4 ms·

For you, is the openness of Android appealing as a matter of principle or does it enable you to do things you couldn't otherwise do?

surgical_fire 6mo ago
Yes.
- criddell 6mo ago
  Can you expand on that? I'd like to understand the kinds of things millions of people are no longer going to be able to do.
  - gpm 6mo ago
    Well for instance the top app on fdroid is apparently "simpmusic" which would be impossible to run on an iphone because apple doesn't allow apps like it [1]... and it has 800k downloads from f-droid by itself. To be clear though android isn't stooping to Apple levels yet. You can still do anything, it just makes it obnoxious to do so. [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/05/musi-strikes-back-defending-claim-apple-conspired-with-youtube-music-industry/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/05/musi-strikes-bac...
zeta0134 6mo ago
I'll chime in with a really basic example. On my Android phone, I can have syncthing run as a background task. I can point other applications to use a data folder, in my syncthing share, and store their persistent state there. The Camera app, for example. Or Obsidian, my current favorite note taking app. Syncthing, by virtue of being always on and manipulating a decades old, very well understood filesystem concept, "magically" syncs all of these changes to every other device I own. Entirely offline, even if the internet is out, because the devices can just talk to each other. So far, I have been utterly incapable of getting my iPad to do anything remotely similar. It can run syncthing, technically, but not in the background. Apps don't have a shared filesystem structure, so it's difficult to get anything else set up to "save within my shared folder" in a way that would work, and that disregards that the syncing cannot occur when anything else is open. There's all sorts of cloud backup options, but those require the internet and even when they're working, there's this awkward import/export flow that adds friction to the whole dance. In isolation this would just be a small papercut, I guess, but these sorts of limitations are all over iOS. It's just terribly hostile to anyone not fully committed to the Cloud-first, Apple-hardware ecosystem. Android doesn't care, and doesn't have to care, because it lets me run the software I want. It's a really small set of programs too, at the end of the day. (Firefox with real extensions is the other one.)
- ubertaco 6mo ago
  This is the exact reason we switched my wife from iPhone to Android – because her iPhone couldn't sync reliably for our shared password vault or for Immich.
allthetime 6mo ago
You can download torrents on an android and plug usb media devices into it. When I was bicycle touring Europe with my wife a couple years ago we constantly downloaded books for direct input into our kobos and shows and movies to fall asleep to at night you could play from random, often old and crappy, hotel and airbnb televisions. You can’t do any of that on an iPhone. That said; iPhone is my main phone, has been for a decade or more. But I deeply appreciate what you can do with an android.
- aucisson_masque 6mo ago
  Android to me is like a tool. I use it and then I want it as far away as I can when I don't need it. Iphones makes my life easier but are too limited. Best case scenario, carry both.
rcxdude 6mo ago
The openness of Android also acts as a check of sorts on how restrictive the walled garden can get. If google were to clamp down on useful functionality in the play store, then you could always install apks yourself. But if the latter is no longer an option, then there's much more temptation to google for the former.
- criddell 6mo ago
  I get the feeling that clamping down on useful functionality is often an unfortunate side-effect of closing down paths that are being exploited by criminals to harm users. What should Google do when a change they are making to protect regular less-technical users breaks functionality needed by more advanced users?
  - ykonstant 6mo ago
    Oh yes, a very unfortunate side-effect that companies are implementing with tears in their eyes, tearing their clothes apart.
  - JoshTriplett 6mo ago
    > What should Google do when a change they are making to protect regular less-technical users breaks functionality needed by more advanced users? Have people read and type in a message saying "I'm not on the phone with a potential scammer who is trying to get me to install a package that may be dangerous", trust people to actually read what they're typing, and if they can't read and comprehend that, stop getting in the way of them shooting themselves in the foot.
  - lunar_rover 6mo ago
    > What should Google do when a change they are making to protect regular less-technical users breaks functionality needed by more advanced users? Put it behind an USB ADB only toggle and be more transparent to avoid slippery slope?
    - Zak 6mo ago
      That requires having a PC to unlock basic functionality on your Android device, assuming the change we're talking about is still app installs. I don't think OS vendors should be expected to keep people from doing dangerous things. A warning label saying "hey that's dangerous because..." is reasonable, but anything more and they're trying to be my sysadmin against my will.
JoshTriplett 6mo ago
I actually use the ability to install custom software on Android. I actually use the ability for Android apps to bundle JITs, and language interpreters, and other things that allow you to extend the app at runtime. The Apple walled garden would be unusable for me. And moves like this one to turn the Android ecosystem into the Apple ecosystem will generally be regressions. If anything, I'd like more openness in Android. For instance, apps should not have any control over what data I can back up; I should be able to back up every aspect of every app, restore it to a new phone, and apps should not be allowed to care.
a2128 6mo ago
I developed my first Android app when I was around 16 years old and I remember distinctly wanting to publish it on Google Play, but couldn't because they required developers to be 18+, and this was even before they introduced strict identity verification requirements. And iOS was a lost cause as XCode famously requires an operating system that only runs on very specific hardware for which I had no money. No matter, I published an apk on a website and ended up reaching a few tens of thousands of users that way. My app ended up transforming a (niche) industry and making a real impact on the world. If Android isn't open, we lose the last open mobile operating system, which will have immeasurable negative effects on computing as a whole. People will need permission from either Apple or Google to create any mobile program. If you don't fit into their neat little system, you don't get permission. If I hadn't been able to publish my app for another 2 years I probably would've shelved it, decided it was stupid, forgot about it, got busy with other things, and never published it.
- bloppe 6mo ago
  This is why I really wanted Capyloon to take off [1]. The idea was to build a whole mobile OS around PWAs. App Stores are just CDNs. There are no weird rules about payment processors. The ecosystem did not need to start from scratch. Unfortunately, it just never gained the necessary momentum. [1]: https://capyloon.org/ https://capyloon.org/
  - dude187 6mo ago
    I always wonder how different it would look for the myriad of failed open source projects like that, if they had just picked a more marketable name
  - kybernetikos 6mo ago
    I've still got a firefox OS phone in a drawer somewhere. I was disappointed it got discontinued like so many other mozilla projects.
    - JoshTriplett 6mo ago
      I was as well. It was very early, but not necessarily too early. I think part of the problem is that they decided to have the flagship devices be low-end hardware, rather than high-end hardware. They were trying to ensure that development took low-end hardware into account, but they failed to consider that by the time the platform grew, high-end would become mid-range.
stuaxo 6mo ago
Not op, but I used to be a mobile app. I use this to occasionally build and install Android apps from github. These are often out of date and need some tweaks but I can do it on a whim (I certainly wouldn't bother if there was a paywall).
lynndotpy 6mo ago
I used to build custom apps for my Android all the time, install APKs, transfer files over USB, use USB tethering on my Linux computer, torrent, use a mouse and keyboard (I think iOS can do this now though), use the integrated terminal, etc. A few years ago, iOS lacked basic features like widgets, NFC, calculator on their tablets, etc. And iOS still has a completely inferior keyboard (I used to write code and essays on my Android while walking) and a completely inferior notification system. Androids are also the only phones still offering a fingerprint scanner, which is way better for me. These nice things all combine well with the oppenness. What's worse is that we're clearly in a progression of restriction. Bootloader restrictions, app installation restrictions, "age verification" requirements, etc. Openness is being locked down from every angle with serious momentum, it's not anticipated to stop here.
NDlurker 6mo ago
>For you, is the openness of Android appealing as a matter of principle or does it enable you to do things you couldn't otherwise do? Both. I don't like the idea of locked down computers and that includes phones, especially now that they're so prominent in our lives. I dabbled in Android development for fun a decade ago and I loved how there was no barrier to entry. I've loaded apps that aren't available on the Play Store and have loaded apps that my friends have made just as fun side projects. There was a handheld gaming system in the early 2000s called Cybiko. Cybiko and Sega Dreamcast homebrew opened my mind up to the power of computers and having control of your hardware. These things should not be locked down. I liked messing around with making little programs on the Cybiko and downloading homebrew games for it and the Dreamcast. The openness of Android really excited me when it was new because I thought of it the same way as a Cybiko or Dreamcast or PC and not a locked down device where I can only run software approved by the hardware manufacturer.
lucb1e 6mo ago
Both, very much both, and I would assume that the 'actually being able to use the device in whatever way I want' feeds back into the 'this should be a thing we can do with purchased-to-own hardware' feeling
antonvs 6mo ago
Like not be tracked?
duskdozer 6mo ago
I modify several apps for my own use in ways that wouldn't get accepted upstream (or are proprietary), and I modify OS components to reduce the impact of opinionated Google UI design (and Apple is worse in this context).

surgical_fire 6mo ago

Yes.

criddell 6mo ago
Can you expand on that? I'd like to understand the kinds of things millions of people are no longer going to be able to do.
- gpm 6mo ago
  Well for instance the top app on fdroid is apparently "simpmusic" which would be impossible to run on an iphone because apple doesn't allow apps like it [1]... and it has 800k downloads from f-droid by itself. To be clear though android isn't stooping to Apple levels yet. You can still do anything, it just makes it obnoxious to do so. [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/05/musi-strikes-back-defending-claim-apple-conspired-with-youtube-music-industry/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/05/musi-strikes-bac...

zeta0134 6mo ago

I'll chime in with a really basic example. On my Android phone, I can have syncthing run as a background task. I can point other applications to use a data folder, in my syncthing share, and store their persistent state there. The Camera app, for example. Or Obsidian, my current favorite note taking app. Syncthing, by virtue of being always on and manipulating a decades old, very well understood filesystem concept, "magically" syncs all of these changes to every other device I own. Entirely offline, even if the internet is out, because the devices can just talk to each other. So far, I have been utterly incapable of getting my iPad to do anything remotely similar. It can run syncthing, technically, but not in the background. Apps don't have a shared filesystem structure, so it's difficult to get anything else set up to "save within my shared folder" in a way that would work, and that disregards that the syncing cannot occur when anything else is open. There's all sorts of cloud backup options, but those require the internet and even when they're working, there's this awkward import/export flow that adds friction to the whole dance. In isolation this would just be a small papercut, I guess, but these sorts of limitations are all over iOS. It's just terribly hostile to anyone not fully committed to the Cloud-first, Apple-hardware ecosystem. Android doesn't care, and doesn't have to care, because it lets me run the software I want. It's a really small set of programs too, at the end of the day. (Firefox with real extensions is the other one.)

ubertaco 6mo ago
This is the exact reason we switched my wife from iPhone to Android – because her iPhone couldn't sync reliably for our shared password vault or for Immich.

allthetime 6mo ago

You can download torrents on an android and plug usb media devices into it. When I was bicycle touring Europe with my wife a couple years ago we constantly downloaded books for direct input into our kobos and shows and movies to fall asleep to at night you could play from random, often old and crappy, hotel and airbnb televisions. You can’t do any of that on an iPhone. That said; iPhone is my main phone, has been for a decade or more. But I deeply appreciate what you can do with an android.

aucisson_masque 6mo ago
Android to me is like a tool. I use it and then I want it as far away as I can when I don't need it. Iphones makes my life easier but are too limited. Best case scenario, carry both.

rcxdude 6mo ago

The openness of Android also acts as a check of sorts on how restrictive the walled garden can get. If google were to clamp down on useful functionality in the play store, then you could always install apks yourself. But if the latter is no longer an option, then there's much more temptation to google for the former.

criddell 6mo ago
I get the feeling that clamping down on useful functionality is often an unfortunate side-effect of closing down paths that are being exploited by criminals to harm users. What should Google do when a change they are making to protect regular less-technical users breaks functionality needed by more advanced users?
- ykonstant 6mo ago
  Oh yes, a very unfortunate side-effect that companies are implementing with tears in their eyes, tearing their clothes apart.
- JoshTriplett 6mo ago
  > What should Google do when a change they are making to protect regular less-technical users breaks functionality needed by more advanced users? Have people read and type in a message saying "I'm not on the phone with a potential scammer who is trying to get me to install a package that may be dangerous", trust people to actually read what they're typing, and if they can't read and comprehend that, stop getting in the way of them shooting themselves in the foot.
- lunar_rover 6mo ago
  > What should Google do when a change they are making to protect regular less-technical users breaks functionality needed by more advanced users? Put it behind an USB ADB only toggle and be more transparent to avoid slippery slope?
  - Zak 6mo ago
    That requires having a PC to unlock basic functionality on your Android device, assuming the change we're talking about is still app installs. I don't think OS vendors should be expected to keep people from doing dangerous things. A warning label saying "hey that's dangerous because..." is reasonable, but anything more and they're trying to be my sysadmin against my will.

JoshTriplett 6mo ago

I actually use the ability to install custom software on Android. I actually use the ability for Android apps to bundle JITs, and language interpreters, and other things that allow you to extend the app at runtime. The Apple walled garden would be unusable for me. And moves like this one to turn the Android ecosystem into the Apple ecosystem will generally be regressions. If anything, I'd like more openness in Android. For instance, apps should not have any control over what data I can back up; I should be able to back up every aspect of every app, restore it to a new phone, and apps should not be allowed to care.

a2128 6mo ago

I developed my first Android app when I was around 16 years old and I remember distinctly wanting to publish it on Google Play, but couldn't because they required developers to be 18+, and this was even before they introduced strict identity verification requirements. And iOS was a lost cause as XCode famously requires an operating system that only runs on very specific hardware for which I had no money. No matter, I published an apk on a website and ended up reaching a few tens of thousands of users that way. My app ended up transforming a (niche) industry and making a real impact on the world. If Android isn't open, we lose the last open mobile operating system, which will have immeasurable negative effects on computing as a whole. People will need permission from either Apple or Google to create any mobile program. If you don't fit into their neat little system, you don't get permission. If I hadn't been able to publish my app for another 2 years I probably would've shelved it, decided it was stupid, forgot about it, got busy with other things, and never published it.

bloppe 6mo ago
This is why I really wanted Capyloon to take off [1]. The idea was to build a whole mobile OS around PWAs. App Stores are just CDNs. There are no weird rules about payment processors. The ecosystem did not need to start from scratch. Unfortunately, it just never gained the necessary momentum. [1]: https://capyloon.org/ https://capyloon.org/
- dude187 6mo ago
  I always wonder how different it would look for the myriad of failed open source projects like that, if they had just picked a more marketable name
- kybernetikos 6mo ago
  I've still got a firefox OS phone in a drawer somewhere. I was disappointed it got discontinued like so many other mozilla projects.
  - JoshTriplett 6mo ago
    I was as well. It was very early, but not necessarily too early. I think part of the problem is that they decided to have the flagship devices be low-end hardware, rather than high-end hardware. They were trying to ensure that development took low-end hardware into account, but they failed to consider that by the time the platform grew, high-end would become mid-range.

stuaxo 6mo ago

Not op, but I used to be a mobile app. I use this to occasionally build and install Android apps from github. These are often out of date and need some tweaks but I can do it on a whim (I certainly wouldn't bother if there was a paywall).

lynndotpy 6mo ago

I used to build custom apps for my Android all the time, install APKs, transfer files over USB, use USB tethering on my Linux computer, torrent, use a mouse and keyboard (I think iOS can do this now though), use the integrated terminal, etc. A few years ago, iOS lacked basic features like widgets, NFC, calculator on their tablets, etc. And iOS still has a completely inferior keyboard (I used to write code and essays on my Android while walking) and a completely inferior notification system. Androids are also the only phones still offering a fingerprint scanner, which is way better for me. These nice things all combine well with the oppenness. What's worse is that we're clearly in a progression of restriction. Bootloader restrictions, app installation restrictions, "age verification" requirements, etc. Openness is being locked down from every angle with serious momentum, it's not anticipated to stop here.

NDlurker 6mo ago

>For you, is the openness of Android appealing as a matter of principle or does it enable you to do things you couldn't otherwise do? Both. I don't like the idea of locked down computers and that includes phones, especially now that they're so prominent in our lives. I dabbled in Android development for fun a decade ago and I loved how there was no barrier to entry. I've loaded apps that aren't available on the Play Store and have loaded apps that my friends have made just as fun side projects. There was a handheld gaming system in the early 2000s called Cybiko. Cybiko and Sega Dreamcast homebrew opened my mind up to the power of computers and having control of your hardware. These things should not be locked down. I liked messing around with making little programs on the Cybiko and downloading homebrew games for it and the Dreamcast. The openness of Android really excited me when it was new because I thought of it the same way as a Cybiko or Dreamcast or PC and not a locked down device where I can only run software approved by the hardware manufacturer.

lucb1e 6mo ago

Both, very much both, and I would assume that the 'actually being able to use the device in whatever way I want' feeds back into the 'this should be a thing we can do with purchased-to-own hardware' feeling

antonvs 6mo ago

Like not be tracked?

duskdozer 6mo ago

I modify several apps for my own use in ways that wouldn't get accepted upstream (or are proprietary), and I modify OS components to reduce the impact of opinionated Google UI design (and Apple is worse in this context).