6 ms·

I think the answer to this is that schooling/care for people with disabilities that make it impossible for them to succeed in normal school should be a totally

by Bratmon 5mo ago

I think the answer to this is that schooling/care for people with disabilities that make it impossible for them to succeed in normal school should be a totally different budget with different success criteria than the budget for normal school. There are two different and contradictory goals here- the current dynamic where every gain for one is a loss for the other creates a ton of bad outcomes across the board.

deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
HelloNurse 5mo ago
[flagged]
- SpicyLemonZest 5mo ago
  I just don't see how it's possible to construct a classroom environment that can simultaneously serve an 8th grader who's ready to start learning algebra and an 8th grader with dyscalculia who struggles with basic arithmetic. (I'd be sympathetic to "let's try our best", except that people often propose to try our best by declaring that first kid isn't actually ready.)
  - actionfromafar 5mo ago
    But maybe they don't need to attend completely different schools, either.
    - SpicyLemonZest 5mo ago
      I agree, but I don't think that's what's being proposed. Many special ed programs today work on that principle: try to mainstream everyone in the classes they can be, run separate classes for the cases where that won't work, and everyone kinda understands that the participants in special ed aren't expected to be as successful in their educational pursuits.
  - MattGrommes 5mo ago
    I've always thought we should get rid of grades altogether. There should be curricula that builds upward but if a kid masters 4th grade math, they should move on up right then, not wait for half a year to join 5th grade or have to retake 4th grade. Obviously there are operational challenges with this but it's got to be better than having bored advanced kids, the shame of being "left behind", etc. The kid with dyscalculia should be able to move at their own pace.
- tracker1 5mo ago
  Do you want to get rid of "advanced" course options and push every student into the same bucket?
  - throwaway27448 5mo ago
    I'd be fine with that. It would provide an incentive to care about the bottom 75th percentile along with the spoiled rich kids
    - ajsnigrutin 5mo ago
      That's horrible. Smarter kids could get a better education, but they can't, because the teachers have to deal with illiterate kids that don't want to learn in the first place.
      - throwaway27448 5mo ago
        Maybe if we tried to educate all our kids instead of just the rich ones they wouldn't be illiterate
        ajsnigrutin 5mo ago
        Some kids are just stupid, and it doesn't matter if they're rich or poor, there's nothing you can do about it. No need to keep everyone at the stupidest kids level.
        throwaway27448 5mo ago
        Half of them are in AP classes. let's not pretend our methods of sorting kids into castes makes any sense. Let's be honest: this is about money and attention, and you want to grind the poor kids into dust
        ajsnigrutin 5mo ago
        It's not about money, you're the one who just thinks about money. Maybe, by your logic, if someone gave you $100 now, you'd become smarter and look wider... but probably not. Sorting into better highschools and worse ones, and better classes and worse was done even back in my times, in what used to be yugoslavia, with communism, red stars and a dictator. You want better kids to excell as much as they can, and you want the stupid kids to at least learn to read and write for their boring communist factory jobs for the next 40 years, even if they never get to learn how to solve differential eqations... if you keep the kids together, the stupid ones still won't be able to do basic math and there would be no time left over for the smarter ones to learn more. There was no correlation between money and stupidity of kids. Some kids are smart enough to become engineers, some can barely read, there's no need for them to be in the same classroom.
- Bratmon 5mo ago
  > What sad place do you come from? The American public education system
- bmn__ 5mo ago
  > What sad place do you come from? Do you have an actual argument? Shaming tactics are ineffective on HN. Reality check: in most countries, if you made a public demand of effectively depriving the disabled of the proper care they want and deserve, they would regard you as an inhumane monster, and the education ministry would refer you to state prosecution for violating the constitution.
  - throwaway27448 5mo ago
    > Shaming tactics are ineffective on HN. Regrettably. A place where money rules and brains die
- tash9 5mo ago
  As a parent of a kid that has special needs (at a minor level), there really is a separate set of skills needed to teach to these kids, as well as needing a better student teacher ratio. It made a huge difference for my kid.
- sieabahlpark 5mo ago
  [dead]
mswphd 5mo ago
"people with disabilities that make it impossible for them to succeed in normal school" is not a clearly divisible population from the regular student population though. Many (but not all) districts deal with disabilities via IEPs, or Individual Education Plans. They are tailored to particular students, and can be fairly common. They make things less of a clear binary than 2 separate school systems would really need. It's worse because there's been a trend among elite districts to push students to (fraudulently) get a diagnosed disability, so that they can get accommodations on tests and raise their chances to be admitted to an elite university. So, a proposal to partition the school system into a lesser system for students with disabilities would face pushback by the aforementioned elite district parents. While they are participating in a fraud (and so it would perhaps be morally fine for them to face repercussions for it), I imagine it would make implementing any such plan very difficult.
- ajsnigrutin 5mo ago
  Yep, the abuse is happening over here in slovenia too, you get some diagnosis for the kid, you get 50% more test-taking time, extra help in school, extra accomodations for other stuff, and in the end, your grade is worth the same (for grade averages and high school or college acceptance) as someone elses who finished in regular amount of time. No remarks anywhere saying "while student A and B have the same point average, student B had 50% more time on the test". So yeah, I kinda understand why parents get the diagnoses for their kids, but the system is unfair.
- procaryote 5mo ago
  Giving accomodations during a test kind of invalidates the test as a measurement of relative ability, or aptitude for further studies, so perhaps the solution is to stop doing that
smileson2 5mo ago
In my experience ( to be fair which was a while ago ) things like that just end up making things worse trapping people and leading to a lot of lashing out Honestly education really feels overthought and micromanaged already the whole setup is unhealthy

by Bratmon 5mo ago

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

HelloNurse 5mo ago

[flagged]

SpicyLemonZest 5mo ago
I just don't see how it's possible to construct a classroom environment that can simultaneously serve an 8th grader who's ready to start learning algebra and an 8th grader with dyscalculia who struggles with basic arithmetic. (I'd be sympathetic to "let's try our best", except that people often propose to try our best by declaring that first kid isn't actually ready.)
- actionfromafar 5mo ago
  But maybe they don't need to attend completely different schools, either.
  - SpicyLemonZest 5mo ago
    I agree, but I don't think that's what's being proposed. Many special ed programs today work on that principle: try to mainstream everyone in the classes they can be, run separate classes for the cases where that won't work, and everyone kinda understands that the participants in special ed aren't expected to be as successful in their educational pursuits.
- MattGrommes 5mo ago
  I've always thought we should get rid of grades altogether. There should be curricula that builds upward but if a kid masters 4th grade math, they should move on up right then, not wait for half a year to join 5th grade or have to retake 4th grade. Obviously there are operational challenges with this but it's got to be better than having bored advanced kids, the shame of being "left behind", etc. The kid with dyscalculia should be able to move at their own pace.
tracker1 5mo ago
Do you want to get rid of "advanced" course options and push every student into the same bucket?
- throwaway27448 5mo ago
  I'd be fine with that. It would provide an incentive to care about the bottom 75th percentile along with the spoiled rich kids
  - ajsnigrutin 5mo ago
    That's horrible. Smarter kids could get a better education, but they can't, because the teachers have to deal with illiterate kids that don't want to learn in the first place.
    - throwaway27448 5mo ago
      Maybe if we tried to educate all our kids instead of just the rich ones they wouldn't be illiterate
      - ajsnigrutin 5mo ago
        Some kids are just stupid, and it doesn't matter if they're rich or poor, there's nothing you can do about it. No need to keep everyone at the stupidest kids level.
        throwaway27448 5mo ago
        Half of them are in AP classes. let's not pretend our methods of sorting kids into castes makes any sense. Let's be honest: this is about money and attention, and you want to grind the poor kids into dust
        ajsnigrutin 5mo ago
        It's not about money, you're the one who just thinks about money. Maybe, by your logic, if someone gave you $100 now, you'd become smarter and look wider... but probably not. Sorting into better highschools and worse ones, and better classes and worse was done even back in my times, in what used to be yugoslavia, with communism, red stars and a dictator. You want better kids to excell as much as they can, and you want the stupid kids to at least learn to read and write for their boring communist factory jobs for the next 40 years, even if they never get to learn how to solve differential eqations... if you keep the kids together, the stupid ones still won't be able to do basic math and there would be no time left over for the smarter ones to learn more. There was no correlation between money and stupidity of kids. Some kids are smart enough to become engineers, some can barely read, there's no need for them to be in the same classroom.
Bratmon 5mo ago
> What sad place do you come from? The American public education system
bmn__ 5mo ago
> What sad place do you come from? Do you have an actual argument? Shaming tactics are ineffective on HN. Reality check: in most countries, if you made a public demand of effectively depriving the disabled of the proper care they want and deserve, they would regard you as an inhumane monster, and the education ministry would refer you to state prosecution for violating the constitution.
- throwaway27448 5mo ago
  > Shaming tactics are ineffective on HN. Regrettably. A place where money rules and brains die
tash9 5mo ago
As a parent of a kid that has special needs (at a minor level), there really is a separate set of skills needed to teach to these kids, as well as needing a better student teacher ratio. It made a huge difference for my kid.
sieabahlpark 5mo ago
[dead]

mswphd 5mo ago

"people with disabilities that make it impossible for them to succeed in normal school" is not a clearly divisible population from the regular student population though. Many (but not all) districts deal with disabilities via IEPs, or Individual Education Plans. They are tailored to particular students, and can be fairly common. They make things less of a clear binary than 2 separate school systems would really need. It's worse because there's been a trend among elite districts to push students to (fraudulently) get a diagnosed disability, so that they can get accommodations on tests and raise their chances to be admitted to an elite university. So, a proposal to partition the school system into a lesser system for students with disabilities would face pushback by the aforementioned elite district parents. While they are participating in a fraud (and so it would perhaps be morally fine for them to face repercussions for it), I imagine it would make implementing any such plan very difficult.

ajsnigrutin 5mo ago
Yep, the abuse is happening over here in slovenia too, you get some diagnosis for the kid, you get 50% more test-taking time, extra help in school, extra accomodations for other stuff, and in the end, your grade is worth the same (for grade averages and high school or college acceptance) as someone elses who finished in regular amount of time. No remarks anywhere saying "while student A and B have the same point average, student B had 50% more time on the test". So yeah, I kinda understand why parents get the diagnoses for their kids, but the system is unfair.
procaryote 5mo ago
Giving accomodations during a test kind of invalidates the test as a measurement of relative ability, or aptitude for further studies, so perhaps the solution is to stop doing that

smileson2 5mo ago

In my experience ( to be fair which was a while ago ) things like that just end up making things worse trapping people and leading to a lot of lashing out Honestly education really feels overthought and micromanaged already the whole setup is unhealthy