4 ms·

> Super shoes. Most shoes have carbon plates in them now, they act as a spring, storing energy and propelling athletes forwards. I wonder where that leaves the

> Super shoes. Most shoes have carbon plates in them now, they act as a spring, storing energy and propelling athletes forwards. I wonder where that leaves the barefoot movement. Hype dust?

brewdad 5mo ago
Was the barefoot movement ever about running faster? I always thought they sold injury prevention by strengthening tissues that running shoes tend to over support.
- nradov 5mo ago
  Yes, that was the claim but it was never really backed by evidence. Vibram settled a lawsuit over false claims that their minimalist shoes reduced the risk of injuries. (I still like those shoes myself and use them on some slow recovery runs.) https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27335251 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27335251
  - chabska 5mo ago
    This topic deserves so much more nuance, but it's always reduced to "barefoot running doesn't work" in internet forums. In every articles about the harm caused by barefoot running I've read, those reported injuries all end up being overuse injuries. The article you linked is specifically about bone marrow edema, which is basically bone bruise. Other possible injuries include muscle and tendon soreness. If this were a bodybuilding discussion, you would get advice on how to manage DOMS symptoms and how to plan your loading schedule, nobody would say that weightlifting "doesn't work" because a beginner got sore after lifting a 80kg barbell for the first time. But people has been conditioned to think that running is a purely cardio activity, so we don't talk about how the muscles and tendons in the foot need to be loaded up gradually just like your bicep. Barefoot running is a weightlifting activity. Your calf muscle has to lift your entire bodyweight for the forefoot stride. "No pain no gain" applies. Proper posture and techniques are important. Proper workout schedule and loading plan with rest days are important. Sufficient protein intake are important.
    - sayamqazi 5mo ago
      Also letting chlidren run and play barefoot actaully helps develop the foot properly which I presonally think is benificial in the long run.
      - rimliu 5mo ago
        no no, in the long run carbon plates are beneficial ;)
  - proee 5mo ago
    When Vibrams were first popular, I took to training with them on my runs. People told me to "take it easy" or you might get injured. I thought what's the worst that can happen? Well let me tell you. About a month into wearing them, I was doing a hard run and the trail had a section of concrete. My foot felt a sudden sharp pain and "snap!" I broke my 3rd metatarsal bone in my foot. Took a month or so to heal, and I decided to stop using the Vibrams.
    - dreadnip 5mo ago
      I only manage to do barefoot runs on soft forest ground. Anything concrete just instantly messes up my feet.
    - bonesss 5mo ago
      A month isn’t enough to adapt your ankles to high force hard running. You have to take it easy. Build low impact volume (walking and hiking), and then scale it (jogging then running), over time emphasizing recovery. Shoe adapted gaits are expecting materials to handle forces that simply aren’t there ‘barefoot’ (minimalist). Flip side: adapt like you understand the intense forces generated in running and that the baseline level of chronic dysfunction is high, and proper foot function can help correct movement form and posture issues, both of which are major drivers of chronic pain. Big thick shoes allow us to run like assholes. Shin splints, knee problems, chronic injuries, overuse injuries… Great for competition(!), great for sacrificing health to get speed (faster!). Unquestionably better for racing. But for people interested in longevity, evolution did one thing, Nike/Adidas another.
  - nunez 5mo ago
    My understanding of the advantages from barefoot running is that it was more about helping you lock in stride and form while preventing injuries outside of race days.
dogmatism 5mo ago
No competitive distance runner since like Zola Budd ran barefoot or minimal shoes. The carbon plate revolution is the main driver for drop in times over the last 5+ years
- ungreased0675 5mo ago
  I’d consider the old models of Nike Waffle race flats pretty minimal, and those were ubiquitous 15-20 years ago.
riknos314 5mo ago
As a 16 year wearer of mostly barefoot shoes, "barefoot" for me is about comfort in general day to day activity. It isn't a specialized tool and certainly isn't the obvious choice for extreme environments. If I'm going bouldering I absolutely cram my toes into a tiny rock climbing shoe, because it allows me to stand on ledges I couldn't without the extra support from the shoe. That being said, if barefoot generally feels good to you and you're not chasing the pinacle of performance it's probably a perfectly fine choice for your recreational runs.
ungreased0675 5mo ago
I still prefer to run in minimalist shoes because I like to feel the ground. The new breed of running shoes seem comically thick to me. I tried a pair for a few weeks, they still feel wrong. If a company would make a low stack height shoe with one of the new super foams, I’d probably buy three.
- roryirvine 5mo ago
  Worth looking at the Adizero Adios 9. Uses full-length superfoam but with a 25 mm stack height, which is very low by modern standards. If you have a neutral gait and prioritise tactility over cushioning, then they may well be a good fit for you. Not absurdly expensive, either! https://runrepeat.com/adidas-adizero-adios-9 https://runrepeat.com/adidas-adizero-adios-9
benhurmarcel 5mo ago
They never claimed it was faster, but healthier

> Super shoes. Most shoes have carbon plates in them now, they act as a spring, storing energy and propelling athletes forwards. I wonder where that leaves the barefoot movement. Hype dust?

brewdad 5mo ago

Was the barefoot movement ever about running faster? I always thought they sold injury prevention by strengthening tissues that running shoes tend to over support.

nradov 5mo ago
Yes, that was the claim but it was never really backed by evidence. Vibram settled a lawsuit over false claims that their minimalist shoes reduced the risk of injuries. (I still like those shoes myself and use them on some slow recovery runs.) https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27335251 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27335251
- chabska 5mo ago
  This topic deserves so much more nuance, but it's always reduced to "barefoot running doesn't work" in internet forums. In every articles about the harm caused by barefoot running I've read, those reported injuries all end up being overuse injuries. The article you linked is specifically about bone marrow edema, which is basically bone bruise. Other possible injuries include muscle and tendon soreness. If this were a bodybuilding discussion, you would get advice on how to manage DOMS symptoms and how to plan your loading schedule, nobody would say that weightlifting "doesn't work" because a beginner got sore after lifting a 80kg barbell for the first time. But people has been conditioned to think that running is a purely cardio activity, so we don't talk about how the muscles and tendons in the foot need to be loaded up gradually just like your bicep. Barefoot running is a weightlifting activity. Your calf muscle has to lift your entire bodyweight for the forefoot stride. "No pain no gain" applies. Proper posture and techniques are important. Proper workout schedule and loading plan with rest days are important. Sufficient protein intake are important.
  - sayamqazi 5mo ago
    Also letting chlidren run and play barefoot actaully helps develop the foot properly which I presonally think is benificial in the long run.
    - rimliu 5mo ago
      no no, in the long run carbon plates are beneficial ;)
- proee 5mo ago
  When Vibrams were first popular, I took to training with them on my runs. People told me to "take it easy" or you might get injured. I thought what's the worst that can happen? Well let me tell you. About a month into wearing them, I was doing a hard run and the trail had a section of concrete. My foot felt a sudden sharp pain and "snap!" I broke my 3rd metatarsal bone in my foot. Took a month or so to heal, and I decided to stop using the Vibrams.
  - dreadnip 5mo ago
    I only manage to do barefoot runs on soft forest ground. Anything concrete just instantly messes up my feet.
  - bonesss 5mo ago
    A month isn’t enough to adapt your ankles to high force hard running. You have to take it easy. Build low impact volume (walking and hiking), and then scale it (jogging then running), over time emphasizing recovery. Shoe adapted gaits are expecting materials to handle forces that simply aren’t there ‘barefoot’ (minimalist). Flip side: adapt like you understand the intense forces generated in running and that the baseline level of chronic dysfunction is high, and proper foot function can help correct movement form and posture issues, both of which are major drivers of chronic pain. Big thick shoes allow us to run like assholes. Shin splints, knee problems, chronic injuries, overuse injuries… Great for competition(!), great for sacrificing health to get speed (faster!). Unquestionably better for racing. But for people interested in longevity, evolution did one thing, Nike/Adidas another.
- nunez 5mo ago
  My understanding of the advantages from barefoot running is that it was more about helping you lock in stride and form while preventing injuries outside of race days.

dogmatism 5mo ago

No competitive distance runner since like Zola Budd ran barefoot or minimal shoes. The carbon plate revolution is the main driver for drop in times over the last 5+ years

ungreased0675 5mo ago
I’d consider the old models of Nike Waffle race flats pretty minimal, and those were ubiquitous 15-20 years ago.

riknos314 5mo ago

As a 16 year wearer of mostly barefoot shoes, "barefoot" for me is about comfort in general day to day activity. It isn't a specialized tool and certainly isn't the obvious choice for extreme environments. If I'm going bouldering I absolutely cram my toes into a tiny rock climbing shoe, because it allows me to stand on ledges I couldn't without the extra support from the shoe. That being said, if barefoot generally feels good to you and you're not chasing the pinacle of performance it's probably a perfectly fine choice for your recreational runs.

ungreased0675 5mo ago

I still prefer to run in minimalist shoes because I like to feel the ground. The new breed of running shoes seem comically thick to me. I tried a pair for a few weeks, they still feel wrong. If a company would make a low stack height shoe with one of the new super foams, I’d probably buy three.

roryirvine 5mo ago
Worth looking at the Adizero Adios 9. Uses full-length superfoam but with a 25 mm stack height, which is very low by modern standards. If you have a neutral gait and prioritise tactility over cushioning, then they may well be a good fit for you. Not absurdly expensive, either! https://runrepeat.com/adidas-adizero-adios-9 https://runrepeat.com/adidas-adizero-adios-9

benhurmarcel 5mo ago

They never claimed it was faster, but healthier