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I didn’t expect to open the comments and find people who were pro beating children on Hacker News. I find this abuse horrific and you should speak to a therapis

I didn’t expect to open the comments and find people who were pro beating children on Hacker News. I find this abuse horrific and you should speak to a therapist if you think this is okay. Absolutely barbaric behavior.

noworriesnate 5mo ago
Pain is a highly evolved way of telling humans to change their behavior. Why would we choose not to use such an excellent tool, within reasonable boundaries? Also, do you think the victims of bullies have a pleasant experience? Being merciful to the bullies enables them and is cruel to their victims.
- oompydoompy74 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - elevation 5mo ago
    Deterrent can be an effective form of rehab. A former coworker of mine walks funny because he had polio as a child, and his father worked for the railway union after WWII. He told me one day in high school, one of his friends came to school with bruises couldn’t hide, inflicted by his drunk father. Everyone in school knew, everyone in town knew, but no one did anything. My coworker informed his dad, about the egregious injuries that day. His dad drove to the drunk man’s house and knocked on the door and seized the drunk man by the collar: “if you ever touch that boy again, I’ll kill you.” The threat must have been believable coming from a rail union worker, because it rehabilitated the recipient’s decision making processes going forward.
    - jitler 5mo ago
      > My coworker informed his dad, about the egregious injuries that day. His dad drove to the drunk man’s house and knocked on the door and seized the drunk man by the collar: “if you ever touch that boy again, I’ll kill you.” Yeah that wouldn’t fly nowadays. Your friend’s father would be hot with a slew of charges from “terroristic threats” to “meanacing”
    - lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
      And today the drunk father would lose the responsibility for his child which is a better and non violent answer.
      - elevation 5mo ago
        > father would lose the responsibility for his child This HN discussion of systemic abuse in US Catholic orphanages last century also discusses vast, documented ongoing abuse in both religious and state run care/foster systems around the globe. Statistically, these systems cause more abuse than they prevent, and should only be a last resort. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17852129 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17852129
        lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
        Why do you assume that it works such in America = world wide? I was in such a system but I was a relief. But not America
        elevation 5mo ago
        I'm not an expert in all nations but systemic abuse in abuse prevention systems is not uniquely american. For instance, the British care system seems consistent with American results - a Brit I talked to told me that in year, roughly 1 in 2 children report sexual abuse at the hands of their caretaker or an older child. It's hard to tell the extent of the unreported abuses. And yet, widespread abuses doesn't preclude the possibility of children escaping unharmed. I'm glad you made it through.
        lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
        This is a horrendous rate. But given the discussion context the success rate of a punch into the face of an alcoholic father is less than 50 % (I claim that given my knowledge with alcoholism) so even the bad British system is better. Also given the lack of scandals in the German system (better most scandals are about how the system wasn't strict enough against abusive parents) I see it is clearly possible to build a better system.
    - BobaFloutist 5mo ago
      > He told me one day in high school, one of his friends came to school with bruises couldn’t hide, inflicted by his drunk father. Sorry, you're telling this story as a way of supporting beating kids...?
  - jitler 5mo ago
    > Rehabilitation and figuring out why they are bullying is the correct response in a civilized society. Your so called “civilized societies” have continuously failed at this though. You can’t keep failing and then demand your method is the correct method.
    - lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
      How Germany or Denmark or Sweden failed?
      - deleted 5mo ago
        [deleted]
      - aeve890 5mo ago
        >How Germany Do you really need examples of Germany failing as a civilized society?
        lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
        Id like to hear. At least people aren't beaten up by teachers or in custody.
        kuerbel 5mo ago
        I hope you know that there are Germans on this site, so don't try any fox news bullshit.
        aeve890 5mo ago
        Geez so this is the German sense of humor. Fox news bullshit? Come on.
        defrost 5mo ago
        Generically the term also includes Ellison news bullshit.
        5mo ago
  - ThrowawayR2 5mo ago
    > "Rehabilitation and figuring out why they are bullying is the correct response in a civilized society." Then why doesn't the "correct response" work in practice? We are clearly not seeing its effectiveness in real life.
  - Ekaros 5mo ago
    Yes. I think bullying should automatically lead to bully being shipped to suitable facility where they are rehabilited. It must be done to protect other children. Best way is to remove the perpetrator not the victim. Adults and evil monsters should stop excusing bullying with something like bad home conditions. If home conditions are bad remove them from that home. Or at least remove them from places where they can cause suffering to others.
- altmanaltman 5mo ago
  Yeah its so evolved. But then why limit it to children? Why shouldn't your boss be allowed to beat the shit out of you so it sends a signal you need to change your behavior? There is a massive leap between "let them bully other kids" and "we have to cane them" and pretending like only pain is the solution, especially in case of children where bullying is often a second order effect, is sick.
  - noworriesnate 5mo ago
    I do agree we shouldn't limit it to children! But I don't think the boss/employee relationship should involve violence though because firing someone is simple and effective. But if someone is doing something bad for their community that has no obvious other consequences? Then yeah, it absolutely should be an option. These rules should be implemented locally at a town or city level. No need to enforce the same set of rules across all society. And it's interesting you bring up that bullying is a second order affect. If one of the parents is abusive, that should be something that has physical consequences. Solve the problem at the source, stop wringing our hands and getting lawyers / police involved for everything. That's not scalable and as a result there are a bunch of unsolvable problems in our society today.
    - altmanaltman 5mo ago
      I don't understand your view here. You want people to take care of problems/injusitice by violence but you also want this violence to be limited to "someone doing something bad for their community"? How can that be enforced at all. Like if you are doing something good for your community, the other community feels slighted and gets a free pass to... beat you? Like I dont understand what you're saying at all because it seems like you want the social contract but also give anyone the agency to conduct violence and both cannot exists at the same time. We live in communities and created the police and law precisely because personal grudges and fights cannot scale and work to be a functional society. God i hope you are trolling
      - noworriesnate 5mo ago
moralestapia 5mo ago
>beating children >I find this abuse horrific >barbaric behavior. Absolutely! We're all against bullying here.
cedws 5mo ago
After seeing with my own two eyes how soft touch policing and parenting leads to a shitty society for everyone I’m completely in favour of this. Singapore, Japan, among other Asian countries are safe and prosperous for a reason - if you do no wrong, you have nothing to fear. In London we recently had a swarm of youths raid supermarkets and shoplift. Most of them got off scot free. Even tenured criminals are getting out after a few months of jail time in the UK now because the prisons are full. I’m done with the pathetic soft touch approaches. I want to live in a high trust society. Second, third, and fourth chances aren’t the way to get there. You have to make them learn the first time.
- everforward 5mo ago
  It won’t work, we have literal piles of research showing that severity of punishment is not an effective deterrent, and to an incredible degree for children. They tend to either not think of consequences, or have youthful hubris and be certain they won’t get caught (even when they have in the past, I got spanked numerous times for the same exact things). I would go so far as to bet it will have the opposite effect. Nothing legitimizes using violence to affect the behavior of others like the state doing it to you. I doubt they have the introspection to recognize the difference between state and personal violence, the message they’ll get is “might makes right”. Those countries have structurally different cultures, economies and governments. Eg Singapore has a median household income that rivals or exceeds the US, in a part of the world where that makes them fabulously wealthy compared to their neighbors. That alone is a huge crime deterrent; why steal stuff you could just buy off whatever their Amazon is? They’re also a fairly small island, so it’s way easier to control drugs getting in. TLDR Singapore and Japan have low crime rates that likely have nothing to do with severe punishments.
  - cedws 5mo ago
    Assuming these sociological studies are robust (which they're likely not as sociological studies have poor reproducibility) am I also supposed to reject the evidence of my eyes and ears? Families have been destroyed by terrorism in the UK, by terrorists who have been given second and third chances. To link this back to the original topic: discipline of children is part of a wider topic of how as a society we discipline those who fall out of line. Discipline in society determines the kind of future we're shaping for ourselves.
walletdrainer 5mo ago
A few days ago an older teenager tried to steal my phone on the street, I kicked the shit out of him. What else should I have done? Just let the kid take the next guys phone? If I’d called the police, they’d almost certainly have told me on the phone to let the shouting kid go. There would have been zero consequences for him, and possibly some for me. I genuinely did that kid a favour.
- lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
  In Germany you can force somebody to stay until police arrives but unnecessary violence is forbidden
  - walletdrainer 5mo ago
    And what’d be the point? The police will not be interested in the would-be phone thief, calling them would be of negative value to society.
    - deleted 5mo ago
      [deleted]
    - lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
      Why do you think?
    - AshleyGrant 5mo ago
      So, because there is a failure of policing in your locale, we should simply resort to vigilante justice? Looks to me like you should be pissed off at the police in your locale for forcing you to fend for yourself against criminals.
      - gottorf 5mo ago
        Applying physical force to counter in the moment someone that tries to rob you is not vigilante justice. That would be more like if you had your phone robbed, and a few days later you went with your buddies to beat him up and get your phone back. The former is just maintenance of basic civic standards.
davyAdewoyin 5mo ago
I find this attitude completely western and out of touch with culture and actual experience of people living in a society that operate differently. In my own personal and shared experience; having grown up in a culture where corporal punishment is a given. You found out it can be administered in the most humane way possible. And as a matter of fact, a couple minute after the entire thing you are back to talking with friends and siblings and laughing it off. Sure, I didn't love being caned, nor did anyone I knew, but I will say it was a more effective and better guide towards good behaviour than words alone or other approaches Nobody I have met loved being canned as a child, and at the same time no one turned out worst from it. And as much as Africa seems to be a lawless place, schools are very orderly; bullying by peers is rare, students generally do not exhibit anti-social, rebellious or rude behaviors to teachers or parents. I'm certain the views of people who grew up in Africa and certain part of Asia, where caning is still practised, will be quite different from those of people who didn't. P.S. My views are on parents and teachers caning kids or young teenagers.
- Arodex 5mo ago
  >And as much as Africa seems to be a lawless place, schools are very orderly; bullying by peers is rare, students generally do not exhibit anti-social, rebellious or rude behaviors to teachers or parents. And then, when they become adults... Have you never wondered why those "perfectly fine" children become such corrupt adults?
  - davyAdewoyin 5mo ago
    I'm pretty sure the proportion of corrupt people in any country will be pretty similar if the right structures are put to place. I think people give in to corruption when the system favors regardless of the country or continents and as a matter of fact a lot of people in government and places of power in my country were foreign schooled or bred.
1718627440 5mo ago
Locking people in a room also isn't pleasant, yet we allow it, because we think it has a deterring effect. Hitting people with sticks or tear gas, forcing there limbs together with steel also isn't very nice. Neither is forcing people in a plane and sending them off into dangerous environments just because they happen to be born there.
- Tadpole9181 5mo ago
  Locking criminals away to protect innocent people is different than caning and you know that. And I'm pretty sure the type of person speaking out against outdated, abusive child rearing doesn't support the use of cudgels or tear gas in law enforcement or unsafe/cruel deportation.
  - 1718627440 5mo ago
    > Locking criminals away to protect innocent people is different than caning and you know that. In my jurisdiction prison sentences and imprisonment for public protection are different things, and only the latter is to protect innocent people. It is also pretty rare. Most prison sentences are, because society 'thinks' the aspiring prisoner deserves it, not because the public needs to be protected. Also penalties also fulfill the desire of the society for vengeance. I think, being locked in isolation or with very dangerous individuals can leave deeper scars than a short period of violence. It's also not, like people in general never have any injuries, so it's not the pain itself that is an uncommon experience, but more the knowledge of it being linked to your actions. People don't have traumas just because they walked through nettles, feel from their bicycle or broke their legs. > And I'm pretty sure the type of person speaking out against outdated, abusive child rearing doesn't support the use of cudgels or tear gas in law enforcement or unsafe/cruel deportation. That's nice, but I think he still has an amount of accepted violence by the state, because the policy of 'I don't give a fuck, let the strongest do what he likes' doesn't actually lead to less violence. I just want to point out, how it is not necessarily a black or white thing, I'm not arguing for child abuse.
  - JuniperMesos 5mo ago
    > Locking criminals away to protect innocent people is different than caning and you know that. No, I don't think it is different. Both are applications of state violence for enforcing laws. I think it would be reasonable to use (public) caning as a judicial punishment in the US for certain kinds of crimes, for the same reason I think it is reasonable to use incarceration as a judicial punishment in the US for other types of crimes.
dogleash 5mo ago
>I find this abuse horrific and you should speak to a therapist if you think this is okay. This is unintentionally hilarious. You're not arguing the moral point, you're using the same kind of reasoning that leads to gay conversion therapy. It roughly equates to: "that's not in accord with my social norms, therefore you need professional intervention." (Perfunctory disclaimer that I don't support caning. I am not arguing for it, I am only pointing out problems with a statement against it.)
- oompydoompy74 5mo ago
  [flagged]
cindyllm 5mo ago
[dead]
rvnx 5mo ago
Well, think of it like this: these teenagers take pleasure harming defenseless animals. They like to torture them psychologically and physically, precisely because they are defenseless. Well, these animals are just big animals: human. It means: they find it fun so they actually enjoy harming humans. This is precisely the reason for bullying. Punishing these behaviors early, and you might actually stop this pleasure-loop and send a signal to all people around that it is a not a good idea. In addition, you may prevent escalation to worse crimes. Once you do a crime, then crime+1 is maybe ok. If crime+1 is maybe ok, then crime+2, etc.
- oompydoompy74 5mo ago
  Most bullies are responding to a poor home life where they are bullied and beaten.
  - badboysg 5mo ago
    [dead]
- BobaFloutist 5mo ago
  Pithy version: Hitting kids to show them that hitting other kids is wrong? Less pithy version: The message you send by beating kids, is that violence is wrong unless you're big and strong enough and have enough authority that nobody can stop you. This is not a good way to get kids to be less violent, it just teaches them to be more calculated in their violence.
  - lurking_swe 5mo ago
    another take: some people are emotionally “dumb” and have a really hard time feeling empathy for others. This is just another way to force the bully to be in someone else’s shoes…literally.
dang 5mo ago
I'm sure there are a few such comments, since you say so, but I read most of the thread and didn't see any.
- jrflowers 5mo ago
  lmao the person you’re responding to didn’t say that anybody was breaking the rules, they just pointed out that there’s a lot of people here pontificating on the side of the merits of violence against children You can post anything on hacker news if you phrase it right. Sometimes the mods will even pop in and interject unprompted that it’s all good so long as nobody is saying swears https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48035090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48035090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48060620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48060620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48036265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48036265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48058102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48058102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48065636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48065636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48036672 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48036672 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48063728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48063728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48063439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48063439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48059347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48059347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48058017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48058017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48058265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48058265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48035671 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48035671 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48036627 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48036627
  - dang 5mo ago
    Since we've been through this before I think I'll just link to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47734762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47734762.
    - jrflowers 5mo ago
      Wait did you see the links in that post? It’s about all those people advocating beating children in this thread
ergocoder 5mo ago
> who were pro beating children Correction: pro beating abusers.
userbinator 5mo ago
What about the "barbaric" "horric" "abuse" these victims of bullying are being subjected to? Idiots siding with criminals and not victims is why society is so fucked up.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
krackers 5mo ago
Half-serious thought: Would giving them an appropriately sized dose LSD (with proper setting/supervision) or similar thing be a better alternative? If the issue is lack of empathy for others isn't this a much better solution that actually fixes the root cause instead of papering things over. Maybe caning might fix the superficial symptom, but those people may well end up as sociopath CEOs or something or find other ways to gain satisfaction from asserting their power (just look at the state of the world, you can be a "bully" in many other ways than physical ones).
- ekaryotic 5mo ago
  James "Whitey" Bulger was given LSD in exchange for a reduced prison sentence after some low level crime. He went on to work as a professional hitman, taking out politicians and trafficking drugs. LSD does work for things such as alcoholism, but MDMA is usually used in treatment programmes as it doesn't have such life changing mental effects.
bluealienpie 5mo ago
Sadly, I think you need to look at opinions outside where you live. I thought that a 6 foot 2 man smacking his child to ground so hard she couldn't hear would be a crime. Only to be told that it was only a crime if he closed his fist in Florida.

noworriesnate 5mo ago

Pain is a highly evolved way of telling humans to change their behavior. Why would we choose not to use such an excellent tool, within reasonable boundaries? Also, do you think the victims of bullies have a pleasant experience? Being merciful to the bullies enables them and is cruel to their victims.

oompydoompy74 5mo ago
[flagged]
- elevation 5mo ago
  Deterrent can be an effective form of rehab. A former coworker of mine walks funny because he had polio as a child, and his father worked for the railway union after WWII. He told me one day in high school, one of his friends came to school with bruises couldn’t hide, inflicted by his drunk father. Everyone in school knew, everyone in town knew, but no one did anything. My coworker informed his dad, about the egregious injuries that day. His dad drove to the drunk man’s house and knocked on the door and seized the drunk man by the collar: “if you ever touch that boy again, I’ll kill you.” The threat must have been believable coming from a rail union worker, because it rehabilitated the recipient’s decision making processes going forward.
  - jitler 5mo ago
    > My coworker informed his dad, about the egregious injuries that day. His dad drove to the drunk man’s house and knocked on the door and seized the drunk man by the collar: “if you ever touch that boy again, I’ll kill you.” Yeah that wouldn’t fly nowadays. Your friend’s father would be hot with a slew of charges from “terroristic threats” to “meanacing”
  - lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
    And today the drunk father would lose the responsibility for his child which is a better and non violent answer.
    - elevation 5mo ago
      > father would lose the responsibility for his child This HN discussion of systemic abuse in US Catholic orphanages last century also discusses vast, documented ongoing abuse in both religious and state run care/foster systems around the globe. Statistically, these systems cause more abuse than they prevent, and should only be a last resort. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17852129 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17852129
      - lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
        Why do you assume that it works such in America = world wide? I was in such a system but I was a relief. But not America
        elevation 5mo ago
        I'm not an expert in all nations but systemic abuse in abuse prevention systems is not uniquely american. For instance, the British care system seems consistent with American results - a Brit I talked to told me that in year, roughly 1 in 2 children report sexual abuse at the hands of their caretaker or an older child. It's hard to tell the extent of the unreported abuses. And yet, widespread abuses doesn't preclude the possibility of children escaping unharmed. I'm glad you made it through.
        lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
        This is a horrendous rate. But given the discussion context the success rate of a punch into the face of an alcoholic father is less than 50 % (I claim that given my knowledge with alcoholism) so even the bad British system is better. Also given the lack of scandals in the German system (better most scandals are about how the system wasn't strict enough against abusive parents) I see it is clearly possible to build a better system.
  - BobaFloutist 5mo ago
    > He told me one day in high school, one of his friends came to school with bruises couldn’t hide, inflicted by his drunk father. Sorry, you're telling this story as a way of supporting beating kids...?
- jitler 5mo ago
  > Rehabilitation and figuring out why they are bullying is the correct response in a civilized society. Your so called “civilized societies” have continuously failed at this though. You can’t keep failing and then demand your method is the correct method.
  - lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
    How Germany or Denmark or Sweden failed?
    - deleted 5mo ago
      [deleted]
    - aeve890 5mo ago
      >How Germany Do you really need examples of Germany failing as a civilized society?
      - lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
        Id like to hear. At least people aren't beaten up by teachers or in custody.
      - kuerbel 5mo ago
        I hope you know that there are Germans on this site, so don't try any fox news bullshit.
        aeve890 5mo ago
        Geez so this is the German sense of humor. Fox news bullshit? Come on.
        defrost 5mo ago
        Generically the term also includes Ellison news bullshit.
      - 5mo ago
- ThrowawayR2 5mo ago
  > "Rehabilitation and figuring out why they are bullying is the correct response in a civilized society." Then why doesn't the "correct response" work in practice? We are clearly not seeing its effectiveness in real life.
- Ekaros 5mo ago
  Yes. I think bullying should automatically lead to bully being shipped to suitable facility where they are rehabilited. It must be done to protect other children. Best way is to remove the perpetrator not the victim. Adults and evil monsters should stop excusing bullying with something like bad home conditions. If home conditions are bad remove them from that home. Or at least remove them from places where they can cause suffering to others.
altmanaltman 5mo ago
Yeah its so evolved. But then why limit it to children? Why shouldn't your boss be allowed to beat the shit out of you so it sends a signal you need to change your behavior? There is a massive leap between "let them bully other kids" and "we have to cane them" and pretending like only pain is the solution, especially in case of children where bullying is often a second order effect, is sick.
- noworriesnate 5mo ago
  I do agree we shouldn't limit it to children! But I don't think the boss/employee relationship should involve violence though because firing someone is simple and effective. But if someone is doing something bad for their community that has no obvious other consequences? Then yeah, it absolutely should be an option. These rules should be implemented locally at a town or city level. No need to enforce the same set of rules across all society. And it's interesting you bring up that bullying is a second order affect. If one of the parents is abusive, that should be something that has physical consequences. Solve the problem at the source, stop wringing our hands and getting lawyers / police involved for everything. That's not scalable and as a result there are a bunch of unsolvable problems in our society today.
  - altmanaltman 5mo ago
    I don't understand your view here. You want people to take care of problems/injusitice by violence but you also want this violence to be limited to "someone doing something bad for their community"? How can that be enforced at all. Like if you are doing something good for your community, the other community feels slighted and gets a free pass to... beat you? Like I dont understand what you're saying at all because it seems like you want the social contract but also give anyone the agency to conduct violence and both cannot exists at the same time. We live in communities and created the police and law precisely because personal grudges and fights cannot scale and work to be a functional society. God i hope you are trolling
    - noworriesnate 5mo ago

moralestapia 5mo ago

>beating children >I find this abuse horrific >barbaric behavior. Absolutely! We're all against bullying here.

cedws 5mo ago

After seeing with my own two eyes how soft touch policing and parenting leads to a shitty society for everyone I’m completely in favour of this. Singapore, Japan, among other Asian countries are safe and prosperous for a reason - if you do no wrong, you have nothing to fear. In London we recently had a swarm of youths raid supermarkets and shoplift. Most of them got off scot free. Even tenured criminals are getting out after a few months of jail time in the UK now because the prisons are full. I’m done with the pathetic soft touch approaches. I want to live in a high trust society. Second, third, and fourth chances aren’t the way to get there. You have to make them learn the first time.

everforward 5mo ago
It won’t work, we have literal piles of research showing that severity of punishment is not an effective deterrent, and to an incredible degree for children. They tend to either not think of consequences, or have youthful hubris and be certain they won’t get caught (even when they have in the past, I got spanked numerous times for the same exact things). I would go so far as to bet it will have the opposite effect. Nothing legitimizes using violence to affect the behavior of others like the state doing it to you. I doubt they have the introspection to recognize the difference between state and personal violence, the message they’ll get is “might makes right”. Those countries have structurally different cultures, economies and governments. Eg Singapore has a median household income that rivals or exceeds the US, in a part of the world where that makes them fabulously wealthy compared to their neighbors. That alone is a huge crime deterrent; why steal stuff you could just buy off whatever their Amazon is? They’re also a fairly small island, so it’s way easier to control drugs getting in. TLDR Singapore and Japan have low crime rates that likely have nothing to do with severe punishments.
- cedws 5mo ago
  Assuming these sociological studies are robust (which they're likely not as sociological studies have poor reproducibility) am I also supposed to reject the evidence of my eyes and ears? Families have been destroyed by terrorism in the UK, by terrorists who have been given second and third chances. To link this back to the original topic: discipline of children is part of a wider topic of how as a society we discipline those who fall out of line. Discipline in society determines the kind of future we're shaping for ourselves.

walletdrainer 5mo ago

A few days ago an older teenager tried to steal my phone on the street, I kicked the shit out of him. What else should I have done? Just let the kid take the next guys phone? If I’d called the police, they’d almost certainly have told me on the phone to let the shouting kid go. There would have been zero consequences for him, and possibly some for me. I genuinely did that kid a favour.

lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
In Germany you can force somebody to stay until police arrives but unnecessary violence is forbidden
- walletdrainer 5mo ago
  And what’d be the point? The police will not be interested in the would-be phone thief, calling them would be of negative value to society.
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
  - lava_pidgeon 5mo ago
    Why do you think?
  - AshleyGrant 5mo ago
    So, because there is a failure of policing in your locale, we should simply resort to vigilante justice? Looks to me like you should be pissed off at the police in your locale for forcing you to fend for yourself against criminals.
    - gottorf 5mo ago
      Applying physical force to counter in the moment someone that tries to rob you is not vigilante justice. That would be more like if you had your phone robbed, and a few days later you went with your buddies to beat him up and get your phone back. The former is just maintenance of basic civic standards.

davyAdewoyin 5mo ago

I find this attitude completely western and out of touch with culture and actual experience of people living in a society that operate differently. In my own personal and shared experience; having grown up in a culture where corporal punishment is a given. You found out it can be administered in the most humane way possible. And as a matter of fact, a couple minute after the entire thing you are back to talking with friends and siblings and laughing it off. Sure, I didn't love being caned, nor did anyone I knew, but I will say it was a more effective and better guide towards good behaviour than words alone or other approaches Nobody I have met loved being canned as a child, and at the same time no one turned out worst from it. And as much as Africa seems to be a lawless place, schools are very orderly; bullying by peers is rare, students generally do not exhibit anti-social, rebellious or rude behaviors to teachers or parents. I'm certain the views of people who grew up in Africa and certain part of Asia, where caning is still practised, will be quite different from those of people who didn't. P.S. My views are on parents and teachers caning kids or young teenagers.

Arodex 5mo ago
>And as much as Africa seems to be a lawless place, schools are very orderly; bullying by peers is rare, students generally do not exhibit anti-social, rebellious or rude behaviors to teachers or parents. And then, when they become adults... Have you never wondered why those "perfectly fine" children become such corrupt adults?
- davyAdewoyin 5mo ago
  I'm pretty sure the proportion of corrupt people in any country will be pretty similar if the right structures are put to place. I think people give in to corruption when the system favors regardless of the country or continents and as a matter of fact a lot of people in government and places of power in my country were foreign schooled or bred.

1718627440 5mo ago

Locking people in a room also isn't pleasant, yet we allow it, because we think it has a deterring effect. Hitting people with sticks or tear gas, forcing there limbs together with steel also isn't very nice. Neither is forcing people in a plane and sending them off into dangerous environments just because they happen to be born there.

Tadpole9181 5mo ago
Locking criminals away to protect innocent people is different than caning and you know that. And I'm pretty sure the type of person speaking out against outdated, abusive child rearing doesn't support the use of cudgels or tear gas in law enforcement or unsafe/cruel deportation.
- 1718627440 5mo ago
  > Locking criminals away to protect innocent people is different than caning and you know that. In my jurisdiction prison sentences and imprisonment for public protection are different things, and only the latter is to protect innocent people. It is also pretty rare. Most prison sentences are, because society 'thinks' the aspiring prisoner deserves it, not because the public needs to be protected. Also penalties also fulfill the desire of the society for vengeance. I think, being locked in isolation or with very dangerous individuals can leave deeper scars than a short period of violence. It's also not, like people in general never have any injuries, so it's not the pain itself that is an uncommon experience, but more the knowledge of it being linked to your actions. People don't have traumas just because they walked through nettles, feel from their bicycle or broke their legs. > And I'm pretty sure the type of person speaking out against outdated, abusive child rearing doesn't support the use of cudgels or tear gas in law enforcement or unsafe/cruel deportation. That's nice, but I think he still has an amount of accepted violence by the state, because the policy of 'I don't give a fuck, let the strongest do what he likes' doesn't actually lead to less violence. I just want to point out, how it is not necessarily a black or white thing, I'm not arguing for child abuse.
- JuniperMesos 5mo ago
  > Locking criminals away to protect innocent people is different than caning and you know that. No, I don't think it is different. Both are applications of state violence for enforcing laws. I think it would be reasonable to use (public) caning as a judicial punishment in the US for certain kinds of crimes, for the same reason I think it is reasonable to use incarceration as a judicial punishment in the US for other types of crimes.

dogleash 5mo ago

>I find this abuse horrific and you should speak to a therapist if you think this is okay. This is unintentionally hilarious. You're not arguing the moral point, you're using the same kind of reasoning that leads to gay conversion therapy. It roughly equates to: "that's not in accord with my social norms, therefore you need professional intervention." (Perfunctory disclaimer that I don't support caning. I am not arguing for it, I am only pointing out problems with a statement against it.)

oompydoompy74 5mo ago
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cindyllm 5mo ago

[dead]

rvnx 5mo ago

Well, think of it like this: these teenagers take pleasure harming defenseless animals. They like to torture them psychologically and physically, precisely because they are defenseless. Well, these animals are just big animals: human. It means: they find it fun so they actually enjoy harming humans. This is precisely the reason for bullying. Punishing these behaviors early, and you might actually stop this pleasure-loop and send a signal to all people around that it is a not a good idea. In addition, you may prevent escalation to worse crimes. Once you do a crime, then crime+1 is maybe ok. If crime+1 is maybe ok, then crime+2, etc.

oompydoompy74 5mo ago
Most bullies are responding to a poor home life where they are bullied and beaten.
- badboysg 5mo ago
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BobaFloutist 5mo ago
Pithy version: Hitting kids to show them that hitting other kids is wrong? Less pithy version: The message you send by beating kids, is that violence is wrong unless you're big and strong enough and have enough authority that nobody can stop you. This is not a good way to get kids to be less violent, it just teaches them to be more calculated in their violence.
- lurking_swe 5mo ago
  another take: some people are emotionally “dumb” and have a really hard time feeling empathy for others. This is just another way to force the bully to be in someone else’s shoes…literally.

dang 5mo ago

I'm sure there are a few such comments, since you say so, but I read most of the thread and didn't see any.

jrflowers 5mo ago
lmao the person you’re responding to didn’t say that anybody was breaking the rules, they just pointed out that there’s a lot of people here pontificating on the side of the merits of violence against children You can post anything on hacker news if you phrase it right. Sometimes the mods will even pop in and interject unprompted that it’s all good so long as nobody is saying swears https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48035090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48035090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48060620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48060620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48036265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48036265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48058102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48058102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48065636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48065636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48036672 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48036672 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48063728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48063728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48063439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48063439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48059347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48059347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48058017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48058017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48058265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48058265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48035671 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48035671 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48036627 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48036627
- dang 5mo ago
  Since we've been through this before I think I'll just link to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47734762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47734762.
  - jrflowers 5mo ago
    Wait did you see the links in that post? It’s about all those people advocating beating children in this thread

ergocoder 5mo ago

> who were pro beating children Correction: pro beating abusers.

userbinator 5mo ago

What about the "barbaric" "horric" "abuse" these victims of bullying are being subjected to? Idiots siding with criminals and not victims is why society is so fucked up.

deleted 5mo ago
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krackers 5mo ago

Half-serious thought: Would giving them an appropriately sized dose LSD (with proper setting/supervision) or similar thing be a better alternative? If the issue is lack of empathy for others isn't this a much better solution that actually fixes the root cause instead of papering things over. Maybe caning might fix the superficial symptom, but those people may well end up as sociopath CEOs or something or find other ways to gain satisfaction from asserting their power (just look at the state of the world, you can be a "bully" in many other ways than physical ones).

ekaryotic 5mo ago
James "Whitey" Bulger was given LSD in exchange for a reduced prison sentence after some low level crime. He went on to work as a professional hitman, taking out politicians and trafficking drugs. LSD does work for things such as alcoholism, but MDMA is usually used in treatment programmes as it doesn't have such life changing mental effects.

bluealienpie 5mo ago

Sadly, I think you need to look at opinions outside where you live. I thought that a 6 foot 2 man smacking his child to ground so hard she couldn't hear would be a crime. Only to be told that it was only a crime if he closed his fist in Florida.