5 ms·

Of course the article is about the archaeological discovery, but if you're curious (as I was) what the poem is, it's "Caedmon’s Hymn": "Now we must praise

Of course the article is about the archaeological discovery, but if you're curious (as I was) what the poem is, it's "Caedmon’s Hymn": "Now we must praise the protector of the heavenly kingdom the might of the measurer and his mind’s purpose, the work of the father of glory, as he for each of his wonders, the eternal Lord, established a beginning. He shaped first for the sons of the earth heaven as a roof, the holy maker; then the middle-world, mankind’s guardian, the eternal Lord, made afterwards, solid ground for men, the almighty Lord." via https://imagejournal.org/article/caedmons-hymn-the-first-english-poet https://imagejournal.org/article/caedmons-hymn-the-first-eng...

simonask 5mo ago
Thanks, came to the comments for this! Reading Old English as a Scandinavian is always interesting, because if you squint hard enough, you can easily see how the languages are so deeply related. So many modern Scandinavian words have what seem to be lost cognates in Old English, and I suppose vice versa. That said, I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words and the grammatical structure of the poem, even if it would make for a much more awkward text. For example, this text translates "middangeard" as "middle-world", which is correct, but it is cognate with "Midgård", which is the Norse mythological name for Earth. (In Scandinavian translations of J.R.R. Tolkien, "Middle Earth" is translated as "Midgård".) I think this lets us understand more about how writers of Old English understood the world, and how it was connected to the broader mythological landscape in North/Western Europe around this time, how Christian and Pagan belief systems were interacting through language as the region was in the process of christianization.
- jgilias 5mo ago
  Out of curiosity, what are the other two realms? (I assume it’s two)
  - e12e 5mo ago
    In Norse mythology "the nine realms" encompass the entire world - but there's no definive list of what realms constitute the nine. In the center, humans inhabit Midtgård. The gods in Valhall and the Jotun in Jotunheim. Then there's also Helheim or Hel - for the dead, Alfheim for the elves, Svartalfheim for the dwarves... https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Locations_in_Norse_mythology https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Locations_in_Nor...
  - simonask 5mo ago
    There's actually nine: - Vanaheim, home of the Vanir, a group of gods associated with fertility. - Asgård, home of the Aesir, the big-name gods (Thor, Odin, Freya, etc.). - Jötunheim, home of the Giants. - Alfheim, home of the elves. - Helheim, the underworld ("Hell"). - Svartalfheim / Nidavellir, home of the dwarves. - Midgård, home of the humans. - Muspelheim, home of fire elementals. - Niflheim, world of mists. (This is the commonly accepted list, but it's always worth mentioning that surviving literary sources of Norse mythology are very scarce. Much of the lore was reconstructed in the 19th century.)
    - yesbabyyes 5mo ago
      > - Asgård, home of the Aesir, the big-name gods (Thor, Odin, Freya, etc.). Freyja, along with her brother Freyr and their father, Njörðr, is one of the Vanir.
      - simonask 5mo ago
        Yes, but lives in Asgård.
- PaulRobinson 5mo ago
  English is claimed as being influenced heavily by every nation that conquered England, because of course it was: Latin via the Romans; Anglo-Saxon/Gemanic; then Viking; and, then the Latin/Romance influence again via France/Normandy. And of course, English develops organically (unlike, say, French), allowing new words to emerge, and for old words to take on new meanings. I love it. As an Englishman, I always find it interesting that there is this weird defined notion of "Englishness" in language, culture, whatever, when our entire history is one of mashing and remixing ideas over at least 2,000 years, and recent discoveries at Stonehenge push that back potentially by 3,000-5,000 years more. I particularly like the irony of the far-right going on about English identity on a march in London before going to have a lager and chicken tikka masala before heading home to a bungalow and putting on their pyjamas... :) I think the Scandinavian roots you talk about trace back to common Germanic roots perhaps, but also the Viking aspect will influence a lot. I think English has been "dipped into" by those roots a few times in history, as has Latin. On the need to keep the etymology aligned in translation: I think this is a routine challenge of the translator's skill, and why so many people have different views of different translations of the same texts. The Bible could easily be translated in many different ways, but the "King James" version is considered the standard within the Anglican churches in the UK (and seems to be the common root for US church bibles too), but a more modern translation would be possible, as would one that has a closer etymological meaning to the original sources. It's all interpretative. If people are building entire belief systems and ways of life (and arguably, laws for society), around a translation, and getting it off in a few places, it's likely we're going to run into the same problems even more when translating Tolkien or an ancient poem...
  - simonask 5mo ago
    Yeah, I share your fascination. My understanding is that Old English vocabulary mostly predates Viking invasion, but even then the colonizers would have a large shared vocabulary with (non-Celtic) British natives, who would be the descendants of Anglo-Saxon settlers a couple of centuries earlier.
  - pbhjpbhj 5mo ago
    >the "King James" version is considered the standard within the Anglican churches in the UK I don't find this to be true. Even at high mass ('bells & smells' type communion) you get more modern versions. To my recollection NIV would be most common. Obviously not a representative survey. Also, it might be at traditional/formal services you get [N]KJV as I've been to less of those. Amongst very old people you see strong support for KJV because that's what they learnt 70 years ago. It sounds very archaic to modern ears. I'd say KJV hasn't been favoured this side of the millennium. Just my impression.
- shelled 5mo ago
  As someone with native command over Hindi and, unless it's spoken by folks from certain UK countries, English, who also spoke and read Sanskrit quite well during school, I had a period of a few months when I went down the rabbit-hole of wonderful general linguistic history and the interrelation among them. I was shocked beyond imagination to see how we might actually have been more the same than different, if we go back far enough (not even prehistoric 'far enough') in each case (even the languages which are geographically distant currently). But then, of course, civilisation happened.
  - walthamstow 5mo ago
    My father in law is a Persian speaker. I was very surprised to learn that thank you (mersi) is the same as in French, and OK/indeed (baleh) is the same as in Spanish.
    - bradrn 5mo ago
      Persian mersi is actually a direct borrowing from the French [1]. Not sure about the other one, but I guess it’s just a coincidence, as happens so often in language [2]. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%B3%DB%8C#Persian https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%B3%DB%8C#Pers... [2] https://zompist.com/chance.htm https://zompist.com/chance.htm
    - nephihaha 5mo ago
      Arigato in Japanese is said to be a borrowing from Portuguese Obrigado (might want to verify that!).
      - lproven 5mo ago
        No, it's documented, as is tempura. It's like pancakes: you make them before the time of fasting. "The Time of X" in Spanish is "tempora X" and I would bet Portuguese is similar. There are loads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_words_of_Portuguese_origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_words_of_Port...
- TFNA 5mo ago
  > I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words This is how the Icelandic sagas were translated into English in the nineteenth century. Translators then almost always chose the English cognate of the Old Norse world, even if that English cognate was obsolete or its meaning had changed. Far from helping immerse readers in the medieval world, the effect (at least for modern sensibilities) is offputting and goofy, and in the twentieth century publishers like Penguin replaced those translations by new ones with a very different approach. More judicious use of the Germanic lexicon in English, à la Tolkien, provides a more appealing atmosphere of olden times.
  - lproven 5mo ago
    > the effect (at least for modern sensibilities) is offputting and goofy. Oh my. I find the reverse. It's spooky and enchanting because once I know all the cognates I feel like I can magically understand the original.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
- WillAdams 5mo ago
  Yes, but J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a guide on this (after seeing a couple of really bad quality translations) which later translations benefited from: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Guide_to_the_Names_in_The_Lord_of_the_Rings https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Guide_to_the_Names_in_The_Lo... that this was in _A Tolkien Compass_ which was one of the first books I purchased w/ my own money (along w/ _A Tolkien Reader_) is arguably a big part of why I chose to study languages early on in my life.
  - vi_sextus_vi 5mo ago
    Pedantry: Tolkien's "Middle-Earth" is itself a "folksy mistranslation" Closer translation-- "Middle-Yard" Old English word eardgeard =Earth-Yard / ˈæ͜ɑrdˌjæ͜ɑrd / "ardyard" / https://www.theundergroundmap.com/article.html?id=104937 https://www.theundergroundmap.com/article.html?id=104937 https://english.nsms.ox.ac.uk/oecoursepack/wanderer/notes/note85a.html https://english.nsms.ox.ac.uk/oecoursepack/wanderer/notes/no...
    - vintermann 5mo ago
      I guess that's where Tolkien's "Arda" comes from as well then.
    - card_zero 5mo ago
      Or even garden.
      - lostlogin 5mo ago
        Thank you. I’m not American and was trying work that out. I went straight to metric and Middle Metre approximate and is wrong.
      - herewulf 5mo ago
        'garden' came into English via Old French but it's ultimately Frankish (another Germanic language) so 'yard' and 'garden' are cognates. Interestingly they have a close sense. https://www.etymonline.com/word/garden https://www.etymonline.com/word/garden
- helsinkiandrew 5mo ago
  There was a UK TV show years ago that I've always remembered where the presenter tried to buy a cow using Old English with a Frisian speaking farmer in Holland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34
  - gilleain 5mo ago
    'The presenter' here being Eddie Izzard :)
  - jschveibinz 5mo ago
    You'd probably enjoy "The Story of English" series: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6D54D1C7DAE31B36&si=Kw3JUDhM9Euomnr5 https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6D54D1C7DAE31B36&si=Kw3J... or "The History of English" series: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV50II2XzmY-9GLZWAuieOp27mZUQfKnj&si=MxDVgrm_ML8_LU48 https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV50II2XzmY-9GLZWAuieOp27... In the second series, there is a weather report in Frisian that vaguely sounds like English.
    - arethuza 5mo ago
      I suspect a lot of people in the UK today would pronounce "brown cow" as "broon coo" - certainly I would have when I was a wee loon ;-)
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
- KurSix 5mo ago
  This is exactly the kind of thing that makes Old English fascinating even if you don't know the language properly
jibal 5mo ago
The article has a link to the poem under the text [Caedmon’s Hymn] (unsurprisingly).
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
zozbot234 5mo ago
This was archival research, not archaeology though. This book was located in an archive, and it's mostly in Latin with the Old English content being quite incidental, which explains why it was not noticed until now.

simonask 5mo ago

Thanks, came to the comments for this! Reading Old English as a Scandinavian is always interesting, because if you squint hard enough, you can easily see how the languages are so deeply related. So many modern Scandinavian words have what seem to be lost cognates in Old English, and I suppose vice versa. That said, I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words and the grammatical structure of the poem, even if it would make for a much more awkward text. For example, this text translates "middangeard" as "middle-world", which is correct, but it is cognate with "Midgård", which is the Norse mythological name for Earth. (In Scandinavian translations of J.R.R. Tolkien, "Middle Earth" is translated as "Midgård".) I think this lets us understand more about how writers of Old English understood the world, and how it was connected to the broader mythological landscape in North/Western Europe around this time, how Christian and Pagan belief systems were interacting through language as the region was in the process of christianization.

jgilias 5mo ago
Out of curiosity, what are the other two realms? (I assume it’s two)
- e12e 5mo ago
  In Norse mythology "the nine realms" encompass the entire world - but there's no definive list of what realms constitute the nine. In the center, humans inhabit Midtgård. The gods in Valhall and the Jotun in Jotunheim. Then there's also Helheim or Hel - for the dead, Alfheim for the elves, Svartalfheim for the dwarves... https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Locations_in_Norse_mythology https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Locations_in_Nor...
- simonask 5mo ago
  There's actually nine: - Vanaheim, home of the Vanir, a group of gods associated with fertility. - Asgård, home of the Aesir, the big-name gods (Thor, Odin, Freya, etc.). - Jötunheim, home of the Giants. - Alfheim, home of the elves. - Helheim, the underworld ("Hell"). - Svartalfheim / Nidavellir, home of the dwarves. - Midgård, home of the humans. - Muspelheim, home of fire elementals. - Niflheim, world of mists. (This is the commonly accepted list, but it's always worth mentioning that surviving literary sources of Norse mythology are very scarce. Much of the lore was reconstructed in the 19th century.)
  - yesbabyyes 5mo ago
    > - Asgård, home of the Aesir, the big-name gods (Thor, Odin, Freya, etc.). Freyja, along with her brother Freyr and their father, Njörðr, is one of the Vanir.
    - simonask 5mo ago
      Yes, but lives in Asgård.
PaulRobinson 5mo ago
English is claimed as being influenced heavily by every nation that conquered England, because of course it was: Latin via the Romans; Anglo-Saxon/Gemanic; then Viking; and, then the Latin/Romance influence again via France/Normandy. And of course, English develops organically (unlike, say, French), allowing new words to emerge, and for old words to take on new meanings. I love it. As an Englishman, I always find it interesting that there is this weird defined notion of "Englishness" in language, culture, whatever, when our entire history is one of mashing and remixing ideas over at least 2,000 years, and recent discoveries at Stonehenge push that back potentially by 3,000-5,000 years more. I particularly like the irony of the far-right going on about English identity on a march in London before going to have a lager and chicken tikka masala before heading home to a bungalow and putting on their pyjamas... :) I think the Scandinavian roots you talk about trace back to common Germanic roots perhaps, but also the Viking aspect will influence a lot. I think English has been "dipped into" by those roots a few times in history, as has Latin. On the need to keep the etymology aligned in translation: I think this is a routine challenge of the translator's skill, and why so many people have different views of different translations of the same texts. The Bible could easily be translated in many different ways, but the "King James" version is considered the standard within the Anglican churches in the UK (and seems to be the common root for US church bibles too), but a more modern translation would be possible, as would one that has a closer etymological meaning to the original sources. It's all interpretative. If people are building entire belief systems and ways of life (and arguably, laws for society), around a translation, and getting it off in a few places, it's likely we're going to run into the same problems even more when translating Tolkien or an ancient poem...
- simonask 5mo ago
  Yeah, I share your fascination. My understanding is that Old English vocabulary mostly predates Viking invasion, but even then the colonizers would have a large shared vocabulary with (non-Celtic) British natives, who would be the descendants of Anglo-Saxon settlers a couple of centuries earlier.
- pbhjpbhj 5mo ago
  >the "King James" version is considered the standard within the Anglican churches in the UK I don't find this to be true. Even at high mass ('bells & smells' type communion) you get more modern versions. To my recollection NIV would be most common. Obviously not a representative survey. Also, it might be at traditional/formal services you get [N]KJV as I've been to less of those. Amongst very old people you see strong support for KJV because that's what they learnt 70 years ago. It sounds very archaic to modern ears. I'd say KJV hasn't been favoured this side of the millennium. Just my impression.
shelled 5mo ago
As someone with native command over Hindi and, unless it's spoken by folks from certain UK countries, English, who also spoke and read Sanskrit quite well during school, I had a period of a few months when I went down the rabbit-hole of wonderful general linguistic history and the interrelation among them. I was shocked beyond imagination to see how we might actually have been more the same than different, if we go back far enough (not even prehistoric 'far enough') in each case (even the languages which are geographically distant currently). But then, of course, civilisation happened.
- walthamstow 5mo ago
  My father in law is a Persian speaker. I was very surprised to learn that thank you (mersi) is the same as in French, and OK/indeed (baleh) is the same as in Spanish.
  - bradrn 5mo ago
    Persian mersi is actually a direct borrowing from the French [1]. Not sure about the other one, but I guess it’s just a coincidence, as happens so often in language [2]. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%B3%DB%8C#Persian https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%B3%DB%8C#Pers... [2] https://zompist.com/chance.htm https://zompist.com/chance.htm
  - nephihaha 5mo ago
    Arigato in Japanese is said to be a borrowing from Portuguese Obrigado (might want to verify that!).
    - lproven 5mo ago
      No, it's documented, as is tempura. It's like pancakes: you make them before the time of fasting. "The Time of X" in Spanish is "tempora X" and I would bet Portuguese is similar. There are loads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_words_of_Portuguese_origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_words_of_Port...
TFNA 5mo ago
> I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words This is how the Icelandic sagas were translated into English in the nineteenth century. Translators then almost always chose the English cognate of the Old Norse world, even if that English cognate was obsolete or its meaning had changed. Far from helping immerse readers in the medieval world, the effect (at least for modern sensibilities) is offputting and goofy, and in the twentieth century publishers like Penguin replaced those translations by new ones with a very different approach. More judicious use of the Germanic lexicon in English, à la Tolkien, provides a more appealing atmosphere of olden times.
- lproven 5mo ago
  > the effect (at least for modern sensibilities) is offputting and goofy. Oh my. I find the reverse. It's spooky and enchanting because once I know all the cognates I feel like I can magically understand the original.
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
WillAdams 5mo ago
Yes, but J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a guide on this (after seeing a couple of really bad quality translations) which later translations benefited from: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Guide_to_the_Names_in_The_Lord_of_the_Rings https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Guide_to_the_Names_in_The_Lo... that this was in _A Tolkien Compass_ which was one of the first books I purchased w/ my own money (along w/ _A Tolkien Reader_) is arguably a big part of why I chose to study languages early on in my life.
- vi_sextus_vi 5mo ago
  Pedantry: Tolkien's "Middle-Earth" is itself a "folksy mistranslation" Closer translation-- "Middle-Yard" Old English word eardgeard =Earth-Yard / ˈæ͜ɑrdˌjæ͜ɑrd / "ardyard" / https://www.theundergroundmap.com/article.html?id=104937 https://www.theundergroundmap.com/article.html?id=104937 https://english.nsms.ox.ac.uk/oecoursepack/wanderer/notes/note85a.html https://english.nsms.ox.ac.uk/oecoursepack/wanderer/notes/no...
  - vintermann 5mo ago
    I guess that's where Tolkien's "Arda" comes from as well then.
  - card_zero 5mo ago
    Or even garden.
    - lostlogin 5mo ago
      Thank you. I’m not American and was trying work that out. I went straight to metric and Middle Metre approximate and is wrong.
    - herewulf 5mo ago
      'garden' came into English via Old French but it's ultimately Frankish (another Germanic language) so 'yard' and 'garden' are cognates. Interestingly they have a close sense. https://www.etymonline.com/word/garden https://www.etymonline.com/word/garden
helsinkiandrew 5mo ago
There was a UK TV show years ago that I've always remembered where the presenter tried to buy a cow using Old English with a Frisian speaking farmer in Holland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34
- gilleain 5mo ago
  'The presenter' here being Eddie Izzard :)
- jschveibinz 5mo ago
  You'd probably enjoy "The Story of English" series: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6D54D1C7DAE31B36&si=Kw3JUDhM9Euomnr5 https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6D54D1C7DAE31B36&si=Kw3J... or "The History of English" series: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV50II2XzmY-9GLZWAuieOp27mZUQfKnj&si=MxDVgrm_ML8_LU48 https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV50II2XzmY-9GLZWAuieOp27... In the second series, there is a weather report in Frisian that vaguely sounds like English.
  - arethuza 5mo ago
    I suspect a lot of people in the UK today would pronounce "brown cow" as "broon coo" - certainly I would have when I was a wee loon ;-)
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
KurSix 5mo ago
This is exactly the kind of thing that makes Old English fascinating even if you don't know the language properly

jibal 5mo ago

The article has a link to the poem under the text [Caedmon’s Hymn] (unsurprisingly).

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

zozbot234 5mo ago

This was archival research, not archaeology though. This book was located in an archive, and it's mostly in Latin with the Old English content being quite incidental, which explains why it was not noticed until now.