4 ms·

You’re ignoring how much of a role the TF2 hats played in pushing microtransaction skins. Steam came out in 2003. TF2 hats came out in 2009. It’s lived in th

You’re ignoring how much of a role the TF2 hats played in pushing microtransaction skins. Steam came out in 2003. TF2 hats came out in 2009. It’s lived in the world of micro transactions way longer than it lived in the before times.

regularfry 5mo ago
2013 rather than 2009, I think? The pyro dropped in 2010, and I'm pretty certain hats came later.
- Polycryptus 5mo ago
  I'd call crates the beginning, and those came with the Mann-conomy update in 2010.
georgeecollins 5mo ago
I think you are blaming Valve for forces way beyond Valve's control. Valve isn't perfect, but it is a way better steward for PC gaming and PC gamers than any other American tech company would be.
- Cpoll 5mo ago
  It's harder to say that when they invented loot crates. Sure everyone's doing it now, and someone else would've done it eventually, but Valve pioneered it. I suppose, yeah, some things would be a lot worse without Steam, so there's that.
  - Melatonic 5mo ago
    You could also argue loot crates are just the digital version of Pokémon card packs
    - perryprog 5mo ago
      You could, but that doesn't make /either/ an acceptable to market towards kids.
      - georgeecollins 5mo ago
        Yeah, because that would be like selling packs of baseball cards to kids with enticements like chewing gum, a practice that was outlawed in the United States in the 1950's.
        wtetzner 5mo ago
        Was it outlawed in the 50s? I remember getting baseball cards with gum in the 90s...
    - wmeredith 5mo ago
      Eh, Topps did in the 1950s and The American Tobacco company did it in 1909.
  - georgeecollins 5mo ago
    Yes, I was there. I sat through a presentation about their original concept for selling content in Team Fortress. Trust me when I say that it turned out nothing like they originally conceived of-- which is a whole different story. The whole idea that they "invented" loot crates is weird because the idea goes back to collectable card games and other things. I am not saying they are without fault.
    - Pay08 5mo ago
      And various games from Asia were already doing lootboxes in video game form since about the time Valve was founded.
  - po1nt 5mo ago
    That is not true. Gachapon mechanics existed long before, valve only took it to western market, not knowing the consequences. Remember this is way before gambling sites. It was a way to earn a cool random hat on TF2.
    - Cpoll 5mo ago
      I'm aware of what Korean MMOs were doing years earlier, but it feels different, in a way I can't quite put into words. I suspect there's a psychological aspect to earning the chest and buying the key. But yeah, maybe I'm pushing a distinction that doesn't exist, and it's all just forms of trading cards (which themselves were popularized by tobacco companies).
      - po1nt 5mo ago
        I feel like it's innocent and we made it into what it is. If valve was the first one to bring cactus plant to the people and we started pleasuring ourself with it. It wouldn't be Valve's fault. In the end it's like trading cards. Way to collect a cool cosmetic that doesn't break the game and trade it with people, making a community and new friends. We made it into "buy 20 spins"
    - account42 5mo ago
      > not knowing the consequences Yeah right, they just accidentally massively profit from it. Come on dude, Valve has behavioral psychologists on staff. They don't just accidentally abuse players.
      - po1nt 5mo ago
        They are for profit business. Even grocery chains have behavioral psychologists. Valve doesn't run the gambling sites, they even tried to stop it multiple times. [1][2] Valve doesn't pocket anything from the direct trade. Their cut is the same regardless the selling price of an item, except when traded through steam marketplace. The only benefit valve stands to gain from this is the free marketing. Their business in this sense is not much different from trading cards, except the goods are digital. [1] https://www.hltv.org/news/43421/valve-bans-skins-gambling-case-opening-sites-from-jerseys-and-events-in-tor https://www.hltv.org/news/43421/valve-bans-skins-gambling-ca... [2] https://www.polygon.com/2017/1/30/14440958/team-fortress-2-gambling-sites-blocked-valve/ https://www.polygon.com/2017/1/30/14440958/team-fortress-2-g...
nmfisher 5mo ago
As much as I like Valve, it's difficult to ignore how large a part they played in shifting the PC market towards F2P. I bought TF2 with the Orange Box, and for a few years it was amazing. Then it went F2P with hats, and overnight the player base turned into a cesspit (and the hats themselves completely ruined the aesthetic that they spent years painstakingly crafting).

regularfry 5mo ago

2013 rather than 2009, I think? The pyro dropped in 2010, and I'm pretty certain hats came later.

Polycryptus 5mo ago
I'd call crates the beginning, and those came with the Mann-conomy update in 2010.

georgeecollins 5mo ago

I think you are blaming Valve for forces way beyond Valve's control. Valve isn't perfect, but it is a way better steward for PC gaming and PC gamers than any other American tech company would be.

Cpoll 5mo ago
It's harder to say that when they invented loot crates. Sure everyone's doing it now, and someone else would've done it eventually, but Valve pioneered it. I suppose, yeah, some things would be a lot worse without Steam, so there's that.
- Melatonic 5mo ago
  You could also argue loot crates are just the digital version of Pokémon card packs
  - perryprog 5mo ago
    You could, but that doesn't make /either/ an acceptable to market towards kids.
    - georgeecollins 5mo ago
      Yeah, because that would be like selling packs of baseball cards to kids with enticements like chewing gum, a practice that was outlawed in the United States in the 1950's.
      - wtetzner 5mo ago
        Was it outlawed in the 50s? I remember getting baseball cards with gum in the 90s...
  - wmeredith 5mo ago
    Eh, Topps did in the 1950s and The American Tobacco company did it in 1909.
- georgeecollins 5mo ago
  Yes, I was there. I sat through a presentation about their original concept for selling content in Team Fortress. Trust me when I say that it turned out nothing like they originally conceived of-- which is a whole different story. The whole idea that they "invented" loot crates is weird because the idea goes back to collectable card games and other things. I am not saying they are without fault.
  - Pay08 5mo ago
    And various games from Asia were already doing lootboxes in video game form since about the time Valve was founded.
- po1nt 5mo ago
  That is not true. Gachapon mechanics existed long before, valve only took it to western market, not knowing the consequences. Remember this is way before gambling sites. It was a way to earn a cool random hat on TF2.
  - Cpoll 5mo ago
    I'm aware of what Korean MMOs were doing years earlier, but it feels different, in a way I can't quite put into words. I suspect there's a psychological aspect to earning the chest and buying the key. But yeah, maybe I'm pushing a distinction that doesn't exist, and it's all just forms of trading cards (which themselves were popularized by tobacco companies).
    - po1nt 5mo ago
      I feel like it's innocent and we made it into what it is. If valve was the first one to bring cactus plant to the people and we started pleasuring ourself with it. It wouldn't be Valve's fault. In the end it's like trading cards. Way to collect a cool cosmetic that doesn't break the game and trade it with people, making a community and new friends. We made it into "buy 20 spins"
  - account42 5mo ago
    > not knowing the consequences Yeah right, they just accidentally massively profit from it. Come on dude, Valve has behavioral psychologists on staff. They don't just accidentally abuse players.
    - po1nt 5mo ago
      They are for profit business. Even grocery chains have behavioral psychologists. Valve doesn't run the gambling sites, they even tried to stop it multiple times. [1][2] Valve doesn't pocket anything from the direct trade. Their cut is the same regardless the selling price of an item, except when traded through steam marketplace. The only benefit valve stands to gain from this is the free marketing. Their business in this sense is not much different from trading cards, except the goods are digital. [1] https://www.hltv.org/news/43421/valve-bans-skins-gambling-case-opening-sites-from-jerseys-and-events-in-tor https://www.hltv.org/news/43421/valve-bans-skins-gambling-ca... [2] https://www.polygon.com/2017/1/30/14440958/team-fortress-2-gambling-sites-blocked-valve/ https://www.polygon.com/2017/1/30/14440958/team-fortress-2-g...

nmfisher 5mo ago

As much as I like Valve, it's difficult to ignore how large a part they played in shifting the PC market towards F2P. I bought TF2 with the Orange Box, and for a few years it was amazing. Then it went F2P with hats, and overnight the player base turned into a cesspit (and the hats themselves completely ruined the aesthetic that they spent years painstakingly crafting).