5 ms·

Wonderful teachers that give unreliable information with total confidence?

by daymanstep 5mo ago

k__ 5mo ago
Anti-intellectualism is at it again, hu?
Bawoosette 5mo ago
To be fair, that was much of my actual experience with human professors in university.
- IshKebab 5mo ago
  Yeah one of my teachers was able to identify which high school I had come from due to something I had been mistaught.
- renticulous 5mo ago
  Veritasium proved that in a difficult challenge. A Physics Prof Bet Me $10,000 I'm Wrong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCsgoLc_fzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCsgoLc_fzI
victorbjorklund 5mo ago
Like humans.
- CoastalCoder 5mo ago
  I think we should go a little deeper on this idea. We can all agree that both human "experts" and LLMs can sometimes be right, and sometimes be confidently wrong. But that doesn't imply that they're equally fit for purpose. It just means that we can't use that simple shortcut to conclude that one is inferior to the other. So where do we go from here?
  - oofbey 5mo ago
    I’ve always thought of the definition of “expert” as reliably knowing the difference between what is known, what is speculated but unproven, and what is unknown. People claim expertise in all sorts of things that they aren’t experts in. But true experts should not be wrong. They should qualify levels of certainty. This definition certainly works in the sciences.
    - victorbjorklund 5mo ago
      In reality few humans are true experts on every topic they open their mouth on. A high school teacher in science is hardly a true expert in every single thing they teach.
entropyneur 5mo ago
I had human teachers who did that in middle/high school. Took me many years to pick out all the hallucinated bits of "knowledge". I don't think the current models are any less reliable that what we currently have on average.
- dguest 5mo ago
  I'll always remember my middle school science teaching telling us that nuclear fusion violates conservation of mass because the 2 protons in a pair of hydrogen nuclei combine to make helium with 4 nucleons. It's not true, but that's not the point. But he was a great teacher anyway. He was engaging and kept the kids in line and learning. I eventually learned the truth, and most of my classmates forgot about it. Teaching, like flying a plane or driving a train, might become more about keeping watch over a small group of people and ensuring that things don't go off the rails, and that's fine.
  - 3form 5mo ago
    This one feels less sinister than some other things at least to me, personally. You can reasonably doubt that the conservation of mass is violated and find out the truth based on that. But understanding more complex biology or historical context for some things? Granted, many of these things seem to be low stakes, but I'm sure there are some there are not (sex ed comes to mind).
    - zem 5mo ago
      to be fair, fusion does violate conservation of mass, just not the way the teacher explained it. the loss of mass is where the energy comes from.
      - 3form 5mo ago
        Yes, together with mass-energy equivalency it would form a coherent argument, and then also a correct one - but the thing is that if incomplete, it still might sound funky enough to you to research it if you care. I think it helps that it's a very narrow field to look at, compared to fuzzy and big-picture view of social studies, for example. So much room to be confidently wrong... And sadly I can't think of a solution, LLMs or not.
p-e-w 5mo ago
The amount of bullshit and blatant lies I’ve heard from my human teachers dwarfs the hallucinations produced by today’s LLMs.
Levitz 5mo ago
Off the top of my head: DOMS being little crystals in muscles, tongue having separate areas for each type of taste, food pyramid, blue blood in the veins, the appendix being useless, body temperature doesn't change disregarding whether it's exposed to cold or to heat, and a whole lot of stuff related to politics and history I'd rather just omit (I don't live in the US). All things I learned in school which were wrong information. Not to mention, the current state of education is far worse. I don't think most realize how low the bar is.
- akdev1l 5mo ago
  My biology teacher in school once tried to teach us that winds created by God. Not like spiritually or something but that God literally made the wind I guess. My “earth sciences” teacher also once tried to argue with me against the universal law of gravitation. (no, she was not referring to Special/General Relativity. She didn’t agree two objects in a vacuum fall at the same speed regardless of mass.
- Sesse__ 5mo ago
  One of my teachers in elementary school told us that people in the Arabic world wore long garments because as Muslims, they believed the Messiah would be born by a male, and thus, it was important to have something to catch the baby as it unexpectedly popped out one day and would otherwise hit the ground. She only really had two faults: She wasn't very bright, and she wasn't fond of children. I had her in about 80% of all my classes for six years. High school was a relief.
  - samatman 5mo ago
    It may interest you to know that this was a misremembered truth. It is widely believed by their neighbors, that the _Druze_ wear baggy pants because they believe that the Mahdi will be born to a male, and the pants will catch the baby etc. I say "widely believed", the Druze are famously secretive and will not confirm or deny most things about their religion. The 'elect' Druze men do wear distinctive baggy trousers with the crotch down around the knees: no one else does. The Druze are people in the Arabic world: moreover, they are Arabs. They began as an Isma'ili sect, but do not identify as Muslim: they call themselves al-Muwaḥḥidūn, meaning 'the monotheists', or 'unitarians'. Much closer to correct than not!
autoexec 5mo ago
They'll also encourage and praise you even when you're heading down the wrong path until you think you've uncovered the secret of the universe or proven that established science was wrong this whole time when really you've just been bullshitting with an engagement bot.
- CamperBob2 5mo ago
  No, they don't really do that anymore, if you use the latest models with reasoning enabled. Like almost everything else about LLMs, this unfortunate tendency has gotten a lot better recently, which you might not realize if you gave up after getting some lame answers or bogus glazing on the free ChatGPT page a couple of years ago.

Wonderful teachers that give unreliable information with total confidence?

k__ 5mo ago

Anti-intellectualism is at it again, hu?

Bawoosette 5mo ago

To be fair, that was much of my actual experience with human professors in university.

IshKebab 5mo ago
Yeah one of my teachers was able to identify which high school I had come from due to something I had been mistaught.
renticulous 5mo ago
Veritasium proved that in a difficult challenge. A Physics Prof Bet Me $10,000 I'm Wrong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCsgoLc_fzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCsgoLc_fzI

victorbjorklund 5mo ago

Like humans.

CoastalCoder 5mo ago
I think we should go a little deeper on this idea. We can all agree that both human "experts" and LLMs can sometimes be right, and sometimes be confidently wrong. But that doesn't imply that they're equally fit for purpose. It just means that we can't use that simple shortcut to conclude that one is inferior to the other. So where do we go from here?
- oofbey 5mo ago
  I’ve always thought of the definition of “expert” as reliably knowing the difference between what is known, what is speculated but unproven, and what is unknown. People claim expertise in all sorts of things that they aren’t experts in. But true experts should not be wrong. They should qualify levels of certainty. This definition certainly works in the sciences.
  - victorbjorklund 5mo ago
    In reality few humans are true experts on every topic they open their mouth on. A high school teacher in science is hardly a true expert in every single thing they teach.

entropyneur 5mo ago

I had human teachers who did that in middle/high school. Took me many years to pick out all the hallucinated bits of "knowledge". I don't think the current models are any less reliable that what we currently have on average.

dguest 5mo ago
I'll always remember my middle school science teaching telling us that nuclear fusion violates conservation of mass because the 2 protons in a pair of hydrogen nuclei combine to make helium with 4 nucleons. It's not true, but that's not the point. But he was a great teacher anyway. He was engaging and kept the kids in line and learning. I eventually learned the truth, and most of my classmates forgot about it. Teaching, like flying a plane or driving a train, might become more about keeping watch over a small group of people and ensuring that things don't go off the rails, and that's fine.
- 3form 5mo ago
  This one feels less sinister than some other things at least to me, personally. You can reasonably doubt that the conservation of mass is violated and find out the truth based on that. But understanding more complex biology or historical context for some things? Granted, many of these things seem to be low stakes, but I'm sure there are some there are not (sex ed comes to mind).
  - zem 5mo ago
    to be fair, fusion does violate conservation of mass, just not the way the teacher explained it. the loss of mass is where the energy comes from.
    - 3form 5mo ago
      Yes, together with mass-energy equivalency it would form a coherent argument, and then also a correct one - but the thing is that if incomplete, it still might sound funky enough to you to research it if you care. I think it helps that it's a very narrow field to look at, compared to fuzzy and big-picture view of social studies, for example. So much room to be confidently wrong... And sadly I can't think of a solution, LLMs or not.

p-e-w 5mo ago

The amount of bullshit and blatant lies I’ve heard from my human teachers dwarfs the hallucinations produced by today’s LLMs.

Levitz 5mo ago

Off the top of my head: DOMS being little crystals in muscles, tongue having separate areas for each type of taste, food pyramid, blue blood in the veins, the appendix being useless, body temperature doesn't change disregarding whether it's exposed to cold or to heat, and a whole lot of stuff related to politics and history I'd rather just omit (I don't live in the US). All things I learned in school which were wrong information. Not to mention, the current state of education is far worse. I don't think most realize how low the bar is.

akdev1l 5mo ago
My biology teacher in school once tried to teach us that winds created by God. Not like spiritually or something but that God literally made the wind I guess. My “earth sciences” teacher also once tried to argue with me against the universal law of gravitation. (no, she was not referring to Special/General Relativity. She didn’t agree two objects in a vacuum fall at the same speed regardless of mass.
Sesse__ 5mo ago
One of my teachers in elementary school told us that people in the Arabic world wore long garments because as Muslims, they believed the Messiah would be born by a male, and thus, it was important to have something to catch the baby as it unexpectedly popped out one day and would otherwise hit the ground. She only really had two faults: She wasn't very bright, and she wasn't fond of children. I had her in about 80% of all my classes for six years. High school was a relief.
- samatman 5mo ago
  It may interest you to know that this was a misremembered truth. It is widely believed by their neighbors, that the _Druze_ wear baggy pants because they believe that the Mahdi will be born to a male, and the pants will catch the baby etc. I say "widely believed", the Druze are famously secretive and will not confirm or deny most things about their religion. The 'elect' Druze men do wear distinctive baggy trousers with the crotch down around the knees: no one else does. The Druze are people in the Arabic world: moreover, they are Arabs. They began as an Isma'ili sect, but do not identify as Muslim: they call themselves al-Muwaḥḥidūn, meaning 'the monotheists', or 'unitarians'. Much closer to correct than not!

autoexec 5mo ago

They'll also encourage and praise you even when you're heading down the wrong path until you think you've uncovered the secret of the universe or proven that established science was wrong this whole time when really you've just been bullshitting with an engagement bot.

CamperBob2 5mo ago
No, they don't really do that anymore, if you use the latest models with reasoning enabled. Like almost everything else about LLMs, this unfortunate tendency has gotten a lot better recently, which you might not realize if you gave up after getting some lame answers or bogus glazing on the free ChatGPT page a couple of years ago.