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> I helped her tailor her LinkedIn profile and resume with a lot of attention to detail: adding metrics, keywords, results, etc. FWIW, when I see a resume with

> I helped her tailor her LinkedIn profile and resume with a lot of attention to detail: adding metrics, keywords, results, etc. FWIW, when I see a resume with metrics and keywords, I immediately filter it out.

reillyse 6mo ago
You must be a pre 5.0 model so.
mikeyouse 6mo ago
Which is a very “HN” sentiment when the vast majority of recruiters and hiring managers are absolutely not doing the same. Especially for roles outside of tech.
- andsoitis 6mo ago
  Yeah I don’t know what others are doing, but I work in the valley and those elements signal checklist mentality. To wit, those keyword lists often include, in my experience, proficiency in specific tool use, rather than communicating skills that transcend tools, which tells me the person is likely not very dynamic or creative.
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
  - Izkata 6mo ago
    > those keyword lists often include, in my experience, proficiency in specific tool use This used to be called "buzzword bingo" and was pretty much required. It was how you got past the initial automated filtering step before a human even saw your resume.
    - andsoitis 6mo ago
      I don’t know whether it was ever effective strategy for candidates, but I will simply say that as a hiring manager for over 12 years, I have never been interested in anyone’s resume when I see that.
      - schrodinger 6mo ago
        As someone who's been a hiring manager for around 7 years, I agree with you, but note that the people who screen resumés before they even _get to you_ very well may be looking for those references. For my own resumé, I include the stack used at each job which I feel strikes a fair balance.
        mcv 6mo ago
        That's what I always did too. Then I removed it because I wanted to focus more on the kind of problems I solve rather than the languages I've worked in, and recruiters complained, so I put it back in.
      - Melatonic 6mo ago
        Most HR departments have been filtering resumes (or LinkedIn) based on things like keywords for years before they got to you. So your reaction to resumes that heavily use those may be reactionary to being presented with tons of those (by whoever filtered them before you)
        3eb7988a1663 6mo ago
        I once had an application rejected less than five minutes after submission. Hard to imagine that was anything but lacking a certain threshold keyword.
      - pqtyw 6mo ago
        The problem is that the candidate doesn't know, its not even good proxy either way just like everything on the resume besides the list of companies the person worked on. Most applicants have no idea about your internal HR procedures and what's the pipeline before the resume even gets from you so they might as well optimize for what generally seems the most "successful" approach. Maybe they actually think writing metrics and keywords is a good idea, maybe they think its stupid and resent it but can't get any interviews without it, its really impossible to tell without other variables..
    - rustystump 6mo ago
      No used to be. It still is standard. Large companies that do not use external recruiters still use keywords and skills matching to find candidates and it drives me nuts.
  - david-gpu 6mo ago
    Please, do show us your resume so that we can judge the heck out of you as well. It is a fun game, apparently.
    - andsoitis 6mo ago
      I’m giving advice that I judge to be useful.
  - mcv 6mo ago
    I rewrote my resume in a way that sounds like exactly what you want: focus on skills that transcend tools instead of just the tools, and every recruiter asks me about tools.
    - ponector 6mo ago
      And then during the screening call they ask questions like this: how many years of experience do you have with Jira?
hiAndrewQuinn 6mo ago
What counts as a keyword here? If you're hiring for a frontend developer and you see e.g. "Redux" do you just can it?
- andsoitis 6mo ago
  Knowing or having experience with Redux isn’t going to cause me to pick you over someone else who doesn’t list it for a job where I’m paying you hundreds of thousands of dollars. I look at other skills. I would not can it in isolation, but if I see a comma-separated list like: “proficient in redux, react, html, JavaScript, sql, kubernetes, word and excel”… then yes, you don’t make the cut. Or if you list your Microsoft qualifications or your MIT continuing education courses. These are all negative signals.
  - coder68 6mo ago
    What would be an example of a positive signal?
  - mcv 6mo ago
    Unfortunately many recruiters do look at that. I'm always a bit disappointed when someone wants me to rate my Java experience, or complains that my CV doesn't mention REST experience.
- tkiolp4 6mo ago
  Metrics: I increased retention 2x; I reduced latency from X ms to Y ms; increased slo to 99.999… those are all meaningless. It was in fashion to put such numbers in cvs maybe 5-10 years ago. Not anymore
  - andsoitis 6mo ago
    They were always lies because they’re imprecise. “I” didn’t do any of those things, you did other things together with other people leveraging company infrastructure to accomplish those things. Tell me about the SKILLS you excel in tha make those things happen.
RajT88 6mo ago
Same. I am well aware how the metrics game goes - even inside the company it can be hard to disprove the metrics claimed, and people count on that. Even managers coach you on putting metrics you cannot prove or disprove.
schrodinger 6mo ago
Same. If it's something like "Refactored the apartment list service improving P99 Latency from 2s to 180ms", it definitely boosts the resumé in my mind. A good engineer would be measuring their impact and likely have numbers like that off the top of their head. But if it's like "Increased revenue by $18.7M by reducing time-to-first-interaction latency from 2.3s to 117ms, increasing conversion by 47% and LTV by 28%," with the same fidelity on each bullet, I'm very skeptical. -- I don't summarily reject AI-written resumés to be clear, as honestly, it's basically a necessity at this point to be competitive with others; it'd be putting yourself at a severe disadvantage on pure principles in a way that has no real positive net effect on society. Even if you disagree with AI resumé screeners, you're only hurting yourself — especially at a time that has the largest impact on your compensation (i.e. negotiating salary at job start is one of the most valuable ways to spend your time since it will pay you back every paycheck). Though I _do_ tend to question resumés that look like they were written almost entirely by an LLM without the candidate providing significant context and refinement.
- nerdsniper 6mo ago
  I wish it was at least normalized to submit two resumes - one for AI and one for humans. Threading the needle to please both audiences is such a crap-shoot.
  - 8note 6mo ago
    im kinda thinking about adding an llm resume to my resume as like tiny clear text somewhere in the corner.
- jwolfe 6mo ago
  > If it's something like "Refactored the apartment list service improving P99 Latency from 2s to 180ms", it definitely boosts the resumé in my mind. A good engineer would be measuring their impact and likely have numbers like that off the top of their head. > But if it's like "Increased revenue by $18.7M by reducing time-to-first-interaction latency from 2.3s to 117ms, increasing conversion by 47% and LTV by 28%," with the same fidelity on each bullet, I'm very skeptical. Do you mind explaining why? The former doesn't indicate caring about business impact whatsoever (is this service in the critical path of any online process? Who knows!) while the latter does.
ai_slop_hater 6mo ago
Gigachad. Just don’t forget to signal somehow that you aren’t like everyone else, so that legitimate candidates can send their real resume instead of AI generated one.
roymain 6mo ago
What i have observed, which is the hard (unpredictable) part for candidates is, they can't tell which kind of hiring manager they'll get. Some reject resumes with metrics, others use software that won't let the resume through without them. Most (non-subject matter experts) would just look for whatever they think will get past the filter. what i am researching right now is if you (hiring manager) got 2 resumes from the same candidate, one hand-written (metaphorically) and the other built by chat-GPT or AI, which one would you call ?

reillyse 6mo ago

You must be a pre 5.0 model so.

mikeyouse 6mo ago

Which is a very “HN” sentiment when the vast majority of recruiters and hiring managers are absolutely not doing the same. Especially for roles outside of tech.

andsoitis 6mo ago
Yeah I don’t know what others are doing, but I work in the valley and those elements signal checklist mentality. To wit, those keyword lists often include, in my experience, proficiency in specific tool use, rather than communicating skills that transcend tools, which tells me the person is likely not very dynamic or creative.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- Izkata 6mo ago
  > those keyword lists often include, in my experience, proficiency in specific tool use This used to be called "buzzword bingo" and was pretty much required. It was how you got past the initial automated filtering step before a human even saw your resume.
  - andsoitis 6mo ago
    I don’t know whether it was ever effective strategy for candidates, but I will simply say that as a hiring manager for over 12 years, I have never been interested in anyone’s resume when I see that.
    - schrodinger 6mo ago
      As someone who's been a hiring manager for around 7 years, I agree with you, but note that the people who screen resumés before they even _get to you_ very well may be looking for those references. For my own resumé, I include the stack used at each job which I feel strikes a fair balance.
      - mcv 6mo ago
        That's what I always did too. Then I removed it because I wanted to focus more on the kind of problems I solve rather than the languages I've worked in, and recruiters complained, so I put it back in.
    - Melatonic 6mo ago
      Most HR departments have been filtering resumes (or LinkedIn) based on things like keywords for years before they got to you. So your reaction to resumes that heavily use those may be reactionary to being presented with tons of those (by whoever filtered them before you)
      - 3eb7988a1663 6mo ago
        I once had an application rejected less than five minutes after submission. Hard to imagine that was anything but lacking a certain threshold keyword.
    - pqtyw 6mo ago
      The problem is that the candidate doesn't know, its not even good proxy either way just like everything on the resume besides the list of companies the person worked on. Most applicants have no idea about your internal HR procedures and what's the pipeline before the resume even gets from you so they might as well optimize for what generally seems the most "successful" approach. Maybe they actually think writing metrics and keywords is a good idea, maybe they think its stupid and resent it but can't get any interviews without it, its really impossible to tell without other variables..
  - rustystump 6mo ago
    No used to be. It still is standard. Large companies that do not use external recruiters still use keywords and skills matching to find candidates and it drives me nuts.
- david-gpu 6mo ago
  Please, do show us your resume so that we can judge the heck out of you as well. It is a fun game, apparently.
  - andsoitis 6mo ago
    I’m giving advice that I judge to be useful.
- mcv 6mo ago
  I rewrote my resume in a way that sounds like exactly what you want: focus on skills that transcend tools instead of just the tools, and every recruiter asks me about tools.
  - ponector 6mo ago
    And then during the screening call they ask questions like this: how many years of experience do you have with Jira?

hiAndrewQuinn 6mo ago

What counts as a keyword here? If you're hiring for a frontend developer and you see e.g. "Redux" do you just can it?

andsoitis 6mo ago
Knowing or having experience with Redux isn’t going to cause me to pick you over someone else who doesn’t list it for a job where I’m paying you hundreds of thousands of dollars. I look at other skills. I would not can it in isolation, but if I see a comma-separated list like: “proficient in redux, react, html, JavaScript, sql, kubernetes, word and excel”… then yes, you don’t make the cut. Or if you list your Microsoft qualifications or your MIT continuing education courses. These are all negative signals.
- coder68 6mo ago
  What would be an example of a positive signal?
- mcv 6mo ago
  Unfortunately many recruiters do look at that. I'm always a bit disappointed when someone wants me to rate my Java experience, or complains that my CV doesn't mention REST experience.
tkiolp4 6mo ago
Metrics: I increased retention 2x; I reduced latency from X ms to Y ms; increased slo to 99.999… those are all meaningless. It was in fashion to put such numbers in cvs maybe 5-10 years ago. Not anymore
- andsoitis 6mo ago
  They were always lies because they’re imprecise. “I” didn’t do any of those things, you did other things together with other people leveraging company infrastructure to accomplish those things. Tell me about the SKILLS you excel in tha make those things happen.

RajT88 6mo ago

Same. I am well aware how the metrics game goes - even inside the company it can be hard to disprove the metrics claimed, and people count on that. Even managers coach you on putting metrics you cannot prove or disprove.

schrodinger 6mo ago

Same. If it's something like "Refactored the apartment list service improving P99 Latency from 2s to 180ms", it definitely boosts the resumé in my mind. A good engineer would be measuring their impact and likely have numbers like that off the top of their head. But if it's like "Increased revenue by $18.7M by reducing time-to-first-interaction latency from 2.3s to 117ms, increasing conversion by 47% and LTV by 28%," with the same fidelity on each bullet, I'm very skeptical. -- I don't summarily reject AI-written resumés to be clear, as honestly, it's basically a necessity at this point to be competitive with others; it'd be putting yourself at a severe disadvantage on pure principles in a way that has no real positive net effect on society. Even if you disagree with AI resumé screeners, you're only hurting yourself — especially at a time that has the largest impact on your compensation (i.e. negotiating salary at job start is one of the most valuable ways to spend your time since it will pay you back every paycheck). Though I _do_ tend to question resumés that look like they were written almost entirely by an LLM without the candidate providing significant context and refinement.

nerdsniper 6mo ago
I wish it was at least normalized to submit two resumes - one for AI and one for humans. Threading the needle to please both audiences is such a crap-shoot.
- 8note 6mo ago
  im kinda thinking about adding an llm resume to my resume as like tiny clear text somewhere in the corner.
jwolfe 6mo ago
> If it's something like "Refactored the apartment list service improving P99 Latency from 2s to 180ms", it definitely boosts the resumé in my mind. A good engineer would be measuring their impact and likely have numbers like that off the top of their head. > But if it's like "Increased revenue by $18.7M by reducing time-to-first-interaction latency from 2.3s to 117ms, increasing conversion by 47% and LTV by 28%," with the same fidelity on each bullet, I'm very skeptical. Do you mind explaining why? The former doesn't indicate caring about business impact whatsoever (is this service in the critical path of any online process? Who knows!) while the latter does.

ai_slop_hater 6mo ago

Gigachad. Just don’t forget to signal somehow that you aren’t like everyone else, so that legitimate candidates can send their real resume instead of AI generated one.

roymain 6mo ago

What i have observed, which is the hard (unpredictable) part for candidates is, they can't tell which kind of hiring manager they'll get. Some reject resumes with metrics, others use software that won't let the resume through without them. Most (non-subject matter experts) would just look for whatever they think will get past the filter. what i am researching right now is if you (hiring manager) got 2 resumes from the same candidate, one hand-written (metaphorically) and the other built by chat-GPT or AI, which one would you call ?