5 ms·

" only available through approved installation centers." This won't sell; people will just buy a crashed EV for 1/10th the cost and salvage the motor and batte

by 1970-01-01 6mo ago

" only available through approved installation centers." This won't sell; people will just buy a crashed EV for 1/10th the cost and salvage the motor and battery. This is more of an insult than a product. It reeks of "you're not qualified to work on our premium electrons until you pay $10k and pass our one-day eCourse"

dotancohen 6mo ago
As it should be. I'd rather that reality than the EV conversion hobby be plagued and slandered with "this guy bought official parts and his baby perished in the resulting home fire".
- randusername 6mo ago
  Disagree, premium parts should have premium fail-safes and be robust to reasonably foreseeable misuse. In so many markets manufacturers are antagonistic to repair and customization; project cars remains this wonderful little niche where DIY excellence is enabled and encouraged. That shouldn't end with ICEs. We have hobbyist mechanics out here taking their engine blocks to the machinist, rebuilding hydraulic automatic transmissions on the workbench, not to mention safely handling literal buckets of combustibles. They'll be fine.
  - james_stin 6mo ago
    I think there's a reasonable concern about supply chain here given the complexity of the components. The hobbyist ICE market has had generations of experience, and the risks are better known then with EV power trains, and it's much more difficult to inspect components that are battery or chip-controller based over a standard ICE engine. I'm sure there's also a profit motive, but I also think there's a strong concern around reputational damage and a desire to control the entire pipeline to make sure that doesn't happen.
    - Tanoc 6mo ago
      The valvetrain and fuel injection systems of any given internal combustion engine vehicle made since the 1980s are far more complex than the voltage controller of an EV drivetrain. The difference is that those mechanical components are in a system that can have multiple minor fail states before ceasing to function and contain far less energy than what's coursing through the voltage controller. The reason EVs are more dangerous currently is because they haven't gone through the decades of regulations and testing needed to provide multiple diagnostics and failsafes the way mechanical components have. That's easily fixed by just giving them a few years and letting people develop folk knowledge they way they did with internal combustion engines. Even now hobbyists are developing new ways to test for unbalanced cells, impedance hotspots, and integrating new monitoring systems that don't require costly proprietary sensors. Most of this limitation from Ford and GM about their EV drivetrains is because they want control over deployment for monitoring, and so they can cover their asses legally if something like a manufacturing defect becomes widespread.
  - dotancohen 6mo ago
    Reasonably foreseeable misuse is a fallacy. The only really possible way to know how users are going to misuse a product, is to get it in the hands of the users. How does the saying go? Design something to be idiot-proof and nature will present you with a better idiot.
- IshKebab 6mo ago
  It's shitty to just say "you might not do it safely so you can't do it at all". We don't do that when building houses for example - anyone can build a house; you just need to get safety inspections at certain points in the build process. Why not do the same for cars?
oompydoompy74 6mo ago
I was excited until I read this and the price. I would love to try and drop this into a 90s Miata for a fun garage project.
- yourusername 6mo ago
  The battery weight alone exceeds the load capacity of a 90s miata by 2x. And i wonder how well it would handle with the 1000 lbs of battery under the hood or in the trunk, my guess is not very well.
  - chrisBob 6mo ago
    The battery size really surprised me. I can see this working well with 1/3 the battery, but 1000lbs is crazy. The lighter motor and removal of the fuel tank will help a little, but replacing a heavy engine in the front with a heavier battery in the back can't possibly work.
    - idiotsecant 6mo ago
      How heavy do you think the average medium sized EV battery is? Batteries are heavy.
  - rconti 6mo ago
    IIRC my NB (2002) Miata had a load capacity of 340lbs. I pretty much exceeded it any time I had a passenger, let alone anything in the trunk!
  - oompydoompy74 6mo ago
    Yeah I uh… didn’t really think about that haha. Maybe with some frame reinforcements, heavy duty coilovers, and performance brakes?
- MoonWalk 6mo ago
  This, the price, and the power level. Meanwhile, Ford has been selling the Mach-E motor as a crate motor for years; but it's useless, because they sell nothing else for it. No battery pack, no controller, no regenerative brakes. Pretty much a PR sham. Why bother? I have a Mustang with a half-disassembled engine that needs major work, so I thought hey this might be cool. Nope.
rascul 6mo ago
Some of that might be to satisfy the EPA since it's technically against their rules to do engine swaps in many cases or delete or modify emissions devices.
- Tostino 6mo ago
  Then why are they able to provide a 500hp gas crate motor?
  - rascul 6mo ago
    There's probably a disclaimer that it's not for street vehicles. Note in the eCrate link it's explicitly claimed to be legal when done correctly.
    - rascul 6mo ago
      More information: What I was recalling is the EPA's Engine Switching Fact Sheet from 1991. https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/documents/engswitch_0.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/documents/engswitch_... I learned today that it was replaced in 2020 by the EPA Tampering Policy. This one doesn't seem to focus so much on engine swaps but on the emissions devices themselves. https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/epatamperingpolicy-enforcementpolicyonvehicleandenginetampering.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ep...
  - Tanoc 6mo ago
    When you do that you're supposed to classify the vehicle as an OHV, or off-highway vehicle. Problem is a lot of states don't actually do emissions testing, others don't do vehicle status inspection, and some don't do either. You ever wonder why Indiana has such a huge number of drag racing cars in the Prostock and Superstock classes? There's no emissions testing outside the capitol.
    - 83 6mo ago
      >> You ever wonder why Indiana has such a huge number of drag racing cars in the Prostock and Superstock classes? I can honestly say I've never wondered that. It's so oddly specific lol.
giantg2 6mo ago
Big brand crate engines have always been obscene. Almost every LS swap you see was someone pulling a motor out of a junker.
- nubinetwork 6mo ago
  Only because they will charge a premium if you don't return the "old core". Nobody wants the hassle, or the upfront cost for not having one to give them.
  - giantg2 6mo ago
    Even with a core, their "performance" engines have still been absurdly expensive.
idiotsecant 6mo ago
You're underestimating the complexity of doing what you're describing. There is a market for a $10k package where the communications busses are documented, everything has square plumb mounting, no fabrication is required, etc. I have done several EV conversions using parts as you describe and there is a healthy amount of reverse engineering, defeating or replicating functions you didnt think of until it doesnt work right with modules that are expecting other modules to exist on the bus that no longer exist, and a million other things. That's fine for a personal hobby project, but that is a very, very, very small project. The target for this kind of product is conversion shops that want to be able to offer customers tight turnarounds on vanity EV conversions with warrantees. 10k is pretty minor on that kind of project, the lead time and integration complexity is way more important.

dotancohen 6mo ago

As it should be. I'd rather that reality than the EV conversion hobby be plagued and slandered with "this guy bought official parts and his baby perished in the resulting home fire".

randusername 6mo ago
Disagree, premium parts should have premium fail-safes and be robust to reasonably foreseeable misuse. In so many markets manufacturers are antagonistic to repair and customization; project cars remains this wonderful little niche where DIY excellence is enabled and encouraged. That shouldn't end with ICEs. We have hobbyist mechanics out here taking their engine blocks to the machinist, rebuilding hydraulic automatic transmissions on the workbench, not to mention safely handling literal buckets of combustibles. They'll be fine.
- james_stin 6mo ago
  I think there's a reasonable concern about supply chain here given the complexity of the components. The hobbyist ICE market has had generations of experience, and the risks are better known then with EV power trains, and it's much more difficult to inspect components that are battery or chip-controller based over a standard ICE engine. I'm sure there's also a profit motive, but I also think there's a strong concern around reputational damage and a desire to control the entire pipeline to make sure that doesn't happen.
  - Tanoc 6mo ago
    The valvetrain and fuel injection systems of any given internal combustion engine vehicle made since the 1980s are far more complex than the voltage controller of an EV drivetrain. The difference is that those mechanical components are in a system that can have multiple minor fail states before ceasing to function and contain far less energy than what's coursing through the voltage controller. The reason EVs are more dangerous currently is because they haven't gone through the decades of regulations and testing needed to provide multiple diagnostics and failsafes the way mechanical components have. That's easily fixed by just giving them a few years and letting people develop folk knowledge they way they did with internal combustion engines. Even now hobbyists are developing new ways to test for unbalanced cells, impedance hotspots, and integrating new monitoring systems that don't require costly proprietary sensors. Most of this limitation from Ford and GM about their EV drivetrains is because they want control over deployment for monitoring, and so they can cover their asses legally if something like a manufacturing defect becomes widespread.
- dotancohen 6mo ago
  Reasonably foreseeable misuse is a fallacy. The only really possible way to know how users are going to misuse a product, is to get it in the hands of the users. How does the saying go? Design something to be idiot-proof and nature will present you with a better idiot.
IshKebab 6mo ago
It's shitty to just say "you might not do it safely so you can't do it at all". We don't do that when building houses for example - anyone can build a house; you just need to get safety inspections at certain points in the build process. Why not do the same for cars?

oompydoompy74 6mo ago

I was excited until I read this and the price. I would love to try and drop this into a 90s Miata for a fun garage project.

yourusername 6mo ago
The battery weight alone exceeds the load capacity of a 90s miata by 2x. And i wonder how well it would handle with the 1000 lbs of battery under the hood or in the trunk, my guess is not very well.
- chrisBob 6mo ago
  The battery size really surprised me. I can see this working well with 1/3 the battery, but 1000lbs is crazy. The lighter motor and removal of the fuel tank will help a little, but replacing a heavy engine in the front with a heavier battery in the back can't possibly work.
  - idiotsecant 6mo ago
    How heavy do you think the average medium sized EV battery is? Batteries are heavy.
- rconti 6mo ago
  IIRC my NB (2002) Miata had a load capacity of 340lbs. I pretty much exceeded it any time I had a passenger, let alone anything in the trunk!
- oompydoompy74 6mo ago
  Yeah I uh… didn’t really think about that haha. Maybe with some frame reinforcements, heavy duty coilovers, and performance brakes?
MoonWalk 6mo ago
This, the price, and the power level. Meanwhile, Ford has been selling the Mach-E motor as a crate motor for years; but it's useless, because they sell nothing else for it. No battery pack, no controller, no regenerative brakes. Pretty much a PR sham. Why bother? I have a Mustang with a half-disassembled engine that needs major work, so I thought hey this might be cool. Nope.

rascul 6mo ago

Some of that might be to satisfy the EPA since it's technically against their rules to do engine swaps in many cases or delete or modify emissions devices.

Tostino 6mo ago
Then why are they able to provide a 500hp gas crate motor?
- rascul 6mo ago
  There's probably a disclaimer that it's not for street vehicles. Note in the eCrate link it's explicitly claimed to be legal when done correctly.
  - rascul 6mo ago
    More information: What I was recalling is the EPA's Engine Switching Fact Sheet from 1991. https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/documents/engswitch_0.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/documents/engswitch_... I learned today that it was replaced in 2020 by the EPA Tampering Policy. This one doesn't seem to focus so much on engine swaps but on the emissions devices themselves. https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/epatamperingpolicy-enforcementpolicyonvehicleandenginetampering.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ep...
- Tanoc 6mo ago
  When you do that you're supposed to classify the vehicle as an OHV, or off-highway vehicle. Problem is a lot of states don't actually do emissions testing, others don't do vehicle status inspection, and some don't do either. You ever wonder why Indiana has such a huge number of drag racing cars in the Prostock and Superstock classes? There's no emissions testing outside the capitol.
  - 83 6mo ago
    >> You ever wonder why Indiana has such a huge number of drag racing cars in the Prostock and Superstock classes? I can honestly say I've never wondered that. It's so oddly specific lol.

giantg2 6mo ago

Big brand crate engines have always been obscene. Almost every LS swap you see was someone pulling a motor out of a junker.

nubinetwork 6mo ago
Only because they will charge a premium if you don't return the "old core". Nobody wants the hassle, or the upfront cost for not having one to give them.
- giantg2 6mo ago
  Even with a core, their "performance" engines have still been absurdly expensive.

idiotsecant 6mo ago

You're underestimating the complexity of doing what you're describing. There is a market for a $10k package where the communications busses are documented, everything has square plumb mounting, no fabrication is required, etc. I have done several EV conversions using parts as you describe and there is a healthy amount of reverse engineering, defeating or replicating functions you didnt think of until it doesnt work right with modules that are expecting other modules to exist on the bus that no longer exist, and a million other things. That's fine for a personal hobby project, but that is a very, very, very small project. The target for this kind of product is conversion shops that want to be able to offer customers tight turnarounds on vanity EV conversions with warrantees. 10k is pretty minor on that kind of project, the lead time and integration complexity is way more important.