5 ms·

As a senior developer, 25+ years, I have been thrown recently into a meeting "hey can you join in for 5 mins". I really don't like these meetings where you're d

by keyle 5mo ago

As a senior developer, 25+ years, I have been thrown recently into a meeting "hey can you join in for 5 mins". I really don't like these meetings where you're dragged in in the middle of them without any clue. The questions came flying in fast, without any introduction, and this was about an external integration out of a dozen. They have their own lingo, different from ours, to make the situation worse. I had a _very hard time_ making sense of the questions, as I indeed relied heavily on a model to produce these integrations (extremely boring job + external thick specs provided). I'm still positive these would have simply not happened in a 10x the time if I did not use models, however, I'm now carefuly considering re-documenting the "ohhs" and "aahs" of these so that these kind of uncomfortable moments never happen again. I haven't felt so clueless and embarassed in a meeting, ever. All I could say was "I'll get back to you on that one, and that one, and this one". Cognitive debt is very real, and it hurts worse than technical debt on a personal level! Tech debt is shared across the team, cognitive debt is personal, and when you're the guy that built the thing, you should know better! To be continued... But from now on, the work isn't done if I don't get a little 5 mins flash-card type markdown list of "what is this" and "what is that", type glossary.

ryandrake 5mo ago
What kind of place do you work where you get dragged into a meeting halfway through and then are peppered with technical questions without context, that you're expected to answer on the spot? Please let us know because I'm sure a lot of us want to avoid such a place. "I'll need to study the docs and code to answer these questions properly" is a perfectly fine (and very diplomatic) response to treatment like that.
- pkthunder 5mo ago
  Not OP, but similar context (~20yr exp.). You absolutely can get away with "I'll need to dig more into this to give you a good answer" but you are _for sure_ expected to have at least some answer ready-to-go. Especially if it's under your purview.
- marcosdumay 5mo ago
  From the way it's written, looks like it's his code that he wrote recently. It's quite common to search for the author of a piece of code to ask questions about that code.
- solenoid0937 5mo ago
  This can happen more or less anywhere if you spend enough time at a company. At some point you'll get pulled into a meeting like this because others think you're in expert in a codebase/area you're not.
  - djmips 5mo ago
    Like if your the manager of a group and you do little code writing.
- keyle 5mo ago
  Startup life man. Happy to help, just rough sometimes.
- WD-42 5mo ago
  I don’t think it was made clear: the questions were about the code op “wrote” but they used a llm so couldn’t remember any of it. Probably got there from a git blame. This happens.
- furyofantares 5mo ago
  The implication is that, in the past, such a meeting would be fine, because they're an expert in what they've authored. It's "hey can you join for 5 minutes" because, in the past, they'd have had deep knowledge off the top of their head of the things they'd committed under their name. But now they're not an expert in the code they've recently committed. Maybe that's OK and expectations need to change, but I'd bet there are a lot of cases where the organization really wants to produce a (code, expert-in-the-code) pair, and should be willing to pay a little time to do that over producing just (code, guy-who-prompted-it).
- childintime 5mo ago
  > "I'll need to study the docs and code to answer these questions properly" is a perfectly fine (and very diplomatic) response to treatment like that. By the time you said that, the AI could have given the 80% answer. So, no, this is no longer an adequate response. The right response would have been to take your tools and give an informed opinion on the AI answer, right there.
  - anon7725 5mo ago
    What are “your tools”? Many (most?) meaningful questions cannot be answered while you stall for time on a call. Or do you just mean ask an LLM the question and regurgitate its answer?
  - lelanthran 5mo ago
    > So, no, this is no longer an adequate response. The right response would have been to take your tools and give an informed opinion on the AI answer, right there. If the AI could answer the questions, why would they ask OP about it?
josephg 5mo ago
> As a senior developer, 25+ years, I have been thrown recently into a meeting "hey can you join in for 5 mins". This is a common thing doctors complain about. Patients come in, saying they just need a prescription for some drug or other. Good doctors often refuse to give any drugs or any advice until they understand the whole situation properly. If you're a senior developer, you're the one who has to push back against behaviour you don't like. You have the authority. "Hm, interesting question. I'm going to need more context before I can give you my point of view. Can you give me a quick overview of the system architecture / explain what actual problems you're trying to solve with this approach?"
- komali2 5mo ago
  > Can you give me a quick overview of the system architecture I think what the OP is saying is that it's the OP's job to know that, and didn't, because they over leverage the LLM. Like if a doctor was brought in on a cardio consult on their patient because they had a maybe unrelated heart condition, and the only thing they could answer to "why did you prescribe cemidine instead of decimine" is "lemme get back to you on that."
- ryandrake 5mo ago
  > This is a common thing doctors complain about. Patients come in, saying they just need a prescription for some drug or other. Off topic, but this must be a USA-specific problem, where prescription drugs are actually marketed at Joe consumer. I think there is maybe one other country where this insane practice is allowed. Nowhere else are patients told to “Ask your doctor about Procrapin for your irritable bowl syndrome!!”
  - bigthymer 5mo ago
    While prescription drug marketing to consumers is an issue in the US, I think the actual problem in this situation is people Googling their issue then coming to the doctor with the conclusion of their investigation instead of letting the doctor do the investigation themselves.
    - 5mo ago
chaidhat 5mo ago
I think that in an AI-native company, the people asking the question should be using their own set of the AI to query the codebase, before coming to ask you. The problem that you describe seems to be more relevant to an organization which has not fully embraced AI yet.
- otabdeveloper4 5mo ago
  > AI-native company No such thing. The AI hype bubble is only a couple years old, and will not last a couple years more.
xg15 5mo ago
> To be continued... But from now on, the work isn't done if I don't get a little 5 mins flash-card type markdown list of "what is this" and "what is that", type glossary. Easy, just have the agent write them for you at the end, then never read them... (/joking)
utopiah 5mo ago
Back to 2014 with this 7min "The Expert" skit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg Not the kind of meetings I enjoy where basically expertise isn't seen as something to build on but rather just (creative) confirmation bias.
maxrev17 5mo ago
I’d just say to this.. who cares, drop the ego. The tool was used and if you didn’t use it you’d be in worse trouble. I just say I dno I’ll ask the AI… easy :D
- keyle 5mo ago
  Thanks, that's an interesting take from all that I've read. If you're happy for me to do the job in 1/10th of the time, be happy with me not being fully across it on a whim.
  - whattheheckheck 5mo ago
    Dr. Chuck from python for everyone course said the same thing.
  - intrinsicallee 5mo ago
    If the new way and speed of working makes you deploy things that you then become the bottleneck on the organizational knowledge of, and now the organization is running things in production that you have to go chase down details about and blocking other people, it seems like you just moved the problem from "needing time to do work properly" to "doing work then needing time to do it properly" which seems to me like a tremendous increase liability.

by keyle 5mo ago

ryandrake 5mo ago

What kind of place do you work where you get dragged into a meeting halfway through and then are peppered with technical questions without context, that you're expected to answer on the spot? Please let us know because I'm sure a lot of us want to avoid such a place. "I'll need to study the docs and code to answer these questions properly" is a perfectly fine (and very diplomatic) response to treatment like that.

pkthunder 5mo ago
Not OP, but similar context (~20yr exp.). You absolutely can get away with "I'll need to dig more into this to give you a good answer" but you are _for sure_ expected to have at least some answer ready-to-go. Especially if it's under your purview.
marcosdumay 5mo ago
From the way it's written, looks like it's his code that he wrote recently. It's quite common to search for the author of a piece of code to ask questions about that code.
solenoid0937 5mo ago
This can happen more or less anywhere if you spend enough time at a company. At some point you'll get pulled into a meeting like this because others think you're in expert in a codebase/area you're not.
- djmips 5mo ago
  Like if your the manager of a group and you do little code writing.
keyle 5mo ago
Startup life man. Happy to help, just rough sometimes.
WD-42 5mo ago
I don’t think it was made clear: the questions were about the code op “wrote” but they used a llm so couldn’t remember any of it. Probably got there from a git blame. This happens.
furyofantares 5mo ago
The implication is that, in the past, such a meeting would be fine, because they're an expert in what they've authored. It's "hey can you join for 5 minutes" because, in the past, they'd have had deep knowledge off the top of their head of the things they'd committed under their name. But now they're not an expert in the code they've recently committed. Maybe that's OK and expectations need to change, but I'd bet there are a lot of cases where the organization really wants to produce a (code, expert-in-the-code) pair, and should be willing to pay a little time to do that over producing just (code, guy-who-prompted-it).
childintime 5mo ago
> "I'll need to study the docs and code to answer these questions properly" is a perfectly fine (and very diplomatic) response to treatment like that. By the time you said that, the AI could have given the 80% answer. So, no, this is no longer an adequate response. The right response would have been to take your tools and give an informed opinion on the AI answer, right there.
- anon7725 5mo ago
  What are “your tools”? Many (most?) meaningful questions cannot be answered while you stall for time on a call. Or do you just mean ask an LLM the question and regurgitate its answer?
- lelanthran 5mo ago
  > So, no, this is no longer an adequate response. The right response would have been to take your tools and give an informed opinion on the AI answer, right there. If the AI could answer the questions, why would they ask OP about it?

josephg 5mo ago

> As a senior developer, 25+ years, I have been thrown recently into a meeting "hey can you join in for 5 mins". This is a common thing doctors complain about. Patients come in, saying they just need a prescription for some drug or other. Good doctors often refuse to give any drugs or any advice until they understand the whole situation properly. If you're a senior developer, you're the one who has to push back against behaviour you don't like. You have the authority. "Hm, interesting question. I'm going to need more context before I can give you my point of view. Can you give me a quick overview of the system architecture / explain what actual problems you're trying to solve with this approach?"

komali2 5mo ago
> Can you give me a quick overview of the system architecture I think what the OP is saying is that it's the OP's job to know that, and didn't, because they over leverage the LLM. Like if a doctor was brought in on a cardio consult on their patient because they had a maybe unrelated heart condition, and the only thing they could answer to "why did you prescribe cemidine instead of decimine" is "lemme get back to you on that."
ryandrake 5mo ago
> This is a common thing doctors complain about. Patients come in, saying they just need a prescription for some drug or other. Off topic, but this must be a USA-specific problem, where prescription drugs are actually marketed at Joe consumer. I think there is maybe one other country where this insane practice is allowed. Nowhere else are patients told to “Ask your doctor about Procrapin for your irritable bowl syndrome!!”
- bigthymer 5mo ago
  While prescription drug marketing to consumers is an issue in the US, I think the actual problem in this situation is people Googling their issue then coming to the doctor with the conclusion of their investigation instead of letting the doctor do the investigation themselves.
  - 5mo ago

chaidhat 5mo ago

I think that in an AI-native company, the people asking the question should be using their own set of the AI to query the codebase, before coming to ask you. The problem that you describe seems to be more relevant to an organization which has not fully embraced AI yet.

otabdeveloper4 5mo ago
> AI-native company No such thing. The AI hype bubble is only a couple years old, and will not last a couple years more.

xg15 5mo ago

> To be continued... But from now on, the work isn't done if I don't get a little 5 mins flash-card type markdown list of "what is this" and "what is that", type glossary. Easy, just have the agent write them for you at the end, then never read them... (/joking)

utopiah 5mo ago

Back to 2014 with this 7min "The Expert" skit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg Not the kind of meetings I enjoy where basically expertise isn't seen as something to build on but rather just (creative) confirmation bias.

maxrev17 5mo ago

I’d just say to this.. who cares, drop the ego. The tool was used and if you didn’t use it you’d be in worse trouble. I just say I dno I’ll ask the AI… easy :D

keyle 5mo ago
Thanks, that's an interesting take from all that I've read. If you're happy for me to do the job in 1/10th of the time, be happy with me not being fully across it on a whim.
- whattheheckheck 5mo ago
  Dr. Chuck from python for everyone course said the same thing.
- intrinsicallee 5mo ago
  If the new way and speed of working makes you deploy things that you then become the bottleneck on the organizational knowledge of, and now the organization is running things in production that you have to go chase down details about and blocking other people, it seems like you just moved the problem from "needing time to do work properly" to "doing work then needing time to do it properly" which seems to me like a tremendous increase liability.