm actually struggling to establish if it's even possible without at least using Windows to jump to a certain version after which I can use EFI/fwupdmgr.
  - OJFord 5mo ago
    I do really like Framework the company, and my laptop, even as I wrote the above comments – so just want to note in the thread that I did get it sorted; my OG pre-order 11th gen Intel 13" is now on (latest at time of writing) the v3.24 BIOS, without Windows ever having been anywhere near it. :)

herewulf 5mo ago

Absolutely, and this is also a big deal for longevity of your purchase. I have an iMac from 2012 and it's a beautiful piece of reliable hardware, with a beautiful screen. However, the software is stuck on some version of macOS from years ago and so more and more applications are refusing to install. It's on life support with Firefox ESR and MacPorts (just recently — was on Homebrew). And it works fine for browsing and some light FOSS gaming. Not if Apple had their way though! They think it ought to be in the dump and I should have bought something else by now. Well, I have a Framework 13 also, running Linux, and despite the hardware being from 2022, it's all current software. And it will continue to be, practically as long as I wish it. So, yes, if we want to talk about value (like the author of the article), where is the value when some capricious corporation decides when you are done with your computer?

rjrjrjrj 5mo ago
> I have an iMac from 2012 > Well, I have a Framework 13 also, running Linux, and despite the hardware being from 2022 Please be sure to add a comment in 2036 on how your Framework/Linux experience worked out.
- okasaki 5mo ago
  My thinkpad x61 from 2007 runs the latest Ubuntu and software edit: and has the same amount of ram as the mac neo.
  - rjrjrjrj 5mo ago
    1024x768 low-dpi display, Core 2 Duo, etc "Runs" doing some lifting here.
    - okasaki 5mo ago
      You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
ildon 5mo ago
While I don't dispute that Apple might or might not exploit its users via software, I believe some more credit is due to a company that can produce a piece of hardware like a personal computer that runs so smoothly after 14 years that its owner complains that more software updates should still be shipped to the device. I do not know of any other device that I could but as a consumer that would last that long. The framework laptops might be an exception, but they most definitely still need to prove it.

make3 5mo ago

this can't be their only market proposition (and is not), because the vast majority of anyone not in CS or IT doesn't care about this, or even know it's a thing