6 ms·

Context: last year LaLiga (top-level Spanish football league) obtained a court order compelling Spanish ISPs to block certain IPs during football matches, as th

Context: last year LaLiga (top-level Spanish football league) obtained a court order compelling Spanish ISPs to block certain IPs during football matches, as those IPs have been associated with illegal streams of live matches. Many of those IPs are shared Cloudflare IPs, with the result being many legitimate sites become unavailable in Spain during LaLiga matches https://cybernews.com/news/spain-laliga-streaming-piracy-campaign/ https://cybernews.com/news/spain-laliga-streaming-piracy-cam...

inglor_cz 5mo ago
I fervently hope that no one manages to obtain a similar judgment at the pan-EU level, that would be a disaster.
- dmitrygr 5mo ago
  I actually hope they do. this will force a proper reckoning about the situation and maybe a proper fix.
  - estebank 5mo ago
    On the one hand, I would tend to agree that making things painful enough might force people to stop ignoring and improve things. On the other, after seeing waves hands at everything since 2016 makes me very skeptical of accelerationism: sometimes things just get worse and worse, there's no bottom to bounce from. Or maybe we just never really hit rock bottom?
    - dmitrygr 5mo ago
      Eventually, some apparatchik will try to access pornhub during a sports match and fail, it'll resolve the issue quickly
    - ben_w 5mo ago
      Given much of the internet today, I'm not sure if a pan-EU level blocklist on all of cloudflare (damaging as that would be) would even be worse than the status-quo, let alone rock bottom.
      - ndsipa_pomu 5mo ago
        That'd likely lead to Cloudflare not being used much in the EU if the service is frequently disrupted. That could be a good thing to prevent their monopoly.
    - babypuncher 5mo ago
      The bottom is just so much farther down than we remember. Tremendous progress was made in the 20th century, particularly in the aftermath of WWII, and we've kind of just been coasting on it for 50 years. Accelerationism was always a terrible idea.
      - guelo 5mo ago
        It took tens of millions of dead to create the relative peace of the later 20th century, that is a hell of a rock bottom. We got the UN, nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, war crimes treaties, free trade, unprecedented prosperity. It's humanity's greatest achievement but we're throwing it all away. Partly due to attacks from monied interests and propagandists, partly to protect Israel (the 15th Crusade), partly because of hatred of peaceniks and bureaucrats, but largely because we've all forgotten the costly lessons.
      - AnthonyMouse 5mo ago
        The premise of accelerationism isn't to destroy the world, it's to escape a local maxima. You have some medium-okay but clearly sub-optimal status quo and then a bunch of defenders resisting all change because "things are fine" even though they should be better than fine, or institutions that have been captured by corrupt interests but that situation is stable as long as they continue to provide bread and circuses. If it stays mediocre then everyone muddles along; if it gets worse then people stop ignoring the issue and actually address it so that it gets better. The problem is, it's not just bread and circuses. People have been divided into camps for the purpose of directing their dissatisfaction against each other instead of the entities responsible. So people get mad when things go wrong but the perpetrators convince them that the enemy is their neighbors and they need to direct their resources to defeating each other instead of working together to solve the actual problems. For example, when SOPA/PIPA was defeated, it not only wasn't just along party lines, there was more opposition to it from Republicans than Democrats: https://projects.propublica.org/sopa/pipa.html https://projects.propublica.org/sopa/pipa.html So who we like here are e.g. Ron Wyden (D-OR) and Rand Paul (R-KY), because they both opposed it, even though they're in different parties. But then the "parties matter, not candidates" people would have you trying to oust everyone with the disfavored letter next to their name even if they did the right thing there. Which helps the baddies win by convincing you to oust good candidates from the "bad" party in favor of bad candidates from the "good" party, and over time makes both parties worse even as people become increasingly dissatisfied with the way things are going.
    - thaumasiotes 5mo ago
      Well, this very article is describing how popular outrage in Spain is forcing the legislature to take action against La Liga. (Yes, the action described in the article is explictly not legally binding. That was also true of the Brexit vote.)
- WhyNotHugo 5mo ago
  At that scale, it might make Cloudflare customers reconsider their affiliations. It might not be as terrible. By affecting only Spain, the impact is too small for most websites to care.
  - dylan604 5mo ago
    What other provider than Cloudflare is out there that offers the things Cloudflare does? Why are people not already switching to them if they are available?
    - kevin_thibedeau 5mo ago
      Akamai is the OG Cloudflare, just not as cool.
      - miohtama 5mo ago
        And costs 1000x more
    - prmoustache 5mo ago
      Telefonica, the telecom company who bought the rights of LaLiga and btained the judgement against cloudflare IPs, sells some of those services through its business services branch.
      - booi 5mo ago
        To say that Telefonica offers even remotely the same services and features that Cloudflare does is a lie at best.
        prmoustache 5mo ago
        The keyword was "some".
        devmor 5mo ago
- arlort 5mo ago
  I don't think there's an injunction mechanism like that at the EU level And even if there were I doubt the legal basis in EU law exists for such an injunction
  - gizajob 5mo ago
    yet
pjc50 5mo ago
Maybe someone can explain, but I don't understand why such an order isn't applied to cloudflare themselves?
- halJordan 5mo ago
  The state hasn't setup processes to enable that. It will happen
- tshaddox 5mo ago
  Presumably the Cloudflare network resources in question were not located in Spain and thus not under Spanish jurisduction. Or even if they were, it may be procedurally simpler for the Spanish government to compel ISPs to block IPs.
  - embedding-shape 5mo ago
    > it may be procedurally simpler for the Spanish government to compel ISPs to block IPs. The Spanish government is not the ones enforcing the ban here. La Liga and Telefonica went to the judges, who are the ones making ISPs to enforce these blocks, as an intermediate "fix" essentially.
    - tomnipotent 5mo ago
      > went to the judges Which are part of the Spanish government.
      - embedding-shape 5mo ago
        > Which are part of the Spanish government. Judges in Spain are not part of the government ("Gobierno"). They are part of the Poder Judicial, the judiciary. The Spanish Constitution separates these clearly, give it a skim if you haven't already.
        tomnipotent 5mo ago
evilmonkey19 5mo ago
Personally, myself I have been greatly impacted by this measures. Several services of mine were unavailable because LaLiga said so. No notification, no justification, they block and that's all. It has been a shame since the beginning.
- thaumasiotes 5mo ago
  What would it look like if you sued La Liga for using their lawful blocking power in a way that injured you?
  - brendoelfrendo 5mo ago
    A very expensive lawsuit that, even if successful, will result in a difficult to enforce judgment?
    - thaumasiotes 5mo ago
      What's difficult about enforcing a judgment against La Liga? They're as public as it's possible to be.
      - brookst 5mo ago
        Might they appeal?
      - ornornor 5mo ago
        They have deep pockets for dragging this on much longer than you can afford it.
        ndsipa_pomu 5mo ago
        I doubt that will work outside of the U.S.A.
        ornornor 5mo ago
madduci 5mo ago
In Italy, Serie A got the approval of Government to do so, which is even worse
basisword 5mo ago
As shitty as the government approach is here we can't keep glossing over the fact that a significant part of the web is now incredibly dependent on Cloudflare and no matter how many times we face issues with huge consequences nobody seems to care.

inglor_cz 5mo ago

I fervently hope that no one manages to obtain a similar judgment at the pan-EU level, that would be a disaster.

dmitrygr 5mo ago
I actually hope they do. this will force a proper reckoning about the situation and maybe a proper fix.
- estebank 5mo ago
  On the one hand, I would tend to agree that making things painful enough might force people to stop ignoring and improve things. On the other, after seeing waves hands at everything since 2016 makes me very skeptical of accelerationism: sometimes things just get worse and worse, there's no bottom to bounce from. Or maybe we just never really hit rock bottom?
  - dmitrygr 5mo ago
    Eventually, some apparatchik will try to access pornhub during a sports match and fail, it'll resolve the issue quickly
  - ben_w 5mo ago
    Given much of the internet today, I'm not sure if a pan-EU level blocklist on all of cloudflare (damaging as that would be) would even be worse than the status-quo, let alone rock bottom.
    - ndsipa_pomu 5mo ago
      That'd likely lead to Cloudflare not being used much in the EU if the service is frequently disrupted. That could be a good thing to prevent their monopoly.
  - babypuncher 5mo ago
    The bottom is just so much farther down than we remember. Tremendous progress was made in the 20th century, particularly in the aftermath of WWII, and we've kind of just been coasting on it for 50 years. Accelerationism was always a terrible idea.
    - guelo 5mo ago
      It took tens of millions of dead to create the relative peace of the later 20th century, that is a hell of a rock bottom. We got the UN, nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, war crimes treaties, free trade, unprecedented prosperity. It's humanity's greatest achievement but we're throwing it all away. Partly due to attacks from monied interests and propagandists, partly to protect Israel (the 15th Crusade), partly because of hatred of peaceniks and bureaucrats, but largely because we've all forgotten the costly lessons.
    - AnthonyMouse 5mo ago
      The premise of accelerationism isn't to destroy the world, it's to escape a local maxima. You have some medium-okay but clearly sub-optimal status quo and then a bunch of defenders resisting all change because "things are fine" even though they should be better than fine, or institutions that have been captured by corrupt interests but that situation is stable as long as they continue to provide bread and circuses. If it stays mediocre then everyone muddles along; if it gets worse then people stop ignoring the issue and actually address it so that it gets better. The problem is, it's not just bread and circuses. People have been divided into camps for the purpose of directing their dissatisfaction against each other instead of the entities responsible. So people get mad when things go wrong but the perpetrators convince them that the enemy is their neighbors and they need to direct their resources to defeating each other instead of working together to solve the actual problems. For example, when SOPA/PIPA was defeated, it not only wasn't just along party lines, there was more opposition to it from Republicans than Democrats: https://projects.propublica.org/sopa/pipa.html https://projects.propublica.org/sopa/pipa.html So who we like here are e.g. Ron Wyden (D-OR) and Rand Paul (R-KY), because they both opposed it, even though they're in different parties. But then the "parties matter, not candidates" people would have you trying to oust everyone with the disfavored letter next to their name even if they did the right thing there. Which helps the baddies win by convincing you to oust good candidates from the "bad" party in favor of bad candidates from the "good" party, and over time makes both parties worse even as people become increasingly dissatisfied with the way things are going.
  - thaumasiotes 5mo ago
    Well, this very article is describing how popular outrage in Spain is forcing the legislature to take action against La Liga. (Yes, the action described in the article is explictly not legally binding. That was also true of the Brexit vote.)
WhyNotHugo 5mo ago
At that scale, it might make Cloudflare customers reconsider their affiliations. It might not be as terrible. By affecting only Spain, the impact is too small for most websites to care.
- dylan604 5mo ago
  What other provider than Cloudflare is out there that offers the things Cloudflare does? Why are people not already switching to them if they are available?
  - kevin_thibedeau 5mo ago
    Akamai is the OG Cloudflare, just not as cool.
    - miohtama 5mo ago
      And costs 1000x more
  - prmoustache 5mo ago
    Telefonica, the telecom company who bought the rights of LaLiga and btained the judgement against cloudflare IPs, sells some of those services through its business services branch.
    - booi 5mo ago
      To say that Telefonica offers even remotely the same services and features that Cloudflare does is a lie at best.
      - prmoustache 5mo ago
        The keyword was "some".
        devmor 5mo ago
arlort 5mo ago
I don't think there's an injunction mechanism like that at the EU level And even if there were I doubt the legal basis in EU law exists for such an injunction
- gizajob 5mo ago
  yet

pjc50 5mo ago

Maybe someone can explain, but I don't understand why such an order isn't applied to cloudflare themselves?

halJordan 5mo ago
The state hasn't setup processes to enable that. It will happen
tshaddox 5mo ago
Presumably the Cloudflare network resources in question were not located in Spain and thus not under Spanish jurisduction. Or even if they were, it may be procedurally simpler for the Spanish government to compel ISPs to block IPs.
- embedding-shape 5mo ago
  > it may be procedurally simpler for the Spanish government to compel ISPs to block IPs. The Spanish government is not the ones enforcing the ban here. La Liga and Telefonica went to the judges, who are the ones making ISPs to enforce these blocks, as an intermediate "fix" essentially.
  - tomnipotent 5mo ago
    > went to the judges Which are part of the Spanish government.
    - embedding-shape 5mo ago
      > Which are part of the Spanish government. Judges in Spain are not part of the government ("Gobierno"). They are part of the Poder Judicial, the judiciary. The Spanish Constitution separates these clearly, give it a skim if you haven't already.
      - tomnipotent 5mo ago

evilmonkey19 5mo ago

Personally, myself I have been greatly impacted by this measures. Several services of mine were unavailable because LaLiga said so. No notification, no justification, they block and that's all. It has been a shame since the beginning.

thaumasiotes 5mo ago
What would it look like if you sued La Liga for using their lawful blocking power in a way that injured you?
- brendoelfrendo 5mo ago
  A very expensive lawsuit that, even if successful, will result in a difficult to enforce judgment?
  - thaumasiotes 5mo ago
    What's difficult about enforcing a judgment against La Liga? They're as public as it's possible to be.
    - brookst 5mo ago
      Might they appeal?
    - ornornor 5mo ago
      They have deep pockets for dragging this on much longer than you can afford it.
      - ndsipa_pomu 5mo ago
        I doubt that will work outside of the U.S.A.
        ornornor 5mo ago

madduci 5mo ago

In Italy, Serie A got the approval of Government to do so, which is even worse

basisword 5mo ago

As shitty as the government approach is here we can't keep glossing over the fact that a significant part of the web is now incredibly dependent on Cloudflare and no matter how many times we face issues with huge consequences nobody seems to care.