11 ms·

A Chinese Education, for a Price

62 points by slaven 14y ago

guylhem 14y ago
That is very sad and concerning. In my libertarian opinion, the competition start when the participants can make an informed choice - ie when they have a basic education. Basic education, teaching everyone to read and count, provides positive externalities too- so it's generally regarded as a good thing, and many government provide public basic education. (some push that even further, but let's not talk about that yet) An alternative is having companies providing basic education, and students enrolling with vouchers - ie opening competition on the education service market while fixing demand, to keep the positive externality. It is even better than the former option. But biasing the competition even before it is started, by having a single government-run education scheme, where bribery and cronyism replace healthy competition is so wrong!
- chimpinee 14y ago
  >Basic education, teaching everyone to read and count It's simply a fact that children, left to their own devices, teach themselves to read and to count. Why? Because whatever one is interested in, such knowledge is a gateway to learning more (and sharing). And learning is fun...
  - gizmo686 14y ago
    >It's simply a fact that children, left to their own devices, teach themselves to read and to count. How would one go about teaching one's self to read?
    - chimpinee 14y ago
      e.g. subtitles on movies, following instructions on computer games, googling stuff, reading books with parent (and looking again later without parent). The general case is: pursuing something cool for its own sake is enhanced by learning language and other gateway knowledge i.e. knowledge which aids wider learning. No teaching or curriculum or testing or extrinsic motivation is required. Help is available. I'm not advocating neglect. And there are the additional benefits of saving vast amounts of time and not damaging creativity.
      - gizmo686 14y ago
        Reading seems like one of those areas where being taught is far more efficient than figuring out for ones self, and even being taught is difficult. We could argue about the way in which we teach it, in which case I generally agree that our current model is far to extrinsic. In the particular case of reading, I am not sure how to avoid it, as (with my limited knowledge of neruology) I believe there is a massive advantage to learning the skill early in your brains development, so we would want to learn it before we nessasarily have the reasoning skills to know why we need to spends so much time learning it.
- dsr_ 14y ago
  A true libertarian must pay for all education. Vouchers? Vouchers are socialism. Pay in cash or whatever arrangements are mutually acceptable to both sides. The government's only acceptable role is to guarantee the execution of contracts. The market will guarantee efficiency!
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - guylhem 14y ago
    I agree with everything but your first phrase - a 5 years old kids can't pay for his education and can't enter in a legally binding contract. This breaks that line of thought. Is that a collectivist troll? In that event, let me warm your heart: your reasoning hold perfectly well if you replace education by healthcare.
pg 14y ago
It's ironic that China was in 587 the first to introduce competitive examinations for government positions.
- varjag 14y ago
  Any distribution system where human examiner is involved is prone to corruption. Doubt it worked that smooth back then either.
  - kinghajj 14y ago
    It's worse than that, the exams were pointless because they only tested knowledge of Confucianism.
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      They were useful as filters, if somewhat crude. The tests were partly responsible for advancements in Chinese civilization.
    - continuations 14y ago
      That's not any different from today's liberal arts degrees, which have nothing to do with the careers most people end up going into.
      - wisty 14y ago
        The difference being the Confucianists got jobs which they didn't deserve.
        dietrichepp 14y ago
        I know you're trying to say that testing for Confucianism is not the same as testing for how well you can do a government post, but these weren't worthless tests. 1) Passing old Chinese tests required literacy, something we want bureaucrats to have. This is a big chunk of what liberal arts degrees are about. (Calligraphy, too, was included in the test.) 2) Studying Confucianism meant that you at least had to think and respond about moral and ethical matters. Again, I'd rather have a bureaucrat who has thought about morality and ethics than one who hasn't. And according to Wikipedia, > The core of Confucianism is humanism, the belief that human beings are teachable, improvable and perfectible through personal and communal endeavour especially including self-cultivation and self-creation. 3) People with liberal arts degrees quite often take posts that are entirely unrelated to their field of study. Saying that "Confucianists got jobs which they didn't deserve" is just a pathetic jab at Chinese culture.
GabrielF00 14y ago
The Chinese education system unfortunately seems to promote dishonesty to children. Plagiarism is endemic and sometimes students are taught to plagiarize. There may be a decent reason - they think kids should model successful thinkers rather than come up with half-baked ideas themselves - but the result is that they are teaching kids to be dishonest. A classmate of mine from China turned in a rough draft of a paper that was copied from somewhere. The university gave her a standard punishment - she was forced to withdraw from the class and they put a "required to withdraw" mark on her transcript. She was unwilling to accept that she had done anything wrong and insisted that even though the teacher told her not to plagiarize they didn't tell her that she couldn't turn in a rough draft that had been copied. I've read that this dates back to the Chinese civil service exam system which is ancient by Western standards and has a long tradition of people coming up with clever ways to cheat.
- tsotha 14y ago
  The ancient Chinese civil service exam was, at least in part, designed to weed out independent thinkers - that's just not a valued commodity in a society based on Confucianism. So it doesn't surprise me plagiarism isn't viewed as a particularly serious offense even today.
- westiseast 14y ago
  I've seen this up close, and yes, true. By the time kids have left education, they've normally been exposed to (and probably practiced) all manner of cheating, whether it's faking a certificate, copying an essay, cheating in an exam or just straight up lieing. It's a vicious circle because it's valuable preparation for a society that often demands cheating (ie. if you don't cheat, you can't get anything) but it also produces people whose MO is "get anything you can by cheating, and just don't get caught". Like a society wholly made up of investment bankers :)
sonabinu 14y ago
This is terrible.
notaddicted 14y ago
I predict that education will continue to be a huge political and economic battleground globally for the foreseeable future. There are so many reasons: 1. Convention and desire for free and equal access to basic education is one of the cornerstones of the meritocracy, which prevents a purely economic solution. Even at the university level the government gives lenders extra recourse and the schools themselves provide aid. 2. Credentialism: access to well known schools is highly prized and self perpetuating. Even if a new school has an excellent staff it could take decades for graduates to go out in the world and make the school's reputation. 3. Access to peers: beyond pure credentialism and instructor quality is the caliber of the fellow students that can make a big difference. 4. GPA inflation. The students constantly try to exert pressure on the instructor to raise GPA. If the instructor gives in what happens is effectively GPA socialism ... if many students have a high GPA the true top students are no longer easily distinguished by GPA. Admissions officers then track the students' performance and incoming GPA versus their originating school ... a high GPA from that school is then worth less.
- chollida1 14y ago
  > Admissions officers then track the students' performance and incoming GPA versus their originating school ... a high GPA from that school is then worth less. This already happens. Waterloo University in Canada, recognized as one of the worlds top CS and Engineering Universities, has admitted tracking grades from each incoming high school and then comparing them to what each student gets at University. My admissions person admitted this to me in 2000. It's been going on for a while:)
  - cperciva 14y ago
    Almost all Ontario universities are doing this now. They share data too.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
gosukiwi 14y ago
China seems like a not very good place to live in... Everything you read about China confirms this idea even more.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  Bear in mind your sources of information. The US media is perennially down about all issues East Asian, and even moreso at a time when America feels threatened. This goes beyond China, if you turned the clock back 20 years it was Japan. This happens on the other side of the fence too, the Chinese media also covers disproportionately the failures of the US. The only takeaway here is to not get all of your information from one place - even if it is the New York Times.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    With the People's Daily or CCTV you'll get a much less biased view of china (joking). The system sucks and kudos to NYT for informing us, even if it has landed them on the wrong side of the great firewall. Ya, bad things happen in the states too but the NYT has no problem reporting on that! The western and Chinese press are just completely incomparable when it comes to bias. Wen is also right, this corruption will tear china apart if it doesn't end soon. That being said, china can be a nice place to live if you are a foreigner, have lots of moment to send your kids to international school, or are a local with lots of guanxi, or you don't have kids yet. You'll hardly realize corruption in your daily life outside of some key but rare activities (like buying property or dealing with local schools).
    - potatolicious 14y ago
      I think you and I are talking about completely different things. My post is in response to the notion that, given all the reporting you see in Western media re: China, the whole country looks like one gigantic shithole. This perception is not entirely surprising. Even when one gets all of their news from the NYT (which as far as as bias and truthfulness goes, is pretty damn good), there is a systemic bias in getting Eastern news from Western sources by mere virtue of the fact that you'll never hear the good with the bad - you'll just hear the bad. This isn't some evil conspiracy to slag China - it is this way for the same reason the 6 o'clock news is full of murders and robberies. Except, unlike the 6 o'clock news, you don't have real-life experience to temper the one-sidedness. If you get all of your world view from local news sources, you'll have a very skewed world view, even if all of the content you consume is factual.
gawker 14y ago
I'm interested to know how this compares to private/Ivy League schools. It seems to me that you would also have a price to pay in order to gain access to top education although certainly, in the Chinese case, it's more extreme since there are so many students vying for the same few spots at top universities that everyone is trying to gain some sort of edge.
kumarm 14y ago
We had similar issue in South India growing up. In my home where Christian Missionary schools were the popular schools when I was growing up, used to collect huge funds as donations (Though they are forced). Over the years, many Private non church based schools got started with better standards (Since there was money to be made). Most of the schools that were doing well in my generation are now closed or on their death bed. Its purely supply and demand. If schools can demand huge donations, it matter of time before more & better schools get started increasing the supply. India is a generation ahead of China in Corruption (Sad but true).
BogdanMm 14y ago
Communism, everybody is equal but some are more equal than others...
- yen223 14y ago
  To be fair, ever since China was inducted into the WTO, they have abandoned any pretense of running a communist system. Their government now seems to have taken the worst parts of capitalism, and mixed it with the worst parts of socialism.
tnuc 14y ago
Prices looks similar to the US system.
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  Surely you are trolling.
  - tnuc 14y ago
    I am not. The rates for an upper level school in the US are similar. As for admission to some Ivy League Universities, there have been allegations where donations have to be made. Call it corruption, capitalism or communism, still looks like money has to be paid to someone. Official or unofficial the rates are high.
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      Great. Now try that at a public university and you'll go to jail.
  - revelation 14y ago
    Even if its not downright corruption, there is a price for a good education in western countries, too. Highly educated parents will want a good education for their kids, they will move to where that can be had. Since high education is strongly correlated with high income, gentrification sets in, pushing out lower-income households. And thats just up to high-school; it's very clear that money can get you into any university, merits or not.
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      Granted, but the USA still has vastly more social mobility than china. I'm a bit disgusted that someone would even claim they are about the same. I had no advantages of highly educated parents nor much money, yet I was able to get through high school and into a good state university, then a decent phd program; money was paid but not that much, and definitely nothing to the public per-university schools I went to.
Shenglong 14y ago
This kind of thing doesn't just happen in education, and it's difficult to say how to really stop it. For example: My aunt had surgery about a year ago, and our family paid out quite a bit of money to everyone involved in her surgery. On top of the normal fees, we gave the surgeon, first assist, second assist, anesthesiologist, and even the secretary large sums of money. When my mother told me about this, I was shocked. "Why?" I asked. You'll have to understand that my family in China, while well off, has never participated in the cycles of alleged corruption. In fact, my uncle rejects so many bribes (gifts from business interactions) to the point that people have started leaving gifts anonymously at my grandmother's door. Yet, this wasn't about getting ahead in life. My mother told me, "we just want to make sure they have an incentive to do the best job they can." Honestly, I don't blame her. We didn't pay to skip a line, and we didn't pay for any organs (not that type of surgery anyway). We paid the people involved because we felt it would inspire them to do a better job. Is that wrong? Maybe. I don't really know anymore.
- Cieplak 14y ago
  Tipping, for example, is considered bribery in some societies, while in others the two concepts may not be interchangeable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery
  - derleth 14y ago
    > Tipping, for example, is considered bribery in some societies, while in others the two concepts may not be interchangeable. To clarify for our non-American readers: In the USA, and possibly Canada as well, waitstaff in restaurants are typically not paid a living wage (that is, they're paid even less than minimum wage, which isn't a living wage by itself anymore either) because both restaurants and the law expect them to make it up in tips. In some restaurants, the menu will say that an automatic gratuity (that is, a tip) of some specified percentage is added to the bill of parties of eight or more people. Typically, tips range from 15%-20% of the total bill, but there's no law governing how much people actually give. Merely bringing this up in the wrong crowd will reliably generate a massive argument. So, uh, keep that in mind, too.
- 14y ago
tokenadult 14y ago
I first lived in Taiwan under its former dictatorial regime. Even then, when the late Chiang Kai-shek's son Chiang Ching-kuo was president, the people of Taiwan were very proud of the incorruptibility of their university entrance system. They pointed out to me that Chiang Ching-kuo's son was not able to get into university. The university entrance exams there, then and now, are like taking a battery of multiple AP-level or IB-level tests over just a couple days in July. Students were strictly rank-ordered by their scores, and students rank-ordered their choices of university departments. Then a matching algorithm paired students and schools. (There are other details I am omitting here for simplicity.) The stringency and fairness of the university entrance system in Taiwan seemed to drive a lot of quality in curriculum standards and instruction in secondary schooling in Taiwan. (In those days, compulsory, taxpayer-subsidized schooling for all was provided through ninth grade. Many students went on to three grades of senior high after taking entrance exams for senior high schools. The best and most desired senior high schools were free to attend, having taxpayer subsidies, but of course were hard to get into.) In most countries, over time, democratization leads to ever-greater provision of higher education places, with ever-greater public subsidies. Today, the best universities in Taiwan still enroll very well prepared students, who take many of the core subjects using the same English-language textbooks used at the better univerisities in the States. Some of the lesser universities in Taiwan are barely above the level of typical colleges in the United States, but in general there is still good quality of secondary education there. Selection to higher levels of schooling that is based on achievement at earlier levels of schooling, rather than based on bribes or connections, makes a whole country better off.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  The situation in Taiwan isn't quite that rosy I don't think. The result of the examination system (which, FWIW, is not unique to Taiwan) is that high school kids routinely spend 12+ hours each day schooling. When they're not at public school, they're at private cram schools, and success in the exams certainly haven't been democratized for those who cannot afford the extra, private help to get ahead. So sure, it isn't corrupt, but the integrity of the examination system doesn't mean egalitarianism, not by a long shot.
ilaksh 14y ago
My theory is that the reason there are much higher levels of corruption in places like China, Mexico and other countries versus the US is because their so-called "economies" are even more broken and unequal than ours. The United States GNI at PPP (gross national income at purchasing power parity) is $48,890 whereas Mexico's is $15,120 and China's is $8,430. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(PPP)_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(PPP)_... So if corruption is related to relative GNI at PPP (obviously that isn't the only factor, but I think it is likely to be a significant one) then we can expect problems related to corruption to be about 3 times as bad in Mexico as they are in the US. Similarly we would expect China's problems to be about 6 times as bad.
jacques_chester 14y ago
The problem is that there is pent-up demand and an open market is not being allowed to operate. This always, everywhere, leads to what economists call a "parallel market" and what everyone else calls a "black market".

62 points by slaven 14y ago

That is very sad and concerning. In my libertarian opinion, the competition start when the participants can make an informed choice - ie when they have a basic education. Basic education, teaching everyone to read and count, provides positive externalities too- so it's generally regarded as a good thing, and many government provide public basic education. (some push that even further, but let's not talk about that yet) An alternative is having companies providing basic education, and students enrolling with vouchers - ie opening competition on the education service market while fixing demand, to keep the positive externality. It is even better than the former option. But biasing the competition even before it is started, by having a single government-run education scheme, where bribery and cronyism replace healthy competition is so wrong!

chimpinee 14y ago
>Basic education, teaching everyone to read and count It's simply a fact that children, left to their own devices, teach themselves to read and to count. Why? Because whatever one is interested in, such knowledge is a gateway to learning more (and sharing). And learning is fun...
- gizmo686 14y ago
  >It's simply a fact that children, left to their own devices, teach themselves to read and to count. How would one go about teaching one's self to read?
  - chimpinee 14y ago
    e.g. subtitles on movies, following instructions on computer games, googling stuff, reading books with parent (and looking again later without parent). The general case is: pursuing something cool for its own sake is enhanced by learning language and other gateway knowledge i.e. knowledge which aids wider learning. No teaching or curriculum or testing or extrinsic motivation is required. Help is available. I'm not advocating neglect. And there are the additional benefits of saving vast amounts of time and not damaging creativity.
    - gizmo686 14y ago
      Reading seems like one of those areas where being taught is far more efficient than figuring out for ones self, and even being taught is difficult. We could argue about the way in which we teach it, in which case I generally agree that our current model is far to extrinsic. In the particular case of reading, I am not sure how to avoid it, as (with my limited knowledge of neruology) I believe there is a massive advantage to learning the skill early in your brains development, so we would want to learn it before we nessasarily have the reasoning skills to know why we need to spends so much time learning it.
dsr_ 14y ago
A true libertarian must pay for all education. Vouchers? Vouchers are socialism. Pay in cash or whatever arrangements are mutually acceptable to both sides. The government's only acceptable role is to guarantee the execution of contracts. The market will guarantee efficiency!
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- guylhem 14y ago
  I agree with everything but your first phrase - a 5 years old kids can't pay for his education and can't enter in a legally binding contract. This breaks that line of thought. Is that a collectivist troll? In that event, let me warm your heart: your reasoning hold perfectly well if you replace education by healthcare.

pg 14y ago

It's ironic that China was in 587 the first to introduce competitive examinations for government positions.

varjag 14y ago
Any distribution system where human examiner is involved is prone to corruption. Doubt it worked that smooth back then either.
- kinghajj 14y ago
  It's worse than that, the exams were pointless because they only tested knowledge of Confucianism.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    They were useful as filters, if somewhat crude. The tests were partly responsible for advancements in Chinese civilization.
  - continuations 14y ago
    That's not any different from today's liberal arts degrees, which have nothing to do with the careers most people end up going into.
    - wisty 14y ago
      The difference being the Confucianists got jobs which they didn't deserve.
      - dietrichepp 14y ago
        I know you're trying to say that testing for Confucianism is not the same as testing for how well you can do a government post, but these weren't worthless tests. 1) Passing old Chinese tests required literacy, something we want bureaucrats to have. This is a big chunk of what liberal arts degrees are about. (Calligraphy, too, was included in the test.) 2) Studying Confucianism meant that you at least had to think and respond about moral and ethical matters. Again, I'd rather have a bureaucrat who has thought about morality and ethics than one who hasn't. And according to Wikipedia, > The core of Confucianism is humanism, the belief that human beings are teachable, improvable and perfectible through personal and communal endeavour especially including self-cultivation and self-creation. 3) People with liberal arts degrees quite often take posts that are entirely unrelated to their field of study. Saying that "Confucianists got jobs which they didn't deserve" is just a pathetic jab at Chinese culture.

GabrielF00 14y ago

The Chinese education system unfortunately seems to promote dishonesty to children. Plagiarism is endemic and sometimes students are taught to plagiarize. There may be a decent reason - they think kids should model successful thinkers rather than come up with half-baked ideas themselves - but the result is that they are teaching kids to be dishonest. A classmate of mine from China turned in a rough draft of a paper that was copied from somewhere. The university gave her a standard punishment - she was forced to withdraw from the class and they put a "required to withdraw" mark on her transcript. She was unwilling to accept that she had done anything wrong and insisted that even though the teacher told her not to plagiarize they didn't tell her that she couldn't turn in a rough draft that had been copied. I've read that this dates back to the Chinese civil service exam system which is ancient by Western standards and has a long tradition of people coming up with clever ways to cheat.

tsotha 14y ago
The ancient Chinese civil service exam was, at least in part, designed to weed out independent thinkers - that's just not a valued commodity in a society based on Confucianism. So it doesn't surprise me plagiarism isn't viewed as a particularly serious offense even today.
westiseast 14y ago
I've seen this up close, and yes, true. By the time kids have left education, they've normally been exposed to (and probably practiced) all manner of cheating, whether it's faking a certificate, copying an essay, cheating in an exam or just straight up lieing. It's a vicious circle because it's valuable preparation for a society that often demands cheating (ie. if you don't cheat, you can't get anything) but it also produces people whose MO is "get anything you can by cheating, and just don't get caught". Like a society wholly made up of investment bankers :)

sonabinu 14y ago

This is terrible.

notaddicted 14y ago

I predict that education will continue to be a huge political and economic battleground globally for the foreseeable future. There are so many reasons: 1. Convention and desire for free and equal access to basic education is one of the cornerstones of the meritocracy, which prevents a purely economic solution. Even at the university level the government gives lenders extra recourse and the schools themselves provide aid. 2. Credentialism: access to well known schools is highly prized and self perpetuating. Even if a new school has an excellent staff it could take decades for graduates to go out in the world and make the school's reputation. 3. Access to peers: beyond pure credentialism and instructor quality is the caliber of the fellow students that can make a big difference. 4. GPA inflation. The students constantly try to exert pressure on the instructor to raise GPA. If the instructor gives in what happens is effectively GPA socialism ... if many students have a high GPA the true top students are no longer easily distinguished by GPA. Admissions officers then track the students' performance and incoming GPA versus their originating school ... a high GPA from that school is then worth less.

chollida1 14y ago
> Admissions officers then track the students' performance and incoming GPA versus their originating school ... a high GPA from that school is then worth less. This already happens. Waterloo University in Canada, recognized as one of the worlds top CS and Engineering Universities, has admitted tracking grades from each incoming high school and then comparing them to what each student gets at University. My admissions person admitted this to me in 2000. It's been going on for a while:)
- cperciva 14y ago
  Almost all Ontario universities are doing this now. They share data too.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

gosukiwi 14y ago

China seems like a not very good place to live in... Everything you read about China confirms this idea even more.

potatolicious 14y ago
Bear in mind your sources of information. The US media is perennially down about all issues East Asian, and even moreso at a time when America feels threatened. This goes beyond China, if you turned the clock back 20 years it was Japan. This happens on the other side of the fence too, the Chinese media also covers disproportionately the failures of the US. The only takeaway here is to not get all of your information from one place - even if it is the New York Times.
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  With the People's Daily or CCTV you'll get a much less biased view of china (joking). The system sucks and kudos to NYT for informing us, even if it has landed them on the wrong side of the great firewall. Ya, bad things happen in the states too but the NYT has no problem reporting on that! The western and Chinese press are just completely incomparable when it comes to bias. Wen is also right, this corruption will tear china apart if it doesn't end soon. That being said, china can be a nice place to live if you are a foreigner, have lots of moment to send your kids to international school, or are a local with lots of guanxi, or you don't have kids yet. You'll hardly realize corruption in your daily life outside of some key but rare activities (like buying property or dealing with local schools).
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    I think you and I are talking about completely different things. My post is in response to the notion that, given all the reporting you see in Western media re: China, the whole country looks like one gigantic shithole. This perception is not entirely surprising. Even when one gets all of their news from the NYT (which as far as as bias and truthfulness goes, is pretty damn good), there is a systemic bias in getting Eastern news from Western sources by mere virtue of the fact that you'll never hear the good with the bad - you'll just hear the bad. This isn't some evil conspiracy to slag China - it is this way for the same reason the 6 o'clock news is full of murders and robberies. Except, unlike the 6 o'clock news, you don't have real-life experience to temper the one-sidedness. If you get all of your world view from local news sources, you'll have a very skewed world view, even if all of the content you consume is factual.

gawker 14y ago

I'm interested to know how this compares to private/Ivy League schools. It seems to me that you would also have a price to pay in order to gain access to top education although certainly, in the Chinese case, it's more extreme since there are so many students vying for the same few spots at top universities that everyone is trying to gain some sort of edge.

kumarm 14y ago

We had similar issue in South India growing up. In my home where Christian Missionary schools were the popular schools when I was growing up, used to collect huge funds as donations (Though they are forced). Over the years, many Private non church based schools got started with better standards (Since there was money to be made). Most of the schools that were doing well in my generation are now closed or on their death bed. Its purely supply and demand. If schools can demand huge donations, it matter of time before more & better schools get started increasing the supply. India is a generation ahead of China in Corruption (Sad but true).

BogdanMm 14y ago

Communism, everybody is equal but some are more equal than others...

yen223 14y ago
To be fair, ever since China was inducted into the WTO, they have abandoned any pretense of running a communist system. Their government now seems to have taken the worst parts of capitalism, and mixed it with the worst parts of socialism.

tnuc 14y ago

Prices looks similar to the US system.

seanmcdirmid 14y ago
Surely you are trolling.
- tnuc 14y ago
  I am not. The rates for an upper level school in the US are similar. As for admission to some Ivy League Universities, there have been allegations where donations have to be made. Call it corruption, capitalism or communism, still looks like money has to be paid to someone. Official or unofficial the rates are high.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    Great. Now try that at a public university and you'll go to jail.
- revelation 14y ago
  Even if its not downright corruption, there is a price for a good education in western countries, too. Highly educated parents will want a good education for their kids, they will move to where that can be had. Since high education is strongly correlated with high income, gentrification sets in, pushing out lower-income households. And thats just up to high-school; it's very clear that money can get you into any university, merits or not.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    Granted, but the USA still has vastly more social mobility than china. I'm a bit disgusted that someone would even claim they are about the same. I had no advantages of highly educated parents nor much money, yet I was able to get through high school and into a good state university, then a decent phd program; money was paid but not that much, and definitely nothing to the public per-university schools I went to.

Shenglong 14y ago

This kind of thing doesn't just happen in education, and it's difficult to say how to really stop it. For example: My aunt had surgery about a year ago, and our family paid out quite a bit of money to everyone involved in her surgery. On top of the normal fees, we gave the surgeon, first assist, second assist, anesthesiologist, and even the secretary large sums of money. When my mother told me about this, I was shocked. "Why?" I asked. You'll have to understand that my family in China, while well off, has never participated in the cycles of alleged corruption. In fact, my uncle rejects so many bribes (gifts from business interactions) to the point that people have started leaving gifts anonymously at my grandmother's door. Yet, this wasn't about getting ahead in life. My mother told me, "we just want to make sure they have an incentive to do the best job they can." Honestly, I don't blame her. We didn't pay to skip a line, and we didn't pay for any organs (not that type of surgery anyway). We paid the people involved because we felt it would inspire them to do a better job. Is that wrong? Maybe. I don't really know anymore.

Cieplak 14y ago
Tipping, for example, is considered bribery in some societies, while in others the two concepts may not be interchangeable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery
- derleth 14y ago
  > Tipping, for example, is considered bribery in some societies, while in others the two concepts may not be interchangeable. To clarify for our non-American readers: In the USA, and possibly Canada as well, waitstaff in restaurants are typically not paid a living wage (that is, they're paid even less than minimum wage, which isn't a living wage by itself anymore either) because both restaurants and the law expect them to make it up in tips. In some restaurants, the menu will say that an automatic gratuity (that is, a tip) of some specified percentage is added to the bill of parties of eight or more people. Typically, tips range from 15%-20% of the total bill, but there's no law governing how much people actually give. Merely bringing this up in the wrong crowd will reliably generate a massive argument. So, uh, keep that in mind, too.
14y ago

tokenadult 14y ago

I first lived in Taiwan under its former dictatorial regime. Even then, when the late Chiang Kai-shek's son Chiang Ching-kuo was president, the people of Taiwan were very proud of the incorruptibility of their university entrance system. They pointed out to me that Chiang Ching-kuo's son was not able to get into university. The university entrance exams there, then and now, are like taking a battery of multiple AP-level or IB-level tests over just a couple days in July. Students were strictly rank-ordered by their scores, and students rank-ordered their choices of university departments. Then a matching algorithm paired students and schools. (There are other details I am omitting here for simplicity.) The stringency and fairness of the university entrance system in Taiwan seemed to drive a lot of quality in curriculum standards and instruction in secondary schooling in Taiwan. (In those days, compulsory, taxpayer-subsidized schooling for all was provided through ninth grade. Many students went on to three grades of senior high after taking entrance exams for senior high schools. The best and most desired senior high schools were free to attend, having taxpayer subsidies, but of course were hard to get into.) In most countries, over time, democratization leads to ever-greater provision of higher education places, with ever-greater public subsidies. Today, the best universities in Taiwan still enroll very well prepared students, who take many of the core subjects using the same English-language textbooks used at the better univerisities in the States. Some of the lesser universities in Taiwan are barely above the level of typical colleges in the United States, but in general there is still good quality of secondary education there. Selection to higher levels of schooling that is based on achievement at earlier levels of schooling, rather than based on bribes or connections, makes a whole country better off.

potatolicious 14y ago
The situation in Taiwan isn't quite that rosy I don't think. The result of the examination system (which, FWIW, is not unique to Taiwan) is that high school kids routinely spend 12+ hours each day schooling. When they're not at public school, they're at private cram schools, and success in the exams certainly haven't been democratized for those who cannot afford the extra, private help to get ahead. So sure, it isn't corrupt, but the integrity of the examination system doesn't mean egalitarianism, not by a long shot.

ilaksh 14y ago

My theory is that the reason there are much higher levels of corruption in places like China, Mexico and other countries versus the US is because their so-called "economies" are even more broken and unequal than ours. The United States GNI at PPP (gross national income at purchasing power parity) is $48,890 whereas Mexico's is $15,120 and China's is $8,430. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(PPP)_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(PPP)_... So if corruption is related to relative GNI at PPP (obviously that isn't the only factor, but I think it is likely to be a significant one) then we can expect problems related to corruption to be about 3 times as bad in Mexico as they are in the US. Similarly we would expect China's problems to be about 6 times as bad.

jacques_chester 14y ago

The problem is that there is pent-up demand and an open market is not being allowed to operate. This always, everywhere, leads to what economists call a "parallel market" and what everyone else calls a "black market".