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> -Acceptance: "Just dont write UB." Just switch to a saner language. And before I get attacked for being a Rust shill, I meant Java :P The bar is so low it'

by Ygg2 5mo ago

> -Acceptance: "Just dont write UB." Just switch to a saner language. And before I get attacked for being a Rust shill, I meant Java :P The bar is so low it's floating near the center of the Earth.

p2detar 5mo ago
> Just switch to a saner language. And where's the fun in that?
- psychoslave 5mo ago
  That’s a taste matter. Being recalled that what is expressed is always depending on some technical details on every move, this is great when one is loving technical details and have all the leisure time to pay attention to them. This is going to be hell compared to sound defaults for someone willing to focus on delivering higher order feature/functionality which will most likely work just fine. Unedefined behaviour means "we couldn’t settle on a best default trade-off with fine-tuning as a given option so we let everyone in the unknown".
xeyownt 5mo ago
[flagged]
dns_snek 5mo ago
> And before I get attacked for being a Rust shill, I meant Java :P If all you want is C but less insane then the obvious answer here is Zig.
- simonask 5mo ago
  Zig is cool, but it is not even close to being ready for prime-time. It will be pre-1.0 for a while, and major breaking changes are still happening.
  - dns_snek 5mo ago
    Sure, maybe don't bet your entire company on mountains of Zig code just yet, but aside from the breaking changes it's been perfectly usable and suitable for every project I've ever wanted to work on.
- psychoslave 5mo ago
  If all somebody want is a programming language than C/C++ on these matter, there are plentiful options of the shelf to pick from. If all somebody want is a turn key replacement to C/C++ ecosystem, then there is nothing like that in the world that I’m aware of.
- AgentME 5mo ago
  If someone is switching from C because it's too easy to trigger undefined behavior, picking one of the few other not memory safe languages is missing the point.
  - dns_snek 5mo ago
    >> If all you want is C but less insane Zig has orders of magnitude less undefined behavior and orders of magnitude more memory safety than C. It's not a binary situation.
- pjmlp 5mo ago
  Object Pascal, with 40 years of experience, no need to wait for 1.0.
ErroneousBosh 5mo ago
Okay, so Java compiles to machine code now? Because the last time I looked it appeared to need some godawful slow bytecode interpreter that took up thousands of kilobytes of RAM.
- elch 5mo ago
  If you don't like JIT/JVM there's GraalVM Native Image. https://www.graalvm.org/latest/reference-manual/native-image/ https://www.graalvm.org/latest/reference-manual/native-image... In the past you could use e.g. Excelsior JET.
  - ErroneousBosh 5mo ago
    Great, can you fit it into 768 bytes of flash and 64 bytes of RAM?
    - crote 5mo ago
      It isn't 1970 anymore. You can get 32-bit ARM MCUs with tens of kilobytes of flash and multiple kilobytes of RAM for less than 10 cents. We've long since reached a point where chips are cheap enough to be disposable. They are included in paper transit tickets and price tags. There is basically no market left where your volume is small enough that custom application-specific ICs aren't an option, but your volume is large enough that the cost of a few additional kilobytes of memory isn't massively outweighed by the developer time saved. Want several megabytes of RAM and flash to run Java? That's the price of a cup of coffee!
      - ErroneousBosh 5mo ago
        > It isn't 1970 anymore. You can get 32-bit ARM MCUs with tens of kilobytes of flash and multiple kilobytes of RAM for less than 10 cents. Do they run at single-digit nA current draw?
        blacklion 5mo ago

by Ygg2 5mo ago

> -Acceptance: "Just dont write UB." Just switch to a saner language. And before I get attacked for being a Rust shill, I meant Java :P The bar is so low it's floating near the center of the Earth.

p2detar 5mo ago

> Just switch to a saner language. And where's the fun in that?

psychoslave 5mo ago
That’s a taste matter. Being recalled that what is expressed is always depending on some technical details on every move, this is great when one is loving technical details and have all the leisure time to pay attention to them. This is going to be hell compared to sound defaults for someone willing to focus on delivering higher order feature/functionality which will most likely work just fine. Unedefined behaviour means "we couldn’t settle on a best default trade-off with fine-tuning as a given option so we let everyone in the unknown".

xeyownt 5mo ago

[flagged]

dns_snek 5mo ago

> And before I get attacked for being a Rust shill, I meant Java :P If all you want is C but less insane then the obvious answer here is Zig.

simonask 5mo ago
Zig is cool, but it is not even close to being ready for prime-time. It will be pre-1.0 for a while, and major breaking changes are still happening.
- dns_snek 5mo ago
  Sure, maybe don't bet your entire company on mountains of Zig code just yet, but aside from the breaking changes it's been perfectly usable and suitable for every project I've ever wanted to work on.
psychoslave 5mo ago
If all somebody want is a programming language than C/C++ on these matter, there are plentiful options of the shelf to pick from. If all somebody want is a turn key replacement to C/C++ ecosystem, then there is nothing like that in the world that I’m aware of.
AgentME 5mo ago
If someone is switching from C because it's too easy to trigger undefined behavior, picking one of the few other not memory safe languages is missing the point.
- dns_snek 5mo ago
  >> If all you want is C but less insane Zig has orders of magnitude less undefined behavior and orders of magnitude more memory safety than C. It's not a binary situation.
pjmlp 5mo ago
Object Pascal, with 40 years of experience, no need to wait for 1.0.

ErroneousBosh 5mo ago

Okay, so Java compiles to machine code now? Because the last time I looked it appeared to need some godawful slow bytecode interpreter that took up thousands of kilobytes of RAM.

elch 5mo ago
If you don't like JIT/JVM there's GraalVM Native Image. https://www.graalvm.org/latest/reference-manual/native-image/ https://www.graalvm.org/latest/reference-manual/native-image... In the past you could use e.g. Excelsior JET.
- ErroneousBosh 5mo ago
  Great, can you fit it into 768 bytes of flash and 64 bytes of RAM?
  - crote 5mo ago
    It isn't 1970 anymore. You can get 32-bit ARM MCUs with tens of kilobytes of flash and multiple kilobytes of RAM for less than 10 cents. We've long since reached a point where chips are cheap enough to be disposable. They are included in paper transit tickets and price tags. There is basically no market left where your volume is small enough that custom application-specific ICs aren't an option, but your volume is large enough that the cost of a few additional kilobytes of memory isn't massively outweighed by the developer time saved. Want several megabytes of RAM and flash to run Java? That's the price of a cup of coffee!
    - ErroneousBosh 5mo ago
      > It isn't 1970 anymore. You can get 32-bit ARM MCUs with tens of kilobytes of flash and multiple kilobytes of RAM for less than 10 cents. Do they run at single-digit nA current draw?
      - blacklion 5mo ago