11 ms·

BYD has to me become an icon of US decline vs Chinese expansion. It’s just one example among many of China charting the way forward and innovating while the US

BYD has to me become an icon of US decline vs Chinese expansion. It’s just one example among many of China charting the way forward and innovating while the US recedes further into backward-looking, protectionist policy. See: US politicians on both sides trying to ban BYD imports rather than incentivizing stiffer competition from US automakers. Another example: massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects. You occasionally see a heartwarming post: “California adds solar panels over a canal” and it just looks cute and kind of sad compared to the massive, ambitious, and technologically superior build out of Chinese renewables. This is to say nothing of the CCP and their record on human rights and free expression. But anyone paying attention can quite clearly see that China is winning and the US is sacrificing their global superiority at the altar of fear, ignorance, and religious nationalism.

colechristensen 5mo ago
Tesla would be considerably more popular globally if Elon kept his political opinions to himself and exaggerated capabilities and timelines a bit less.
PessimalDecimal 5mo ago
In what world is China less "protectionist" than the US?
- EA-3167 5mo ago
  In the world of Chinese media I suppose? To me this all looks like the same hand-wringing angst we went through in the 1980’s with the industrialization of Japan bearing massive fruit. Right down to the shaky real estate markets.
  - landryraccoon 5mo ago
    China has surpassed the US in total energy generation, and the gap is growing in their favor every year. Japan never surpassed the US in power or industrial output. China is different. They’ve clearly surpassed the US in some key areas.
    - EA-3167 5mo ago
      I would certainly expect a country with 4x the population of the US, which is used as the center of global manufacturing, to need a lot of power. I’m not sure that’s something that anyone should be concerned about from a geopolitical point of view. Likewise expecting Japan to have ever done the same is… silly.
      - TitaRusell 5mo ago
        [flagged]
      - esafak 5mo ago
        You're not concerned about the biggest army in the world flexing its muscles?
        EA-3167 5mo ago
        If the size of an army represented a reliable measure of its ability to project power, we’d all be trembling at the might of North Korea.
        mghackerlady 5mo ago
        Not really, china has never started a war and overall seems to understand it as a pointless yet necessary endeavour
        Lio 5mo ago
        China has 100% started wars. The Sino-Vietnamese War for starters.
        tartoran 5mo ago
        Not in the same sense the US or Russia. The Sino-Vietnamese war was brief, about a month. Compare that to US or Russian wars. Now, Im not saying that China won't start wars since they've become a lot stronger. Just looking at it through a historic perspective.
- plaidthunder 5mo ago
  The world before all of the big beautiful tariffs. It's depressing that we can't buy BYD in the USA. It's feeling more and more like being stuck with a Lada in the 1980s.
  - weirdmantis69 5mo ago
    Ya I heard that from some chinese facebook users... oh wait...
  - leereeves 5mo ago
    Are BYD cars specifically banned or do they just not comply with all the US regulations?
    - plaidthunder 5mo ago
      100% tariff and political threats -- implying that they'd find a way to mark them as "unsafe", despite the fact that Canada and Europe tend to have higher safety standards than the US and already have BYD presence. You can see the political groundwork being laid here. https://homeland.house.gov/2025/05/21/homeland-republicans-probe-prc-affiliated-transportation-manufacturers-for-potential-national-security-threats/#:~:text=In%20the%20letter%2C%20the%20members,a%20U.S.%2Dbased%20domestic%20manufacturer. https://homeland.house.gov/2025/05/21/homeland-republicans-p... If these concerns are so pressing, why do we allow any electronics at all from China? It smells like air cover for a de-facto ban on BYD. To force US consumers to buy from politically blessed car makers instead of letting us choose the highest quality car available (at a given price point).
      - 1234letshaveatw 5mo ago
        Some level of protectionism is in the best interest of national security. How is the local electronics industry that you referenced in the US doing? What is the ramification of eliminating the job market for engineers or discarding all of the US manufacturing know how? The CCP knows the answer to that question
- Pfhortune 5mo ago
  I believe they're specifically referring to energy policy. As they said: > massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects The protectees in this case are fossil fuel interests.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
- everdrive 5mo ago
  The modern discourse is quite rough -- people have been making these equivalencies for quite some time -- but as the US behavior becomes worse and worse, these equivalencies become more and more true. And as they become truer, the people who have always been pushing them only feel vindicated. It's quite unfortunate, but I can't say I blame them. From their perspective the tiger is finally showing its stripes.
- dangus 5mo ago
  There are two types of protectionism: 1. Protecting your interests by building a dynamic strategy. You protect your interests by enhancing your strengths and building on them. 2. Protecting your interests by playing “defense” against your decline. We all know which country chose which path. Chinese party leadership is stacked with literal engineers. They’ve prioritized development of industries crucial to their success. For example, they know they’re never going to be a big oil producer and that fighting wars over oil is expensive and futile, so they have developed their path to energy independence with their solar and wind industry along with electrified transit of all types. Meanwhile, in America, our leadership is stacked with grifters who only have experience in shifting money around. We are all stuck with oil and car dependence that nobody’s willing to address with long-term infrastructure development reforms. We are trapped fighting wars over oil because $6-7/gallon gasoline in middle America would trigger a major recession. Our government actively incentivizes wasting oil via automotive regulations written by industry lobbyists. That big F-150 parked at the Old Navy that doesn’t need to follow CAFE regulations is totally a “work truck.” We don’t strive to build the most competitive industries, instead we use sanctions and tariffs to prevent foreign competition from reaching our shores. And before you talk about China disallowing foreign competition, I’ll note that Chinese citizens can go to the mall in China and buy a Tesla, an iPhone, an Audi, Levi’s jeans, Coach bags, do a web search on Bing, deploy applications on AWS servers in Beijing, etc.
  - strictnein 5mo ago
    > 1. Protecting your interests by building a dynamic strategy. "Dynamic" is doing a hell of a lot of work there. I guess what you mean is steal technology from the west, undercut pricing on foreign goods and dump products in their markets to destroy the competition, end up being the last one standing, because you freely violate trade agreements (as a member of the WTO) and other treaties. > " so they have developed their path to energy independence with their solar and wind industry along with electrified transit of all type" They have more coal power than the rest of the world combined, and are building more. Their "path to energy independence with their solar and wind" is purely propaganda. >they know they’re never going to be a big oil producer They're literally the sixth largest, just behind Iraq and ahead of Iran. I'm pretty sure people consider Iraq a "big oil producer", right? They also have the 13th most proven untapped oil reserves, and likely more than that since they're not in the business of oversharing.
TulliusCicero 5mo ago
I don't mind restricting Chinese imports in principle, since China is well known to be very protectionist, moreso than Western countries for sure. Trade needs to be a two way street. That said, it is indeed disappointing that we can't get their affordable EVs over here. Western legacy automakers really need a kick in the ass (especially since Tesla seems to just be phoning it in now).
- atonse 5mo ago
  With EVs, Tesla's the only one in the US not phoning it in. I used to think they were until I got a new Model Y Juniper. I don't count Rivian or Lucid until they actually have even somewhat affordable EVs. But pretty much everyone else in the US is doing a piss poor job with EVs and just don't seem to care at all. Ford seemed to have lost interest in the F-150 lightning. I agree that trade needs to be a two way street. But I'm not convinced yet on "affordable" since these might be severely subsidized by the Chinese Gov to undermine domestic car makers across different nations. I say might only because I'm not 100% sure.
  - testing22321 5mo ago
    > Ford seemed to have lost interest in the F-150 lightning. It’s cancelled. So is the Chev Silverado EV.
    - 1234letshaveatw 5mo ago
      The Chevy is not. A refresh was delayed
  - RavingGoat 5mo ago
    EV trucks don't work yet. The technology isn't there yet in this country. You can't tow.
    - bluGill 5mo ago
      You can tow. However you can't reasonably tow for any distance. You can probably even tow for most trips - but you will spend 1/3rd of the trip or more sitting at a fast charger in the best case (and in many cases the only charger is a level 2 chargers so many hours at the charger for every 1 driving)
baq 5mo ago
BYD has pretty amazing tech to be honest, but putting protectionism as an argument against the US and pro BYD in the same sentence is naive at best. The CCP allowed BYD to exist and the CCP can end BYD in a single weekend regardless of any human right concerns elsewhere.
- dhosek 5mo ago
  I may end up living outside the US next year (was going to be this year but it’s been postponed) and when I was investigating auto options, I’ve been severely tempted by the BYD Seal as a replacement for my Prius. All the reviews I’ve found have been positive and while I’m not a big fan of the compromises made in the display mount for the useless automatic rotation feature, it’s quite tempting. I’m torn between just getting a new Prius or spending an additional 8K for the Seal. I don’t know that I’ll drive enough for the difference in cost to add up (or, for that matter, to justify buying a car at all, but that’s a question for a different day), but I really like the idea of not contributing to the pollution in the urban area I’d be living. Option C would be the plugin hybrid version of the Seal which would be cheaper than the Prius.
  - soperj 5mo ago
    Where outside the US? You might be fine with just a bike and transit.
    - dhosek 5mo ago
      Mexico City. The big gotcha is that I have two kids and an ex-wife who will be living a few miles away so there will be 1–4 times per week that I’ll need to manage their transport between homes. The kids are the main reason I own a car now.
- lostlogin 5mo ago
  > the CCP can end BYD in a single weekend Seeing the way tech companies behave makes me think they fear Trump the same way. for example, Tim Apple certainly crawls up Trumps arse.
throwaway_7274 5mo ago
I was glued to the window while flying over southern China recently. There is so much infrastructure you can see from the air, even in fairly rural provinces. So many bridges. So many wind turbines. It is visibly a country on the move, a country that believes in itself and its ability to do things. The Chinese Century is increasingly palpable, for better or worse.
- threethirtytwo 5mo ago
  A Chinese person who was here in the US as a foreign student once commented to me that he was so surprised that the United States was like the country side. He didn’t realize how rural the country was. This was at UCLA which is in LA which is the second biggest city in the US.
  - leereeves 5mo ago
    Presumably referring to population density? People like the low density in California.
  - klodolph 5mo ago
    People are also surprised how rural much of China is.
    - jimbob45 5mo ago
      https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/origin.png https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/origin.png Posting the map in case anyone hasn’t seen it.
      - monocasa 5mo ago
        To be fair, six percent is still 84 million people.
      - 10xDev 5mo ago
        Russia, US, Australia, Canada are all like this. Probably many more. The world is a very small place when you look at where most people actually live.
testing22321 5mo ago
Even more so with public transport. In 2008 China had 1,300km of high speed rail. In 2025 they had over 45,000km. Meanwhile America has zero…. But is bringing back the V8! Ye-haw!
- b40d-48b2-979e 5mo ago
  /insert star wars anakin and padme meme Surely with the cost of fuel skyrocketing we'll pivot to public transit and non-fossil-fuel transport, right? Right?
catigula 5mo ago
>innovating Right. Refining already invented things is 'innovation'.
- adgjlsfhk1 5mo ago
  that's what most innovation is. the model T wasn't the first car. it was the car that was sufficiently refined to take over.
  - catigula 5mo ago
    We have very different definitions of innovation. Respondants: Please, stop lying on the internet. It's not healthy. Stop making things up. Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation Making cars faster or cheaper isn't an "innovation". Making a flying car is innovation. Inventing the car is invention. Systematic government-aided intellectual property theft, lax labor laws, low wages and low standards of living aren't innovative.
    - happosai 5mo ago
      The word you are looking for is "invention". Innovation instead means exactly refining and improving existing things.
    - deleted 5mo ago
      [deleted]
    - cpursley 5mo ago
      Your understanding of the situation is over a decade out of date. The Chinese are outright innovating at this point, they are well past the copy-paste stage. If you'd like to catch up, this is a good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy/videos https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy/videos And btw, they are making flying cars as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBp96YGStIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBp96YGStIQ
      - 5mo ago
cyanydeez 5mo ago
It's like what happened in the 80's with japanese cars. Except, America's poised to become a oligarchy and will absolute just punch itself in the face rather than let the oligarchy suffer.
Karrot_Kream 5mo ago
> Another example: massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects. You occasionally see a heartwarming post: “California adds solar panels over a canal” and it just looks cute and kind of sad compared to the massive, ambitious, and technologically superior build out of Chinese renewables. Coal is still the majority of generation capacity [1] in China and China continues to build a lot more coal [2] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China [2]: https://apnews.com/article/china-coal-solar-climate-carbon-emissions-242abe76eb69f5a362e977de74ff3254 https://apnews.com/article/china-coal-solar-climate-carbon-e... > BYD has to me become an icon of US decline vs Chinese expansion Is this supposed to help virality or something? "US decline"?
- snapcaster 5mo ago
  As an american i feel it. have you ever visited China? it's sad man, in more and more industries america is only able to compete by banning china from even contesting the market Not just on dumping or price, actual product quality, innovation and value. It's impossible to visit a Huawei store in Beijing and not feel it in your bones
  - Karrot_Kream 5mo ago
    > As an american i feel it How do we have a productive discussion about our feelings on a tech site?
    - surgical_fire 5mo ago
      You start with a non-sequitur on China using coal to generate electricity. Because that, too, is feelings. In this case, insecurity.
      - Karrot_Kream 5mo ago
        > Another example: massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects. You occasionally see a heartwarming post: “California adds solar panels over a canal” and it just looks cute and kind of sad compared to the massive, ambitious, and technologically superior build out of Chinese renewables. EDIT: thanks I didn't realize I forgot to add the context of my original reply to the post. Edited it to add context.
1234letshaveatw 5mo ago
Sounds like wishful and biased thinking, but enjoy your updoots
whatever1 5mo ago
No to me it just shows 2 different capital allocation strategies. China picked manufacturing. US picked datacenters.
- mohamedkoubaa 5mo ago
  And yet we will do worse in both categories
- vkou 5mo ago
  If 90% of the data centers in the world were hit by a nuclear bomb tomorrow, communication would be a shit show for a month or two, and then go on, as we'd fall back to simpler, less compute-expensive solutions. We'd also probably be net better off without all the adtech crap. If 90% of the factories in the world were hit by a nuclear bomb, you'd find that your standard of living would immediately, and quite observably plummet. You tell me which is more important. The amount of internet technocrap we actually need to live comfortably is a tiny fraction of what actually gets built. Most of it is in service of adtech, the surveillance state, or shaving 0.5% off some rentseeker's fat margins (on his side, the savings aren't passed on to us).
  - notahacker 5mo ago
    Whilst manufacturing has more practical value than much of what's in datacentres[1] it doesn't necessarily follow that it's the more valuable strategic play or route to long term economic growth (bubble or no bubble) Food is more critical to us than Alibaba crap or even top notch smartphones and would be missed rather more if we had a nuclear exchange, but Chinese entrepreneurs would rather own factories exporting manufactured goods than rice paddies, and for good reason. The Chinese government would like to be self sufficient with food production, but unlike many less technologically developed countries it isn't. Most of those countries stay poor though. Food doesn't change or scale as much as manufacturing, which possibly doesn't change as fast or scale as big as compute. Plus in theory at least, some of the compute is being devoted to automating away dependency on offshore labour for manufacturing, although I suspect China is generally ahead in the manufacturing automation areas of AI anyway... [1]I'd rather have kitchen appliances than novelty image generation, spamblogs or ad retargeting, but then again I'd also rather have access to knowledge and communications than plastic toys...
aesch 5mo ago
It seems like BYD is a much bigger threat to Europe (specifically Germany) and Japan. The auto industry is big in the US but an insignificant amount of total exports. Germany and Japan could both lose their cash cows if the Chinese auto industry dominates international sales. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_e...
- beardyw 5mo ago
  That's not really like with like. If you divided the states in USA into countries, their sales would be "international". The designation is misleading.
  - aesch 5mo ago
    The main point is that BYD is an existential threat to Germany and Japan. Per Wikipedia (List of countries by exports + List of countries by vehicle exports, latest available data): - US: ~$144B vehicle exports / ~$3.23T total exports → ~4.5% - Germany: ~$280B / ~$1.99T → ~14% - Japan: ~$151B / ~$922B → ~16% Even if you treat US states as separate 'countries' and balloon the US export denominator further, the ratio doesn't move into the same league. Autos are roughly 3x more important to Germany and ~3.5x more important to Japan as a share of foreign-earned revenue than they are to the US. BYD taking the US auto export share is an inconvenience for a few states. BYD taking Germany's or Japan's is regime-altering for the whole national economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_e... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports
threethirtytwo 5mo ago
Another thing overtaking the US is average IQ scores. Both in the current baseline and in rate of change. US has been declining, China has been increasing. > This is to say nothing of the CCP and their record on human rights and free expression. To be very practical here… the lack of rights and freedoms as they exist in China typically has no consequence to the lives of individual people. For example you have no right to protest. But how many of us have exercised that right in the US? Personally I never did. And honestly those protests end up being just parties and parades
- bluGill 5mo ago
  I write my congressman every few months about something. Sometimes just to send a form letter that one of the various organizations writes for me. I also vote regularly. You should too.
  - threethirtytwo 5mo ago
    futile attempts at change. All your work logically amounts to know measurable difference in change. Imagine the counter factual if you didn't vote or write letters. Nothing changes. Your actions are irrational in nature and that is the tragedy of the commons. Additionally because your actions are irrational, the majority of people don't actually exercise the rights you exercise. That again is the tragedy of the commons. So in short I'm still right, and you've proven nothing.
- tptacek 5mo ago
  I see claims like this all the time on HN. Where is this data supposed to be coming from? When I look it up on Google, I get data ultimately sourced from shady online IQ tests (which nonetheless purport to provide a monotonic ranking of every country in the world from China to Nauru, despite the fact that virtually none of these countries collect IQ scores from their populations). I have no reason to doubt that China is modernizing and improving their gross aptitude for knowledge work! The directional point you're making may very well be valid! I'm just wondering how anyone could be quantifying it in terms of "average IQ", a metric that generally does not exist.
Bombthecat 5mo ago
BYD has to me become an icon of German decline vs Chinese expansion. My view. I was looking at a new car. Went into several car shops, VW, Skoda, Toyota and BYD. And all of them were basically empty and BYD was FULL! Like really really full. And the sales guy confirmed it, they are selling cars like crazy.
- electriclove 5mo ago
  Which country was this in?
  - titanomachy 5mo ago
    Must be EU somewhere, never seen a Skoda anywhere else.
    - michaelhoney 5mo ago
      they're reasonably popular in Australia. They have done a good job of marketing their station wagons/estates to the road-biking community
      - Bombthecat 5mo ago
        The enyaq / elroq is a crazy good car for your money
    - tmnvix 5mo ago
      Plenty in NZ. The police use the wagon. They used to use GM/Holden vehicles but at some point they became the worse choice (reduced headroom in the rear seats amongst other reasons).
  - Bombthecat 5mo ago
    Well.. Germany :)
    - electriclove 5mo ago
jancsika 5mo ago
> This is to say nothing of the CCP and their record on human rights and free expression. Just curious-- if you did say something about this, what would it be?
weirdmantis69 5mo ago
lmao. "religious nationalism"? What are you referring to here? The USA's new tighter immigration standards? What pray tell is China's immigration policy? Ignorance? Are you referring to perhaps San Francisco progressives eliminating enhanced schooling because it makes some students feel bad about themselves? https://www.educationnext.org/san-franciscos-detracking-experiment/ https://www.educationnext.org/san-franciscos-detracking-expe... Fear? Oh I know, you are talking about how in blue states they can't even build simple housing never mind mega projects like high speed rail and that's why red states are acquiring population and capital at accelerating speeds. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/02/why-nothing-works-marc-dunkelman/681407/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/02/why-nothin...
- mghackerlady 5mo ago
  those mega projects are almost always killed by republicans. also, listen to the rhetoric around christianity in republican circles and tell me it isn't religious nationalism
  - foobar1274278 5mo ago
    Ah yes, like those dang ol no good reds in single party California, sabotaging their high speed rail project for the past 20 years. 14 billion in the hole and not a single mile of track.
    - mghackerlady 5mo ago
      that was sabotaged by musks hyperloop
WarmWash 5mo ago
The problem the US has, at least in this area, is that it's manufacturing is in the dumps and that's not even plainly bad thing. No US born child in the last 30 years aspired to working a factory job. The US is an advanced economy with advanced jobs. We get degrees, we sit at desks, maybe even sit at home, work on computers, and generate an order of magnitude more wealth than our screw turning counterpart overseas. I can tell you with first hand experience, that this problem is much deeper than "the US needs to catch up" because in reality what is happening is that China is the one playing catch up. The US is already 30 years into the endgame of economic development. China is where the US was 75 years ago, and on paper, the US has only progressed from that point.
- elAhmo 5mo ago
  > China is where the US was 75 years ago Quite a wild claim
  - WarmWash 5mo ago
    It's the progression of countries from agriculture economies to service economies. 1950's US was a manufacturing powerhouse with almost entirely in house supply chains and with heavy public infrastructure drives, not at all unlike China today. But trust me, all those people working in poor conditions for cheap pay in China will do everything they can to ensure their kids don't work those jobs. And just like the US, that fountain of cheap labor will go away and everyone will want their comfy high paying desk job.
    - elAhmo 5mo ago
      A country is more than just its manufacturing industry.
- thewebguyd 5mo ago
  > We get degrees, we sit at desks, maybe even sit at home, work on computers, and generate an order of magnitude more wealth than our screw turning counterpart overseas Generate wealth for whom, though? That's also ignoring the entire economic underclass that system creates of service & gig workers that can no longer afford to live in the cities in which they work. Not everyone has the ability or desire for knowledge work. The US still needs to catch up too. We have an infrastructure problem. Where is our high speed rail and public transit? Cycling infrastructure? Renewables? Housing in high demand areas? Socialized healthcare? Safety nets for said economic underclass? We are behind in so many ways because we view wealth generation for the top xy% as the only metric of success.
zitterbewegung 5mo ago
38.9% of BYDs direct profits are from subsidies. Tesla subsidies expired already… if we are going to judge on equal footing China is subsidizing a much bigger part of BYDs sales.
- SapporoChris 5mo ago
  From my understanding China did have subsidies for EVs but that expired last year. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-excludes-evs-latest-five-year-plan-industry-grapples-with-oversupply-2025-10-28/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-...
- 7734128 5mo ago
  Really? I think 38.9% of statistics without sources are made up.
Squarex 5mo ago
And even more an icon of european irrelevance. In Prague almost all EVs are Teslas. I see a BYD time to time. Škoda or Volkswagen almost never.
- usrnm 5mo ago
  In the Netherlands I see plenty of Renault 5s or VW IDs, many Teslas, too. And almost no BYD
- sofixa 5mo ago
  As a counterpoint, around 1/3 of EVs I see in France are Renaults. SImilar story, but a bit less evident, in Spain. Both have decent amounts of Hyundai Ioniqs, Teslas, and some BYDs and Dacias. But especially in France, Renault Meganes, 5s and now the 4 is everywhere. Don't forget that "Europe" is actually 30ish (if you count EU) or even more countries (if you count the continent), with wildly different markets and players on them.
  - Squarex 5mo ago
    Sure, it could be that in Czechia most EVs owners are still tech fans and they choose Tesla. BYD expands to the EU from the east, so it may overrepresentated here. Škoda apparently has decent electric sales in the Vokswagen group. Just anecdotally something like 80% EVs I see are Teslas.
- unclejuan 5mo ago
  No wonder, VAG has only produced overpriced cars for a while... I recently helped a friend looking for a brand new SUV in the 70-80,000 euro range (taxes included) and the audi Q5 was both the most expensive and the worst built one in that price range. We checked loads of cars and agreed that the volvo XC60 was arguably the best value for money, the BMW X3 was the one which drove the best (but also the most uncomfortable), the Lexus NX450h was the most comfortable and the best built, the Mercedes GLC was probably the most balanced one (although the value for money wasn't great). The Audi Q5 only stood out for poor build quality and being overpriced. It's literally the only car which we didn't see an upside for, we didn't even bother to test-drive it... Also it seems they aren't very reliable anymore...
strictnein 5mo ago
That's certainly a take. China just has this decades long history of targeting foreign industries, flooding the market with that product, and then being the only one left standing. The idea that we should allow cheap vehicles to flood the domestic market because that will "cause the US auto manufacturers compete" ignores the wholly uneven playing field at work here, and the government backed goal of one side. Just the cost of labor alone makes that not an approachable thing to do. On the reverse "bad" US side, we have more and more international auto manufacturers building and investing in factories in the US every year. Strangely, this decision involves billions of dollars and years of work to make happen. It's not based on internet vibes. And the "renewable" growth is really kind of misleading. They're also building more coal power plants than the rest of the earth, combined, each year. They represent ~50% of the worldwide coal power in use today and produce roughly one third of the total CO2 in the world now, almost 3x that of the US. But I guess the future is government funded undercutting of international competitors, using technology stolen by the government from those competitors, in order to destroy those competitors, while using very dirty and cheap energy to do so? Is that the lesson we're supposed to learn from them?
- tredre3 5mo ago
  American car manufacturers have extremely small market shares outside N.A., and many (all?) of them required multiple government bailouts over the past few decades. If you think that keeping China is good for the consumer, you'll have to present a stronger case than "we must protect our companies".
  - strictnein 5mo ago
    > If you think that keeping [out] China is good for the consumer It would be excellent for the consumer, in the rather short term, to not keep them out. Cheap cars! Cheap goods flooding our markets are great for consumers in the short term. > American car manufacturers have extremely small market shares outside N.A Here's a game: One company is American. The other is not. Company 1 Market Share: North America: 16.5% South America: 8.9% Asia: 7.6% Company 2 Market Share: North America: 14.87% South America: 8.3% Asia: 8.28% Now, without looking, which is the "US company without market share outside of NA", and which is the foreign company that understands how to compete?
malshe 5mo ago
I would support allowing any Chinese automaker in the US if they form a 51:49 joint venture with an American company.
- usrnm 5mo ago
  Wait, wasn't the free market supposed to be a superior system? You cannot at the same time argue that something is better and wish you didn't have it
  - somelamer567 5mo ago
    What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Or just China just deserve special treatment?
stephc_int13 5mo ago
Many predicted it for a long time, the US will always be a great power, for structural and geographical reasons, but it won't keep the position it had for almost a century. The good thing about China is that apart from Taiwan they have little territoral ambitions, I don't foresee huge conflicts incoming, but I am a not entirely sure the US will manage to lost its position as gracefully as the British Empire. It could be bad news for US citizens if their currency precipitiously lose its power, and they'll look for people to blame.
- the_gastropod 5mo ago
  > The good thing about China is that apart from Taiwan they have little territoral ambitions One of the reasons China wants Taiwan is because it would enable further territorial expansions into The Philippines and Japan. China considers any neighboring Democratic nation a threat. Taiwan is just their first / easiest prospective target. If you have access to PBS, there's a very good documentary that touches on this a bit called Invisible Nation.
mschuster91 5mo ago
> BYD has to me become an icon of US decline vs Chinese expansion. It’s just one example among many of China charting the way forward and innovating while the US recedes further into backward-looking, protectionist policy. See: US politicians on both sides trying to ban BYD imports rather than incentivizing stiffer competition from US automakers. The problem is, China isn't competing fairly! As a Western manufacturer, bound to well-paying union labor and environmental protection laws, and restricted by the mechanisms of the free markets, you cannot compete with a country that employs all sorts of labor abuses (from complete ignorance about OSHA and its national equivalents over 996 work model to outright forced labor and slavery), completely wrecks its own environment and provides virtually unlimited financial funds to its companies in its quest to achieve dominance. China is inarguably the biggest threat the entire rest of the world faces and barely anyone is even seeing the dangers.
- tartoran 5mo ago
  How did it get here though? The west basically handed them everything on a plate and gutted the domestic industries for a quick profit. What next?
sourcegrift 5mo ago
China harvests organs of muslims. China doesn't allow LGBTQ representation on public media. China forcibly married uyghur women to handle men. It's important to remember the whole global picture before we take sides.
- FireBeyond 5mo ago
  > China doesn't allow LGBTQ representation on public media. And several US states are inching closer to making being some of those letters, particularly the T, outright illegal.
  - sourcegrift 5mo ago
    [flagged]
sfjailbird 5mo ago
> This is to say nothing of the CCP and their record on human rights The U.S. record on human rights is horrific, if you see it from a global perspective (which you should). China is a saint in comparison.
dyauspitr 5mo ago
It makes sense to ban BUD imports but don’t you dare try and both sides this argument by saying EV and renewable power strategy are the same on both sides.
tim333 5mo ago
One thing China did which was smart was to start training thousands of engineers about twenty years ago, about 10x the number of US engineering graduates. That's paying off now. It was also a little sad to see the treatment of Tesla by Biden. It was the world's leading EV company at the time but he excluded from EV get togethers because he wanted the unionised companies like GM to win. I think that sort of thing - protecting mediocre incumbents that contribute to the right politicians didn't help. Musk was a dem at the time but after that flipped to Trump and went a bit off the rails.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
dzhiurgis 5mo ago
Left in US sneer at technocrats but absolutely gobble up their products with gusto.
willio58 5mo ago
In some ways it’s sad to see, but I’d be lying to say I didn’t have a little happiness seeing the actions of politicians in the U.S. catch up with them. It’s like there was this belief, we are the most powerful country in the world and we can do whatever we want. Meanwhile we see countries very much question that as we flounder in the Middle East for the umpteenth time in a few decades. We see countries start to get away from the dollar, we see countries call out our military leaders for poor planning. It’s not like the American public deserve this, but America itself might.
seanmcdirmid 5mo ago
I never really expected the USA to allow low tariff Chinese car imports since China has been very protective of their own car market over the last couple of decades. I did expect BYD to set up some factories in the USA (or Canada Mexico when NAFTA was still a thing) to make their EVs for the American markets (should be affordable in a third world state like Mississippi), just like the Japanese auto manufacturers did. It’s sad that we aren’t getting that anytime soon. America has simply forgot how to build real things on a schedule and on a budget. Our only real niche now is software (with help from Indian and Chinese talent) and locked down tech that China will eventually figure out. It’s very hard to not be pessimistic about the direction the USA is going and I can see why people elected someone horrible like Trump (he promised a way out, even if it was a stupid way out that would never work).
baranul 5mo ago
A key point is whether a government actually cares about its citizens and their future, which also creates a side benefit for humanity in general. It's not quite nationalism or maybe the term is being used as a disguise for something else, if those in power believe 50% or even the majority of their own population is not worth worrying about, should be "thrown away", or "removed". Out of control elitism and corruption, combined with lack of empathy and narcissism, can very easily undermine human rights, freedom, and national progress.
raxxorraxor 5mo ago
BYD is successful because they are cheap. For most people cars are simple utilities. But countries either need to be protectionist or you need to lower production costs to a Chinese level. That means workers only earn the same as a Chinese worker. You could also collect import taxes, but I think people simply cannot or don't want to afford a car that is much more expensive. Some decry Chinese government subsidies for cars, but the truth is that these exist in western nations as well. They are sometimes indirect, but the end result is the same. The secret to cheap prices is simple labor costs. Commonly refereed to as race to the bottom and not a new topic/problem. Car makers in countries with high labor costs could maybe pivot to luxury cars... otherwise the result of the competition is already determined. In 50 years China will have the same problem with other countries that produce even cheaper. That is already happening and for quite a few years already. Taxes would probably be the best solution, but they have become politicised and weaponised.
Yizahi 5mo ago
Oh, don't worry. I'm sure Mr. Stable Orange will follow the tradition and institute a Capybara tax soon, forbidding import of any foreign EV smaller than 2 meters wide and 7 meters long and having a fully enclosed body. That will show those libruls :) .

colechristensen 5mo ago

Tesla would be considerably more popular globally if Elon kept his political opinions to himself and exaggerated capabilities and timelines a bit less.

PessimalDecimal 5mo ago

In what world is China less "protectionist" than the US?

EA-3167 5mo ago
In the world of Chinese media I suppose? To me this all looks like the same hand-wringing angst we went through in the 1980’s with the industrialization of Japan bearing massive fruit. Right down to the shaky real estate markets.
- landryraccoon 5mo ago
  China has surpassed the US in total energy generation, and the gap is growing in their favor every year. Japan never surpassed the US in power or industrial output. China is different. They’ve clearly surpassed the US in some key areas.
  - EA-3167 5mo ago
    I would certainly expect a country with 4x the population of the US, which is used as the center of global manufacturing, to need a lot of power. I’m not sure that’s something that anyone should be concerned about from a geopolitical point of view. Likewise expecting Japan to have ever done the same is… silly.
    - TitaRusell 5mo ago
      [flagged]
    - esafak 5mo ago
      You're not concerned about the biggest army in the world flexing its muscles?
      - EA-3167 5mo ago
        If the size of an army represented a reliable measure of its ability to project power, we’d all be trembling at the might of North Korea.
      - mghackerlady 5mo ago
        Not really, china has never started a war and overall seems to understand it as a pointless yet necessary endeavour
        Lio 5mo ago
        China has 100% started wars. The Sino-Vietnamese War for starters.
        tartoran 5mo ago
        Not in the same sense the US or Russia. The Sino-Vietnamese war was brief, about a month. Compare that to US or Russian wars. Now, Im not saying that China won't start wars since they've become a lot stronger. Just looking at it through a historic perspective.
plaidthunder 5mo ago
The world before all of the big beautiful tariffs. It's depressing that we can't buy BYD in the USA. It's feeling more and more like being stuck with a Lada in the 1980s.
- weirdmantis69 5mo ago
  Ya I heard that from some chinese facebook users... oh wait...
- leereeves 5mo ago
  Are BYD cars specifically banned or do they just not comply with all the US regulations?
  - plaidthunder 5mo ago
    100% tariff and political threats -- implying that they'd find a way to mark them as "unsafe", despite the fact that Canada and Europe tend to have higher safety standards than the US and already have BYD presence. You can see the political groundwork being laid here. https://homeland.house.gov/2025/05/21/homeland-republicans-probe-prc-affiliated-transportation-manufacturers-for-potential-national-security-threats/#:~:text=In%20the%20letter%2C%20the%20members,a%20U.S.%2Dbased%20domestic%20manufacturer. https://homeland.house.gov/2025/05/21/homeland-republicans-p... If these concerns are so pressing, why do we allow any electronics at all from China? It smells like air cover for a de-facto ban on BYD. To force US consumers to buy from politically blessed car makers instead of letting us choose the highest quality car available (at a given price point).
    - 1234letshaveatw 5mo ago
      Some level of protectionism is in the best interest of national security. How is the local electronics industry that you referenced in the US doing? What is the ramification of eliminating the job market for engineers or discarding all of the US manufacturing know how? The CCP knows the answer to that question
Pfhortune 5mo ago
I believe they're specifically referring to energy policy. As they said: > massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects The protectees in this case are fossil fuel interests.
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
everdrive 5mo ago
The modern discourse is quite rough -- people have been making these equivalencies for quite some time -- but as the US behavior becomes worse and worse, these equivalencies become more and more true. And as they become truer, the people who have always been pushing them only feel vindicated. It's quite unfortunate, but I can't say I blame them. From their perspective the tiger is finally showing its stripes.
dangus 5mo ago
There are two types of protectionism: 1. Protecting your interests by building a dynamic strategy. You protect your interests by enhancing your strengths and building on them. 2. Protecting your interests by playing “defense” against your decline. We all know which country chose which path. Chinese party leadership is stacked with literal engineers. They’ve prioritized development of industries crucial to their success. For example, they know they’re never going to be a big oil producer and that fighting wars over oil is expensive and futile, so they have developed their path to energy independence with their solar and wind industry along with electrified transit of all types. Meanwhile, in America, our leadership is stacked with grifters who only have experience in shifting money around. We are all stuck with oil and car dependence that nobody’s willing to address with long-term infrastructure development reforms. We are trapped fighting wars over oil because $6-7/gallon gasoline in middle America would trigger a major recession. Our government actively incentivizes wasting oil via automotive regulations written by industry lobbyists. That big F-150 parked at the Old Navy that doesn’t need to follow CAFE regulations is totally a “work truck.” We don’t strive to build the most competitive industries, instead we use sanctions and tariffs to prevent foreign competition from reaching our shores. And before you talk about China disallowing foreign competition, I’ll note that Chinese citizens can go to the mall in China and buy a Tesla, an iPhone, an Audi, Levi’s jeans, Coach bags, do a web search on Bing, deploy applications on AWS servers in Beijing, etc.
- strictnein 5mo ago
  > 1. Protecting your interests by building a dynamic strategy. "Dynamic" is doing a hell of a lot of work there. I guess what you mean is steal technology from the west, undercut pricing on foreign goods and dump products in their markets to destroy the competition, end up being the last one standing, because you freely violate trade agreements (as a member of the WTO) and other treaties. > " so they have developed their path to energy independence with their solar and wind industry along with electrified transit of all type" They have more coal power than the rest of the world combined, and are building more. Their "path to energy independence with their solar and wind" is purely propaganda. >they know they’re never going to be a big oil producer They're literally the sixth largest, just behind Iraq and ahead of Iran. I'm pretty sure people consider Iraq a "big oil producer", right? They also have the 13th most proven untapped oil reserves, and likely more than that since they're not in the business of oversharing.

TulliusCicero 5mo ago

I don't mind restricting Chinese imports in principle, since China is well known to be very protectionist, moreso than Western countries for sure. Trade needs to be a two way street. That said, it is indeed disappointing that we can't get their affordable EVs over here. Western legacy automakers really need a kick in the ass (especially since Tesla seems to just be phoning it in now).

atonse 5mo ago
With EVs, Tesla's the only one in the US not phoning it in. I used to think they were until I got a new Model Y Juniper. I don't count Rivian or Lucid until they actually have even somewhat affordable EVs. But pretty much everyone else in the US is doing a piss poor job with EVs and just don't seem to care at all. Ford seemed to have lost interest in the F-150 lightning. I agree that trade needs to be a two way street. But I'm not convinced yet on "affordable" since these might be severely subsidized by the Chinese Gov to undermine domestic car makers across different nations. I say might only because I'm not 100% sure.
- testing22321 5mo ago
  > Ford seemed to have lost interest in the F-150 lightning. It’s cancelled. So is the Chev Silverado EV.
  - 1234letshaveatw 5mo ago
    The Chevy is not. A refresh was delayed
- RavingGoat 5mo ago
  EV trucks don't work yet. The technology isn't there yet in this country. You can't tow.
  - bluGill 5mo ago
    You can tow. However you can't reasonably tow for any distance. You can probably even tow for most trips - but you will spend 1/3rd of the trip or more sitting at a fast charger in the best case (and in many cases the only charger is a level 2 chargers so many hours at the charger for every 1 driving)

baq 5mo ago

BYD has pretty amazing tech to be honest, but putting protectionism as an argument against the US and pro BYD in the same sentence is naive at best. The CCP allowed BYD to exist and the CCP can end BYD in a single weekend regardless of any human right concerns elsewhere.

dhosek 5mo ago
I may end up living outside the US next year (was going to be this year but it’s been postponed) and when I was investigating auto options, I’ve been severely tempted by the BYD Seal as a replacement for my Prius. All the reviews I’ve found have been positive and while I’m not a big fan of the compromises made in the display mount for the useless automatic rotation feature, it’s quite tempting. I’m torn between just getting a new Prius or spending an additional 8K for the Seal. I don’t know that I’ll drive enough for the difference in cost to add up (or, for that matter, to justify buying a car at all, but that’s a question for a different day), but I really like the idea of not contributing to the pollution in the urban area I’d be living. Option C would be the plugin hybrid version of the Seal which would be cheaper than the Prius.
- soperj 5mo ago
  Where outside the US? You might be fine with just a bike and transit.
  - dhosek 5mo ago
    Mexico City. The big gotcha is that I have two kids and an ex-wife who will be living a few miles away so there will be 1–4 times per week that I’ll need to manage their transport between homes. The kids are the main reason I own a car now.
lostlogin 5mo ago
> the CCP can end BYD in a single weekend Seeing the way tech companies behave makes me think they fear Trump the same way. for example, Tim Apple certainly crawls up Trumps arse.

throwaway_7274 5mo ago

I was glued to the window while flying over southern China recently. There is so much infrastructure you can see from the air, even in fairly rural provinces. So many bridges. So many wind turbines. It is visibly a country on the move, a country that believes in itself and its ability to do things. The Chinese Century is increasingly palpable, for better or worse.

threethirtytwo 5mo ago
A Chinese person who was here in the US as a foreign student once commented to me that he was so surprised that the United States was like the country side. He didn’t realize how rural the country was. This was at UCLA which is in LA which is the second biggest city in the US.
- leereeves 5mo ago
  Presumably referring to population density? People like the low density in California.
- klodolph 5mo ago
  People are also surprised how rural much of China is.
  - jimbob45 5mo ago
    https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/origin.png https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/origin.png Posting the map in case anyone hasn’t seen it.
    - monocasa 5mo ago
      To be fair, six percent is still 84 million people.
    - 10xDev 5mo ago
      Russia, US, Australia, Canada are all like this. Probably many more. The world is a very small place when you look at where most people actually live.

testing22321 5mo ago

Even more so with public transport. In 2008 China had 1,300km of high speed rail. In 2025 they had over 45,000km. Meanwhile America has zero…. But is bringing back the V8! Ye-haw!

b40d-48b2-979e 5mo ago
/insert star wars anakin and padme meme Surely with the cost of fuel skyrocketing we'll pivot to public transit and non-fossil-fuel transport, right? Right?

catigula 5mo ago

>innovating Right. Refining already invented things is 'innovation'.

adgjlsfhk1 5mo ago
that's what most innovation is. the model T wasn't the first car. it was the car that was sufficiently refined to take over.
- catigula 5mo ago
  We have very different definitions of innovation. Respondants: Please, stop lying on the internet. It's not healthy. Stop making things up. Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation Making cars faster or cheaper isn't an "innovation". Making a flying car is innovation. Inventing the car is invention. Systematic government-aided intellectual property theft, lax labor laws, low wages and low standards of living aren't innovative.
  - happosai 5mo ago
    The word you are looking for is "invention". Innovation instead means exactly refining and improving existing things.
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
  - cpursley 5mo ago
    Your understanding of the situation is over a decade out of date. The Chinese are outright innovating at this point, they are well past the copy-paste stage. If you'd like to catch up, this is a good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy/videos https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy/videos And btw, they are making flying cars as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBp96YGStIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBp96YGStIQ
    - 5mo ago

cyanydeez 5mo ago

It's like what happened in the 80's with japanese cars. Except, America's poised to become a oligarchy and will absolute just punch itself in the face rather than let the oligarchy suffer.

Karrot_Kream 5mo ago

> Another example: massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects. You occasionally see a heartwarming post: “California adds solar panels over a canal” and it just looks cute and kind of sad compared to the massive, ambitious, and technologically superior build out of Chinese renewables. Coal is still the majority of generation capacity [1] in China and China continues to build a lot more coal [2] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China [2]: https://apnews.com/article/china-coal-solar-climate-carbon-emissions-242abe76eb69f5a362e977de74ff3254 https://apnews.com/article/china-coal-solar-climate-carbon-e... > BYD has to me become an icon of US decline vs Chinese expansion Is this supposed to help virality or something? "US decline"?

snapcaster 5mo ago
As an american i feel it. have you ever visited China? it's sad man, in more and more industries america is only able to compete by banning china from even contesting the market Not just on dumping or price, actual product quality, innovation and value. It's impossible to visit a Huawei store in Beijing and not feel it in your bones
- Karrot_Kream 5mo ago
  > As an american i feel it How do we have a productive discussion about our feelings on a tech site?
  - surgical_fire 5mo ago
    You start with a non-sequitur on China using coal to generate electricity. Because that, too, is feelings. In this case, insecurity.
    - Karrot_Kream 5mo ago
      > Another example: massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects. You occasionally see a heartwarming post: “California adds solar panels over a canal” and it just looks cute and kind of sad compared to the massive, ambitious, and technologically superior build out of Chinese renewables. EDIT: thanks I didn't realize I forgot to add the context of my original reply to the post. Edited it to add context.

1234letshaveatw 5mo ago

Sounds like wishful and biased thinking, but enjoy your updoots

whatever1 5mo ago

No to me it just shows 2 different capital allocation strategies. China picked manufacturing. US picked datacenters.

mohamedkoubaa 5mo ago
And yet we will do worse in both categories
vkou 5mo ago
If 90% of the data centers in the world were hit by a nuclear bomb tomorrow, communication would be a shit show for a month or two, and then go on, as we'd fall back to simpler, less compute-expensive solutions. We'd also probably be net better off without all the adtech crap. If 90% of the factories in the world were hit by a nuclear bomb, you'd find that your standard of living would immediately, and quite observably plummet. You tell me which is more important. The amount of internet technocrap we actually need to live comfortably is a tiny fraction of what actually gets built. Most of it is in service of adtech, the surveillance state, or shaving 0.5% off some rentseeker's fat margins (on his side, the savings aren't passed on to us).
- notahacker 5mo ago
  Whilst manufacturing has more practical value than much of what's in datacentres[1] it doesn't necessarily follow that it's the more valuable strategic play or route to long term economic growth (bubble or no bubble) Food is more critical to us than Alibaba crap or even top notch smartphones and would be missed rather more if we had a nuclear exchange, but Chinese entrepreneurs would rather own factories exporting manufactured goods than rice paddies, and for good reason. The Chinese government would like to be self sufficient with food production, but unlike many less technologically developed countries it isn't. Most of those countries stay poor though. Food doesn't change or scale as much as manufacturing, which possibly doesn't change as fast or scale as big as compute. Plus in theory at least, some of the compute is being devoted to automating away dependency on offshore labour for manufacturing, although I suspect China is generally ahead in the manufacturing automation areas of AI anyway... [1]I'd rather have kitchen appliances than novelty image generation, spamblogs or ad retargeting, but then again I'd also rather have access to knowledge and communications than plastic toys...

aesch 5mo ago

It seems like BYD is a much bigger threat to Europe (specifically Germany) and Japan. The auto industry is big in the US but an insignificant amount of total exports. Germany and Japan could both lose their cash cows if the Chinese auto industry dominates international sales. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_e...

beardyw 5mo ago
That's not really like with like. If you divided the states in USA into countries, their sales would be "international". The designation is misleading.
- aesch 5mo ago
  The main point is that BYD is an existential threat to Germany and Japan. Per Wikipedia (List of countries by exports + List of countries by vehicle exports, latest available data): - US: ~$144B vehicle exports / ~$3.23T total exports → ~4.5% - Germany: ~$280B / ~$1.99T → ~14% - Japan: ~$151B / ~$922B → ~16% Even if you treat US states as separate 'countries' and balloon the US export denominator further, the ratio doesn't move into the same league. Autos are roughly 3x more important to Germany and ~3.5x more important to Japan as a share of foreign-earned revenue than they are to the US. BYD taking the US auto export share is an inconvenience for a few states. BYD taking Germany's or Japan's is regime-altering for the whole national economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_e... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

threethirtytwo 5mo ago

Another thing overtaking the US is average IQ scores. Both in the current baseline and in rate of change. US has been declining, China has been increasing. > This is to say nothing of the CCP and their record on human rights and free expression. To be very practical here… the lack of rights and freedoms as they exist in China typically has no consequence to the lives of individual people. For example you have no right to protest. But how many of us have exercised that right in the US? Personally I never did. And honestly those protests end up being just parties and parades

bluGill 5mo ago
I write my congressman every few months about something. Sometimes just to send a form letter that one of the various organizations writes for me. I also vote regularly. You should too.
- threethirtytwo 5mo ago
  futile attempts at change. All your work logically amounts to know measurable difference in change. Imagine the counter factual if you didn't vote or write letters. Nothing changes. Your actions are irrational in nature and that is the tragedy of the commons. Additionally because your actions are irrational, the majority of people don't actually exercise the rights you exercise. That again is the tragedy of the commons. So in short I'm still right, and you've proven nothing.
tptacek 5mo ago
I see claims like this all the time on HN. Where is this data supposed to be coming from? When I look it up on Google, I get data ultimately sourced from shady online IQ tests (which nonetheless purport to provide a monotonic ranking of every country in the world from China to Nauru, despite the fact that virtually none of these countries collect IQ scores from their populations). I have no reason to doubt that China is modernizing and improving their gross aptitude for knowledge work! The directional point you're making may very well be valid! I'm just wondering how anyone could be quantifying it in terms of "average IQ", a metric that generally does not exist.

Bombthecat 5mo ago

BYD has to me become an icon of German decline vs Chinese expansion. My view. I was looking at a new car. Went into several car shops, VW, Skoda, Toyota and BYD. And all of them were basically empty and BYD was FULL! Like really really full. And the sales guy confirmed it, they are selling cars like crazy.

electriclove 5mo ago
Which country was this in?
- titanomachy 5mo ago
  Must be EU somewhere, never seen a Skoda anywhere else.
  - michaelhoney 5mo ago
    they're reasonably popular in Australia. They have done a good job of marketing their station wagons/estates to the road-biking community
    - Bombthecat 5mo ago
      The enyaq / elroq is a crazy good car for your money
  - tmnvix 5mo ago
    Plenty in NZ. The police use the wagon. They used to use GM/Holden vehicles but at some point they became the worse choice (reduced headroom in the rear seats amongst other reasons).
- Bombthecat 5mo ago
  Well.. Germany :)
  - electriclove 5mo ago

jancsika 5mo ago

> This is to say nothing of the CCP and their record on human rights and free expression. Just curious-- if you did say something about this, what would it be?

weirdmantis69 5mo ago

lmao. "religious nationalism"? What are you referring to here? The USA's new tighter immigration standards? What pray tell is China's immigration policy? Ignorance? Are you referring to perhaps San Francisco progressives eliminating enhanced schooling because it makes some students feel bad about themselves? https://www.educationnext.org/san-franciscos-detracking-experiment/ https://www.educationnext.org/san-franciscos-detracking-expe... Fear? Oh I know, you are talking about how in blue states they can't even build simple housing never mind mega projects like high speed rail and that's why red states are acquiring population and capital at accelerating speeds. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/02/why-nothing-works-marc-dunkelman/681407/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/02/why-nothin...

mghackerlady 5mo ago
those mega projects are almost always killed by republicans. also, listen to the rhetoric around christianity in republican circles and tell me it isn't religious nationalism
- foobar1274278 5mo ago
  Ah yes, like those dang ol no good reds in single party California, sabotaging their high speed rail project for the past 20 years. 14 billion in the hole and not a single mile of track.
  - mghackerlady 5mo ago
    that was sabotaged by musks hyperloop

WarmWash 5mo ago

The problem the US has, at least in this area, is that it's manufacturing is in the dumps and that's not even plainly bad thing. No US born child in the last 30 years aspired to working a factory job. The US is an advanced economy with advanced jobs. We get degrees, we sit at desks, maybe even sit at home, work on computers, and generate an order of magnitude more wealth than our screw turning counterpart overseas. I can tell you with first hand experience, that this problem is much deeper than "the US needs to catch up" because in reality what is happening is that China is the one playing catch up. The US is already 30 years into the endgame of economic development. China is where the US was 75 years ago, and on paper, the US has only progressed from that point.

elAhmo 5mo ago
> China is where the US was 75 years ago Quite a wild claim
- WarmWash 5mo ago
  It's the progression of countries from agriculture economies to service economies. 1950's US was a manufacturing powerhouse with almost entirely in house supply chains and with heavy public infrastructure drives, not at all unlike China today. But trust me, all those people working in poor conditions for cheap pay in China will do everything they can to ensure their kids don't work those jobs. And just like the US, that fountain of cheap labor will go away and everyone will want their comfy high paying desk job.
  - elAhmo 5mo ago
    A country is more than just its manufacturing industry.
thewebguyd 5mo ago
> We get degrees, we sit at desks, maybe even sit at home, work on computers, and generate an order of magnitude more wealth than our screw turning counterpart overseas Generate wealth for whom, though? That's also ignoring the entire economic underclass that system creates of service & gig workers that can no longer afford to live in the cities in which they work. Not everyone has the ability or desire for knowledge work. The US still needs to catch up too. We have an infrastructure problem. Where is our high speed rail and public transit? Cycling infrastructure? Renewables? Housing in high demand areas? Socialized healthcare? Safety nets for said economic underclass? We are behind in so many ways because we view wealth generation for the top xy% as the only metric of success.

zitterbewegung 5mo ago

38.9% of BYDs direct profits are from subsidies. Tesla subsidies expired already… if we are going to judge on equal footing China is subsidizing a much bigger part of BYDs sales.

SapporoChris 5mo ago
From my understanding China did have subsidies for EVs but that expired last year. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-excludes-evs-latest-five-year-plan-industry-grapples-with-oversupply-2025-10-28/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-...
7734128 5mo ago
Really? I think 38.9% of statistics without sources are made up.

Squarex 5mo ago

And even more an icon of european irrelevance. In Prague almost all EVs are Teslas. I see a BYD time to time. Škoda or Volkswagen almost never.

usrnm 5mo ago
In the Netherlands I see plenty of Renault 5s or VW IDs, many Teslas, too. And almost no BYD
sofixa 5mo ago
As a counterpoint, around 1/3 of EVs I see in France are Renaults. SImilar story, but a bit less evident, in Spain. Both have decent amounts of Hyundai Ioniqs, Teslas, and some BYDs and Dacias. But especially in France, Renault Meganes, 5s and now the 4 is everywhere. Don't forget that "Europe" is actually 30ish (if you count EU) or even more countries (if you count the continent), with wildly different markets and players on them.
- Squarex 5mo ago
  Sure, it could be that in Czechia most EVs owners are still tech fans and they choose Tesla. BYD expands to the EU from the east, so it may overrepresentated here. Škoda apparently has decent electric sales in the Vokswagen group. Just anecdotally something like 80% EVs I see are Teslas.
unclejuan 5mo ago
No wonder, VAG has only produced overpriced cars for a while... I recently helped a friend looking for a brand new SUV in the 70-80,000 euro range (taxes included) and the audi Q5 was both the most expensive and the worst built one in that price range. We checked loads of cars and agreed that the volvo XC60 was arguably the best value for money, the BMW X3 was the one which drove the best (but also the most uncomfortable), the Lexus NX450h was the most comfortable and the best built, the Mercedes GLC was probably the most balanced one (although the value for money wasn't great). The Audi Q5 only stood out for poor build quality and being overpriced. It's literally the only car which we didn't see an upside for, we didn't even bother to test-drive it... Also it seems they aren't very reliable anymore...

strictnein 5mo ago

That's certainly a take. China just has this decades long history of targeting foreign industries, flooding the market with that product, and then being the only one left standing. The idea that we should allow cheap vehicles to flood the domestic market because that will "cause the US auto manufacturers compete" ignores the wholly uneven playing field at work here, and the government backed goal of one side. Just the cost of labor alone makes that not an approachable thing to do. On the reverse "bad" US side, we have more and more international auto manufacturers building and investing in factories in the US every year. Strangely, this decision involves billions of dollars and years of work to make happen. It's not based on internet vibes. And the "renewable" growth is really kind of misleading. They're also building more coal power plants than the rest of the earth, combined, each year. They represent ~50% of the worldwide coal power in use today and produce roughly one third of the total CO2 in the world now, almost 3x that of the US. But I guess the future is government funded undercutting of international competitors, using technology stolen by the government from those competitors, in order to destroy those competitors, while using very dirty and cheap energy to do so? Is that the lesson we're supposed to learn from them?

tredre3 5mo ago
American car manufacturers have extremely small market shares outside N.A., and many (all?) of them required multiple government bailouts over the past few decades. If you think that keeping China is good for the consumer, you'll have to present a stronger case than "we must protect our companies".
- strictnein 5mo ago
  > If you think that keeping [out] China is good for the consumer It would be excellent for the consumer, in the rather short term, to not keep them out. Cheap cars! Cheap goods flooding our markets are great for consumers in the short term. > American car manufacturers have extremely small market shares outside N.A Here's a game: One company is American. The other is not. Company 1 Market Share: North America: 16.5% South America: 8.9% Asia: 7.6% Company 2 Market Share: North America: 14.87% South America: 8.3% Asia: 8.28% Now, without looking, which is the "US company without market share outside of NA", and which is the foreign company that understands how to compete?

malshe 5mo ago

I would support allowing any Chinese automaker in the US if they form a 51:49 joint venture with an American company.

usrnm 5mo ago
Wait, wasn't the free market supposed to be a superior system? You cannot at the same time argue that something is better and wish you didn't have it
- somelamer567 5mo ago
  What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Or just China just deserve special treatment?

stephc_int13 5mo ago

Many predicted it for a long time, the US will always be a great power, for structural and geographical reasons, but it won't keep the position it had for almost a century. The good thing about China is that apart from Taiwan they have little territoral ambitions, I don't foresee huge conflicts incoming, but I am a not entirely sure the US will manage to lost its position as gracefully as the British Empire. It could be bad news for US citizens if their currency precipitiously lose its power, and they'll look for people to blame.

the_gastropod 5mo ago
> The good thing about China is that apart from Taiwan they have little territoral ambitions One of the reasons China wants Taiwan is because it would enable further territorial expansions into The Philippines and Japan. China considers any neighboring Democratic nation a threat. Taiwan is just their first / easiest prospective target. If you have access to PBS, there's a very good documentary that touches on this a bit called Invisible Nation.

mschuster91 5mo ago

> BYD has to me become an icon of US decline vs Chinese expansion. It’s just one example among many of China charting the way forward and innovating while the US recedes further into backward-looking, protectionist policy. See: US politicians on both sides trying to ban BYD imports rather than incentivizing stiffer competition from US automakers. The problem is, China isn't competing fairly! As a Western manufacturer, bound to well-paying union labor and environmental protection laws, and restricted by the mechanisms of the free markets, you cannot compete with a country that employs all sorts of labor abuses (from complete ignorance about OSHA and its national equivalents over 996 work model to outright forced labor and slavery), completely wrecks its own environment and provides virtually unlimited financial funds to its companies in its quest to achieve dominance. China is inarguably the biggest threat the entire rest of the world faces and barely anyone is even seeing the dangers.

tartoran 5mo ago
How did it get here though? The west basically handed them everything on a plate and gutted the domestic industries for a quick profit. What next?

sourcegrift 5mo ago

China harvests organs of muslims. China doesn't allow LGBTQ representation on public media. China forcibly married uyghur women to handle men. It's important to remember the whole global picture before we take sides.

FireBeyond 5mo ago
> China doesn't allow LGBTQ representation on public media. And several US states are inching closer to making being some of those letters, particularly the T, outright illegal.
- sourcegrift 5mo ago
  [flagged]

sfjailbird 5mo ago

> This is to say nothing of the CCP and their record on human rights The U.S. record on human rights is horrific, if you see it from a global perspective (which you should). China is a saint in comparison.

dyauspitr 5mo ago

It makes sense to ban BUD imports but don’t you dare try and both sides this argument by saying EV and renewable power strategy are the same on both sides.

tim333 5mo ago

One thing China did which was smart was to start training thousands of engineers about twenty years ago, about 10x the number of US engineering graduates. That's paying off now. It was also a little sad to see the treatment of Tesla by Biden. It was the world's leading EV company at the time but he excluded from EV get togethers because he wanted the unionised companies like GM to win. I think that sort of thing - protecting mediocre incumbents that contribute to the right politicians didn't help. Musk was a dem at the time but after that flipped to Trump and went a bit off the rails.

deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

dzhiurgis 5mo ago

Left in US sneer at technocrats but absolutely gobble up their products with gusto.

willio58 5mo ago

In some ways it’s sad to see, but I’d be lying to say I didn’t have a little happiness seeing the actions of politicians in the U.S. catch up with them. It’s like there was this belief, we are the most powerful country in the world and we can do whatever we want. Meanwhile we see countries very much question that as we flounder in the Middle East for the umpteenth time in a few decades. We see countries start to get away from the dollar, we see countries call out our military leaders for poor planning. It’s not like the American public deserve this, but America itself might.

seanmcdirmid 5mo ago

I never really expected the USA to allow low tariff Chinese car imports since China has been very protective of their own car market over the last couple of decades. I did expect BYD to set up some factories in the USA (or Canada Mexico when NAFTA was still a thing) to make their EVs for the American markets (should be affordable in a third world state like Mississippi), just like the Japanese auto manufacturers did. It’s sad that we aren’t getting that anytime soon. America has simply forgot how to build real things on a schedule and on a budget. Our only real niche now is software (with help from Indian and Chinese talent) and locked down tech that China will eventually figure out. It’s very hard to not be pessimistic about the direction the USA is going and I can see why people elected someone horrible like Trump (he promised a way out, even if it was a stupid way out that would never work).

baranul 5mo ago

A key point is whether a government actually cares about its citizens and their future, which also creates a side benefit for humanity in general. It's not quite nationalism or maybe the term is being used as a disguise for something else, if those in power believe 50% or even the majority of their own population is not worth worrying about, should be "thrown away", or "removed". Out of control elitism and corruption, combined with lack of empathy and narcissism, can very easily undermine human rights, freedom, and national progress.

raxxorraxor 5mo ago

BYD is successful because they are cheap. For most people cars are simple utilities. But countries either need to be protectionist or you need to lower production costs to a Chinese level. That means workers only earn the same as a Chinese worker. You could also collect import taxes, but I think people simply cannot or don't want to afford a car that is much more expensive. Some decry Chinese government subsidies for cars, but the truth is that these exist in western nations as well. They are sometimes indirect, but the end result is the same. The secret to cheap prices is simple labor costs. Commonly refereed to as race to the bottom and not a new topic/problem. Car makers in countries with high labor costs could maybe pivot to luxury cars... otherwise the result of the competition is already determined. In 50 years China will have the same problem with other countries that produce even cheaper. That is already happening and for quite a few years already. Taxes would probably be the best solution, but they have become politicised and weaponised.

Yizahi 5mo ago

Oh, don't worry. I'm sure Mr. Stable Orange will follow the tradition and institute a Capybara tax soon, forbidding import of any foreign EV smaller than 2 meters wide and 7 meters long and having a fully enclosed body. That will show those libruls :) .