5 ms·

I think it's dehumanizing. Yes, they have accents. English isn't their first language. TELUS decided to move jobs they could have given to Canadians offshore to

by nunez 6mo ago

I think it's dehumanizing. Yes, they have accents. English isn't their first language. TELUS decided to move jobs they could have given to Canadians offshore to save a buck or two. We're already conditioned to treat service reps like punching bags; now we're literally taking away their voices and further devaluing them. Not okay.

Sophira 6mo ago
On the one hand, I agree with you, and your reasoning is self-evident IMO. On the other, too many customers are complete racist dicks to people who they perceive as not "belonging to their country". I... don't think this is the solution to that problem (people will just start applying their racist views elsewhere), but it could be argued by some that it might help. I'm still against this, don't get me wrong - we absolutely should not be doing this to anybody. I can understand the appeal, though.
- frays 6mo ago
  Not sure why you're being downvoted but this is the truth if you live in a western country (probably other countries too but I have never lived outside of a non-Western country).
- ffsm8 6mo ago
  > On the other, too many customers are complete racist dicks to people who they perceive as not "belonging to their country" nunez alluded to the reason why people will do that. And no, it's not racist in the way you're trying to frame it. The callers are angry that they're being forced to talk with people which don't even speak their language well enough for it to be a non-issue. Despite being paying customers. Because the company had a genius MBA which wanted a bigger bonus, so they outsourced/offshored it. These workers may not deserve this treatment, but it's completely understandable - and the foreign workers ARE the representative of the company doing this shit. And thus... Framing this behavior as racism will not help your message whatsoever.
  - thedevilslawyer 6mo ago
    Would the cuwotmers also be willing to pay 2x the price for the product or service? These decisions do not happen in a vacuum.
    - ffsm8 6mo ago
      What a strawman 1. The price would not be double. It'd be at most a marginal change. No company I've ever seen has more the a single digit percentage of their revenue in customer service 2. The customer was never given the decision wherever theyd be willing to pay ~1-5% more for better service, hence entirely useless to discuss 3. How the hell do you think that makes the people calling customer service racist? Or was my comment too challenging for you to read and comprehend?
    - throw0101c 6mo ago
      > Would the cuwotmers also be willing to pay 2x the price for the product or service? Would the executives, especially the C-suite, be willing to make $8M instead of only $10M in salary and bonuses?
  - aceofspades19 6mo ago
    You're making the assumption people with accents are necessarily foreign-based workers. You can be a US or Canadian citizen and have an accent. I worked in a call center in Canada servicing Americans, I was born in Canada and lived here my entire life and I can assure you I definitely sound canadian but customer still accused me of being located in India, a place I have never even visited. So I don't think customer opinions on the matter are 100% justified and fair.
    - ffsm8 6mo ago
      > So I don't think customer opinions on the matter are 100% justified and fair. Neither do I though? I said it's understandable. Abusing people - even just verbally - is pretty much never justifiable. But that still doesn't make the people doing so racist. They're just angry (justifiable) and venting it at the representative of the company they're angry about (less so). Framing this issue as racist will just alienate all discourse, that was my point.
- crote 6mo ago
  Or perhaps you treat the customer support workers as humans instead of worker drones and give them the agency to terminate the call when they are getting abused, with the contracts of repeat offenders getting terminated?
Cthulhu_ 6mo ago
For India, English is an official (government) language; it may not be their first but they're really good at it. But, heavily accented, not unlike other English native speakers, and the less exposure one has to the accent the harder it is to understand. (Americans will have trouble with British accents that aren't london too)
- torginus 6mo ago
  Dunno, a ton of UK born and raised people have accents so thick that I struggle to make out what they're saying.
  - alberto467 6mo ago
    And i honestly don't think they would get hired for a call center job.
  - SkyeCA 6mo ago
    I am from a Canadian maritime province. I have had Americans (particularly from the south) who at least claimed they couldn't easily understand me, despite me understanding them just fine.
    - bonesss 6mo ago
      I had a Newfie friend from a Newfie family growing up, all good no problem. The Newfie barber they introduced me to I had to smile and nod because I couldn’t understand a word he said. And neither could they. There are accents and then there’s accints.
  - Bombthecat 6mo ago
    Agree! I play destiny in a clan, most of them are from UK. I don't understand a single word from some of them...
- cassianoleal 6mo ago
  > heavily accented, not unlike other English native speakers One could just as well argue the opposite position.
rdevilla 6mo ago
[flagged]
- redsocksfan45 6mo ago
  [dead]
- Zach_the_Lizard 6mo ago
  I had a Southern accent and had to train it out because my northern colleagues kept making fun of it. I noticed that I was perceived as "smarter" without it. My story is not exactly uncommon and there are a bunch of famous people (e.g. Stephen Colbert) who did the same thing.
  - dgellow 6mo ago
    The technology discussed here is reinforcing that stereotype
    - xienze 6mo ago
      It has less to do with reinforcing stereotypes and more with fooling customers into thinking the company they're trying to get support from isn't so fucking cheap that they won't spring for tech support workers in a first world country.
  - nunez 6mo ago
    Wait until they find out that Huntsville, AL is basically an enclave for rocket scientists.
    - Zach_the_Lizard 6mo ago
      Some of them rocket scientists double down on the accent in Hunts-vuhl. Sadly, the You Must Be Ignorant lot is as ignorant of that conclave of cosmic capsule constructors as it is of the proper pronunciation of y'all
- modo_mario 6mo ago
jhanschoo 6mo ago
I don't understand the locus of the arrangement/decision that you find dehumanizing. There are several distinct ways I perceive how someone might find aspects of such an arrangement and change of arrangement dehumanizing, and I shall list them out, though I may or may not subscribe to them (for the purpose of this comment, I am assuming Filipino call center contractors, though one may substitute in any other country where the population knows English and jobs are outsourced to): - Is it dehumanizing to Filipinos that Filipinos probably now do their job more efficiently without having to learn an accent that they are not exposed to? - Is it dehumanizing to Filipinos that they no longer enjoy having their accent heard as a externality of a counterfactual arrangement? - Is it dehumanizing to the customers that the company does not expect their customers to be cosmopolitan enough to understand a foreign accent with ease? - Is it dehumanizing to the customers that the customers are now more sensorily shielded from a current-day reality regarding globalized providers of service? - Is it dehumanizing, not due to this decision itself; but the globalized arrangement, to Canadians that they cannot expect to hold such a job and get by in Canada? Or perhaps to Filipinos, that such a job might be low-paying in their own country (or in respect to non-domestic goods that need to be purchased from outside their polity)? - Is it dehumanizing, regarding not this decision, but the offshoring decision, that such decisions can be made without consent by employees and contractors?
- Mordisquitos 6mo ago
  I am not impacted by this issue on either side, but I am in the "dehumanising" camp, so here are my opinions: > Is it dehumanizing to Filipinos that Filipinos probably now do their job more efficiently without having to learn an accent that they are not exposed to? It's already demeaning to expect them to "learn an accent", unless their job description is to literally pretend they are from a different culture (e.g. if they were actors). Introducing an "AI" middleman to change their voice is demeaning and dehumanising. > Is it dehumanizing to Filipinos that they no longer enjoy having their accent heard as a externality of a counterfactual arrangement? It is dehumanising to any person that their own human voice is no longer heard when performing a job involving human contact. > Is it dehumanizing to the customers that the company does not expect their customers to be cosmopolitan enough to understand a foreign accent with ease? Not quite dehumanising, but it is certainly patronising that the company has an opinion as to what voice their customers can or cannot understand. And if the company is hiring customer service agents whose accents are a serious hinderance to understanding, I would argue that their hires are not likely to accurately understand the very customers they are supposed to assist. >Is it dehumanizing to the customers that the customers are now more sensorily shielded from a current-day reality regarding globalized providers of service? Not dehumanising, but again patronising, and also disrespectful and borderline dishonest. I won't get into the final two points, as those are prior to the accent-middleman "AI".
high_na_euv 6mo ago
So, better if they have no jobs because of things that arent under their control? Technology is supposed to make life easier and better
mekoka 6mo ago
I'm unclear as to where your outrage is directed. Is it that they give jobs offshore? Or rather that those who get them are now victim of their original accent not being heard by Canadians?
throw0101c 6mo ago
> We're already conditioned to treat service reps like punching bags; now we're literally taking away their voices and further devaluing them. I've tried to keep the habit of talking about things in the third-person when I'm on the phone with someone: instead of saying "you messed up the billing" I say "BigCo messed up the billing". It's a small mental reminder that it's not the fault of the person I just happen to be talking to.
- shermantanktop 6mo ago
  I just tell them “I know this not your fault.” I worked in a call center. You quickly develop an emotional rhino hide or you won’t make it.
rexpop 6mo ago
Literally the thesis of Sorry to Bother You (2018).
- hdndjsbbs 6mo ago
  Boots Riley is one of the most underrated American artists of our time. "I'm a Virgo" is also great if you haven't seen it.
furyofantares 6mo ago
I think there can be a nuanced take here. If I have a hard time with accents and someone has a thick accent, the technology is not too different from the sci-fi babblefish concept, automatic translation for the recipient. It is always presented as an enabling technology. I have no expectation that sci-fi analysis of a potential technology is correct or complete. But I do think we can think about why this feels so different. In this case I think neither recipient nor speaker has opted in, and I think deceptively at that. It would feel different if the recipient is turning on an assistive technology because they are having a hard time understanding, or if the speaker is turning on an assistive technology because they are having a hard time doing their job.
fennecbutt 6mo ago
But is it only dehumanising in the context of the western world and generally high migration numbers in that direction vs. the opposite direction? Are you going to also fight the good fight for Chinese and Japanese depictions of and reactions to black people, for example? Because those caricatures are certainly worse. But I think so long as people are given the choice it's not dehumanising at all. Just like how I choose to speak a little slower if speaking to someone who doesn't speak English very well when it becomes clear they're struggling to follow what I'm saying. So in a way it's actually more human than completely ignoring the reality of a situation like that. Same as that first human binding the leg of another.

by nunez 6mo ago

Sophira 6mo ago

On the one hand, I agree with you, and your reasoning is self-evident IMO. On the other, too many customers are complete racist dicks to people who they perceive as not "belonging to their country". I... don't think this is the solution to that problem (people will just start applying their racist views elsewhere), but it could be argued by some that it might help. I'm still against this, don't get me wrong - we absolutely should not be doing this to anybody. I can understand the appeal, though.

frays 6mo ago
Not sure why you're being downvoted but this is the truth if you live in a western country (probably other countries too but I have never lived outside of a non-Western country).
ffsm8 6mo ago
> On the other, too many customers are complete racist dicks to people who they perceive as not "belonging to their country" nunez alluded to the reason why people will do that. And no, it's not racist in the way you're trying to frame it. The callers are angry that they're being forced to talk with people which don't even speak their language well enough for it to be a non-issue. Despite being paying customers. Because the company had a genius MBA which wanted a bigger bonus, so they outsourced/offshored it. These workers may not deserve this treatment, but it's completely understandable - and the foreign workers ARE the representative of the company doing this shit. And thus... Framing this behavior as racism will not help your message whatsoever.
- thedevilslawyer 6mo ago
  Would the cuwotmers also be willing to pay 2x the price for the product or service? These decisions do not happen in a vacuum.
  - ffsm8 6mo ago
    What a strawman 1. The price would not be double. It'd be at most a marginal change. No company I've ever seen has more the a single digit percentage of their revenue in customer service 2. The customer was never given the decision wherever theyd be willing to pay ~1-5% more for better service, hence entirely useless to discuss 3. How the hell do you think that makes the people calling customer service racist? Or was my comment too challenging for you to read and comprehend?
  - throw0101c 6mo ago
    > Would the cuwotmers also be willing to pay 2x the price for the product or service? Would the executives, especially the C-suite, be willing to make $8M instead of only $10M in salary and bonuses?
- aceofspades19 6mo ago
  You're making the assumption people with accents are necessarily foreign-based workers. You can be a US or Canadian citizen and have an accent. I worked in a call center in Canada servicing Americans, I was born in Canada and lived here my entire life and I can assure you I definitely sound canadian but customer still accused me of being located in India, a place I have never even visited. So I don't think customer opinions on the matter are 100% justified and fair.
  - ffsm8 6mo ago
    > So I don't think customer opinions on the matter are 100% justified and fair. Neither do I though? I said it's understandable. Abusing people - even just verbally - is pretty much never justifiable. But that still doesn't make the people doing so racist. They're just angry (justifiable) and venting it at the representative of the company they're angry about (less so). Framing this issue as racist will just alienate all discourse, that was my point.
crote 6mo ago
Or perhaps you treat the customer support workers as humans instead of worker drones and give them the agency to terminate the call when they are getting abused, with the contracts of repeat offenders getting terminated?

Cthulhu_ 6mo ago

For India, English is an official (government) language; it may not be their first but they're really good at it. But, heavily accented, not unlike other English native speakers, and the less exposure one has to the accent the harder it is to understand. (Americans will have trouble with British accents that aren't london too)

torginus 6mo ago
Dunno, a ton of UK born and raised people have accents so thick that I struggle to make out what they're saying.
- alberto467 6mo ago
  And i honestly don't think they would get hired for a call center job.
- SkyeCA 6mo ago
  I am from a Canadian maritime province. I have had Americans (particularly from the south) who at least claimed they couldn't easily understand me, despite me understanding them just fine.
  - bonesss 6mo ago
    I had a Newfie friend from a Newfie family growing up, all good no problem. The Newfie barber they introduced me to I had to smile and nod because I couldn’t understand a word he said. And neither could they. There are accents and then there’s accints.
- Bombthecat 6mo ago
  Agree! I play destiny in a clan, most of them are from UK. I don't understand a single word from some of them...
cassianoleal 6mo ago
> heavily accented, not unlike other English native speakers One could just as well argue the opposite position.

rdevilla 6mo ago

[flagged]

redsocksfan45 6mo ago
[dead]
Zach_the_Lizard 6mo ago
I had a Southern accent and had to train it out because my northern colleagues kept making fun of it. I noticed that I was perceived as "smarter" without it. My story is not exactly uncommon and there are a bunch of famous people (e.g. Stephen Colbert) who did the same thing.
- dgellow 6mo ago
  The technology discussed here is reinforcing that stereotype
  - xienze 6mo ago
    It has less to do with reinforcing stereotypes and more with fooling customers into thinking the company they're trying to get support from isn't so fucking cheap that they won't spring for tech support workers in a first world country.
- nunez 6mo ago
  Wait until they find out that Huntsville, AL is basically an enclave for rocket scientists.
  - Zach_the_Lizard 6mo ago
    Some of them rocket scientists double down on the accent in Hunts-vuhl. Sadly, the You Must Be Ignorant lot is as ignorant of that conclave of cosmic capsule constructors as it is of the proper pronunciation of y'all
modo_mario 6mo ago

jhanschoo 6mo ago

I don't understand the locus of the arrangement/decision that you find dehumanizing. There are several distinct ways I perceive how someone might find aspects of such an arrangement and change of arrangement dehumanizing, and I shall list them out, though I may or may not subscribe to them (for the purpose of this comment, I am assuming Filipino call center contractors, though one may substitute in any other country where the population knows English and jobs are outsourced to): - Is it dehumanizing to Filipinos that Filipinos probably now do their job more efficiently without having to learn an accent that they are not exposed to? - Is it dehumanizing to Filipinos that they no longer enjoy having their accent heard as a externality of a counterfactual arrangement? - Is it dehumanizing to the customers that the company does not expect their customers to be cosmopolitan enough to understand a foreign accent with ease? - Is it dehumanizing to the customers that the customers are now more sensorily shielded from a current-day reality regarding globalized providers of service? - Is it dehumanizing, not due to this decision itself; but the globalized arrangement, to Canadians that they cannot expect to hold such a job and get by in Canada? Or perhaps to Filipinos, that such a job might be low-paying in their own country (or in respect to non-domestic goods that need to be purchased from outside their polity)? - Is it dehumanizing, regarding not this decision, but the offshoring decision, that such decisions can be made without consent by employees and contractors?

Mordisquitos 6mo ago
I am not impacted by this issue on either side, but I am in the "dehumanising" camp, so here are my opinions: > Is it dehumanizing to Filipinos that Filipinos probably now do their job more efficiently without having to learn an accent that they are not exposed to? It's already demeaning to expect them to "learn an accent", unless their job description is to literally pretend they are from a different culture (e.g. if they were actors). Introducing an "AI" middleman to change their voice is demeaning and dehumanising. > Is it dehumanizing to Filipinos that they no longer enjoy having their accent heard as a externality of a counterfactual arrangement? It is dehumanising to any person that their own human voice is no longer heard when performing a job involving human contact. > Is it dehumanizing to the customers that the company does not expect their customers to be cosmopolitan enough to understand a foreign accent with ease? Not quite dehumanising, but it is certainly patronising that the company has an opinion as to what voice their customers can or cannot understand. And if the company is hiring customer service agents whose accents are a serious hinderance to understanding, I would argue that their hires are not likely to accurately understand the very customers they are supposed to assist. >Is it dehumanizing to the customers that the customers are now more sensorily shielded from a current-day reality regarding globalized providers of service? Not dehumanising, but again patronising, and also disrespectful and borderline dishonest. I won't get into the final two points, as those are prior to the accent-middleman "AI".

high_na_euv 6mo ago

So, better if they have no jobs because of things that arent under their control? Technology is supposed to make life easier and better

mekoka 6mo ago

I'm unclear as to where your outrage is directed. Is it that they give jobs offshore? Or rather that those who get them are now victim of their original accent not being heard by Canadians?

throw0101c 6mo ago

> We're already conditioned to treat service reps like punching bags; now we're literally taking away their voices and further devaluing them. I've tried to keep the habit of talking about things in the third-person when I'm on the phone with someone: instead of saying "you messed up the billing" I say "BigCo messed up the billing". It's a small mental reminder that it's not the fault of the person I just happen to be talking to.

shermantanktop 6mo ago
I just tell them “I know this not your fault.” I worked in a call center. You quickly develop an emotional rhino hide or you won’t make it.

rexpop 6mo ago

Literally the thesis of Sorry to Bother You (2018).

hdndjsbbs 6mo ago
Boots Riley is one of the most underrated American artists of our time. "I'm a Virgo" is also great if you haven't seen it.

furyofantares 6mo ago

I think there can be a nuanced take here. If I have a hard time with accents and someone has a thick accent, the technology is not too different from the sci-fi babblefish concept, automatic translation for the recipient. It is always presented as an enabling technology. I have no expectation that sci-fi analysis of a potential technology is correct or complete. But I do think we can think about why this feels so different. In this case I think neither recipient nor speaker has opted in, and I think deceptively at that. It would feel different if the recipient is turning on an assistive technology because they are having a hard time understanding, or if the speaker is turning on an assistive technology because they are having a hard time doing their job.

fennecbutt 6mo ago

But is it only dehumanising in the context of the western world and generally high migration numbers in that direction vs. the opposite direction? Are you going to also fight the good fight for Chinese and Japanese depictions of and reactions to black people, for example? Because those caricatures are certainly worse. But I think so long as people are given the choice it's not dehumanising at all. Just like how I choose to speak a little slower if speaking to someone who doesn't speak English very well when it becomes clear they're struggling to follow what I'm saying. So in a way it's actually more human than completely ignoring the reality of a situation like that. Same as that first human binding the leg of another.