6 ms·

They have great leaps forward, we have wars on drugs. They aren't allowed to know when their troops fire on civilians in Tienamen square, we aren't allow to kno

by fleitz 14y ago

They have great leaps forward, we have wars on drugs. They aren't allowed to know when their troops fire on civilians in Tienamen square, we aren't allow to know when our troops fire on civilians in another country. They have celebrated massacres too... We might write books about St Valentines but many fewer are written about the trail of tears, mainly because St Valentines serves a political purpose where as the trail of tears does not. It's all "five year plans and new deals, wrapped in golden chains"

derleth 14y ago
Hm. If the US and China are morally the same, why are there so few Americans moving to China? I mean, they shouldn't be able to tell the difference in styles of government, am I right?
- paulgb 14y ago
  Moving isn't just a moral decision. You don't see many people moving to Antarctica, either. It's not because they're immoral down there.
- fleitz 14y ago
  If the Chinese can gain supremacy of world affairs while paying people more than Americans pay you will see the same flow from America to China. Certainly at this point in time by most objective measures America is more free, but it is heading in a direction of less free as China heads in a direction of more free. I believe that both trajectories will accelerate in the coming years for purely economic reasons, as America's fiscal position declines it will head towards more restrictive policies while the fiscal boon to China's populace causes more liberal policies to be explored. Like most organizations the Communist Party in China is more interested in preserving itself than whether a particular policy may be ideologically pure communism.
- olalonde 14y ago
  I'm a Canadian who has moved to China. One of the reasons I decided to move here was that everyday life feels more "free" in China (as long as you don't get involved in politics). However, I would never argue that the Chinese government is more transparent than any Western government and when it comes to political freedom/freedom of press, there is no comparison possible. On the other hand, I'd say that life in China is in many ways more compatible with libertarian values then Canada/US. If you are socialist/communist leaning, you probably won't like China. Here's a related comment I posted a few days ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4766206 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4766206
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  Top 10 worst argument I've ever seen. Think about it.
miked 14y ago
>> we aren't allow to know when our troops fire on civilians in another country. Except that most of the Entitled Class, from academia to journalists to Hollywood, has made an minor industry out of supporting totalitarian apologists such as yourself. A prominent example: the New York Times has refused to return the Pulitzer awarded to its pro-Stalinist reporter Walter Duranty, who lied so thoroughly about the Ukranian famine of the 1930's. Sometimes this apologizing is done directly (as above and as with the fawning support for the late Stalinist historian Eric Hobsbawm), but more often through moral equivalence arguments such as yours. My wife barely survived the Great Leap Forward. She spent years of her childhood hungry, only to come to this country and read people like you. Unlike you, she's very clear on the difference between Chinese Socialism and America's (semi-)free system.
- the_gipsy 14y ago
  The difference is that the USA has managed to take the killing out of their borders, but aren't any better. This lets them portrait themselves as innocent. Your quality of life is product of a market sustained by wars and extortion of other countries. The quality of life of the chinese that live in cities are sustained by the rice pickers of the countryside. THAT is the real difference.
  - olalonde 14y ago
    > Your quality of life is product of a market sustained by wars and extortion of other countries. Their cost of war probably outweighs by far any direct/indirect profit they can expect to get out of them. In addition, there are plenty of prosperous countries that are not involved in any wars. > The quality of life of the chinese that live in cities are sustained by the rice pickers of the countryside. THAT is the real difference. Fixed pie fallacy. Rich people are not rich because they exploit poor people.
    - the_gipsy 14y ago
      > Their cost of war probably outweighs by far any direct/indirect profit they can expect to get out of them. In addition, there are plenty of prosperous countries that are not involved in any wars. You are telling me that, for example, Iraq was invaded, for what exact reason, if not for their massive petroleum resources? Menace of WMD? C'mon. The "plenty of countries" you mention is a small fraction of the world, and are extorting and exploiting the third world. > Fixed pie fallacy. Rich people are not rich because they exploit poor people. Yeah, great call. Except I never said people in the city are rich because of the contryside. I said they are sustained, they need food and other goods produced by agriculture and such, which is only produced in the countryside. If your born on the countryside, they don't even let you move to the city.
olalonde 14y ago
I think it's time to take off your tinfoil hat. There's an order of magnitude difference between how transparent the Chinese and US governments are. > They have great leaps forward, we have wars on drugs. In China, you pretty much automatically get the death penalty for trafficking drugs. > we aren't allow to know when our troops fire on civilians in another country. Those things are openly reported in the news although I'm sure there are some cover ups by individual soldiers.
- Volpe 14y ago
  Like Apache Gunships gunning down innocent families trying to help the wounded (also gunned down by said gunship)? Yeah that was so 'openly' reported that the person who leaked it will probably spend the rest of his life in prison, and the organisation that reported is treated like a terrorist organisation... Such transparency. Unfortunately the only people who can truly measure transparency are the ones on the 'inside'... So comparing transparency is nigh impossible.

by fleitz 14y ago

derleth 14y ago

Hm. If the US and China are morally the same, why are there so few Americans moving to China? I mean, they shouldn't be able to tell the difference in styles of government, am I right?

paulgb 14y ago
Moving isn't just a moral decision. You don't see many people moving to Antarctica, either. It's not because they're immoral down there.
fleitz 14y ago
If the Chinese can gain supremacy of world affairs while paying people more than Americans pay you will see the same flow from America to China. Certainly at this point in time by most objective measures America is more free, but it is heading in a direction of less free as China heads in a direction of more free. I believe that both trajectories will accelerate in the coming years for purely economic reasons, as America's fiscal position declines it will head towards more restrictive policies while the fiscal boon to China's populace causes more liberal policies to be explored. Like most organizations the Communist Party in China is more interested in preserving itself than whether a particular policy may be ideologically pure communism.
olalonde 14y ago
I'm a Canadian who has moved to China. One of the reasons I decided to move here was that everyday life feels more "free" in China (as long as you don't get involved in politics). However, I would never argue that the Chinese government is more transparent than any Western government and when it comes to political freedom/freedom of press, there is no comparison possible. On the other hand, I'd say that life in China is in many ways more compatible with libertarian values then Canada/US. If you are socialist/communist leaning, you probably won't like China. Here's a related comment I posted a few days ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4766206 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4766206
flyinRyan 14y ago
Top 10 worst argument I've ever seen. Think about it.

miked 14y ago

>> we aren't allow to know when our troops fire on civilians in another country. Except that most of the Entitled Class, from academia to journalists to Hollywood, has made an minor industry out of supporting totalitarian apologists such as yourself. A prominent example: the New York Times has refused to return the Pulitzer awarded to its pro-Stalinist reporter Walter Duranty, who lied so thoroughly about the Ukranian famine of the 1930's. Sometimes this apologizing is done directly (as above and as with the fawning support for the late Stalinist historian Eric Hobsbawm), but more often through moral equivalence arguments such as yours. My wife barely survived the Great Leap Forward. She spent years of her childhood hungry, only to come to this country and read people like you. Unlike you, she's very clear on the difference between Chinese Socialism and America's (semi-)free system.

the_gipsy 14y ago
The difference is that the USA has managed to take the killing out of their borders, but aren't any better. This lets them portrait themselves as innocent. Your quality of life is product of a market sustained by wars and extortion of other countries. The quality of life of the chinese that live in cities are sustained by the rice pickers of the countryside. THAT is the real difference.
- olalonde 14y ago
  > Your quality of life is product of a market sustained by wars and extortion of other countries. Their cost of war probably outweighs by far any direct/indirect profit they can expect to get out of them. In addition, there are plenty of prosperous countries that are not involved in any wars. > The quality of life of the chinese that live in cities are sustained by the rice pickers of the countryside. THAT is the real difference. Fixed pie fallacy. Rich people are not rich because they exploit poor people.
  - the_gipsy 14y ago
    > Their cost of war probably outweighs by far any direct/indirect profit they can expect to get out of them. In addition, there are plenty of prosperous countries that are not involved in any wars. You are telling me that, for example, Iraq was invaded, for what exact reason, if not for their massive petroleum resources? Menace of WMD? C'mon. The "plenty of countries" you mention is a small fraction of the world, and are extorting and exploiting the third world. > Fixed pie fallacy. Rich people are not rich because they exploit poor people. Yeah, great call. Except I never said people in the city are rich because of the contryside. I said they are sustained, they need food and other goods produced by agriculture and such, which is only produced in the countryside. If your born on the countryside, they don't even let you move to the city.

olalonde 14y ago

I think it's time to take off your tinfoil hat. There's an order of magnitude difference between how transparent the Chinese and US governments are. > They have great leaps forward, we have wars on drugs. In China, you pretty much automatically get the death penalty for trafficking drugs. > we aren't allow to know when our troops fire on civilians in another country. Those things are openly reported in the news although I'm sure there are some cover ups by individual soldiers.

Volpe 14y ago
Like Apache Gunships gunning down innocent families trying to help the wounded (also gunned down by said gunship)? Yeah that was so 'openly' reported that the person who leaked it will probably spend the rest of his life in prison, and the organisation that reported is treated like a terrorist organisation... Such transparency. Unfortunately the only people who can truly measure transparency are the ones on the 'inside'... So comparing transparency is nigh impossible.