4 ms·
Posted to my in-laws, who asked how: Super shoes. Most shoes have carbon plates in them now, they act as a spring, storing energy and propelling athletes forwa
by spenjovewkwhalo 6mo ago
Posted to my in-laws, who asked how:
Super shoes. Most shoes have carbon plates in them now, they act as a spring, storing energy and propelling athletes forwards.
Better understanding of fuelling. Most athletes are taking between 100-120g carbs (sugar) per hour. Bicarbonate of soda has also been effective.
Better planning tools. Athletes look at elevation, headwind, tailwind and will plan a strategy around going harder into the hard stuff and knowing when they can back off and rest.
And to be honest, probably a metric tonne of PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) - unfortunately this is very common across all sports at the top level.
- k2enemy 6mo ago> Most shoes have carbon plates in them now, they act as a spring, storing energy and propelling athletes forwards. This seems unlikely to be true, although it is repeated in every article I read about carbon plated shoes. The people that study them in a lab environment seem to disagree. See some of the papers here: https://www.wouterhoogkamer.com/science2 https://www.wouterhoogkamer.com/science2 However, I agree wholeheartedly with the overall points in your post!
- spenjovewkwhalo 6mo agoOoooh, interesting- I’ll take a read, thanks! I’m guessing like most things of this nature, you’re likely to have super-responders, responders and non-responders?
- giarc 6mo agoMaybe even placebo effect?
- sampullman 6mo agoSo you think the Vaporfly prototypes Kipchoge wore in 2018 placebo'd him into crushing the world record by 78 seconds?
- fragmede 6mo agoThere's an almost inhuman amount of mind over matter psychology when it comes to endurance running. Unless you can duplicate reality multiple times and swap out the shoes without anyone knowing to do properly scientific testing, we can't know for sure what did it. (The shoes probably helped.)
- nickcoury 6mo agoQuite possible there's a psychological benefit from super shoes, they certainly feel fast. Though there are enough plausible mechanisms it's unlikely to be the major factor.
- nickcoury 6mo agoYes, most of the studies show there is a very large individual variation. The original 4% figure and similar studies were an average of something like 1-7% across runners. Also interestingly, the shoe in this record uses much less carbon than past shoes, both saving weight and allowing even more super foam where much of the energy return comes from. Though there so much variance in shoe design and materials there are only theories on how much comes from the plate vs foam vs stack height vs weight vs other factors.
- Maxion 6mo agoI read somewhere that the carbon plate is more to stabilize the shoe, that with only the foam the shoe would be very unstable.
- nickcoury 6mo agoYes, that's correct. There's a mistaken belief that it's the major source of performance improvements. It plays a role, but the bigger gains come from the stack height (limb lengthening effect) and the energy return of the foam. But that leads to very unstable shoes. The carbon gives rigidity to balance this out.
- jimt1234 6mo agoI thought those carbon plate shoes were barred from competition???
- lukeinator42 6mo agonope, nike vaporflys are super popular. There are usually limits on stack height for many marathons though.
- pcchristie 6mo agoPosted elsewhere, they have tightened regulations to clamp down on the "franken-shoes". 40mm stack height maximum One carbon plate only (some shoes were including a second). Must be on sale to the public for < 4 mths before the race in question Puma makes a shoe that's non-compliant with the above (two plates, not sure about the stack height), for what it's worth.
- nunez 6mo agoAs someone whose tallest shoes have a 10mm stack heigh, 40mm is crazy high!
- tejohnso 6mo ago> Super shoes. Most shoes have carbon plates in them now, they act as a spring, storing energy and propelling athletes forwards. I wonder where that leaves the barefoot movement. Hype dust?
- brewdad 6mo agoWas the barefoot movement ever about running faster? I always thought they sold injury prevention by strengthening tissues that running shoes tend to over support.
- nradov 6mo agoYes, that was the claim but it was never really backed by evidence. Vibram settled a lawsuit over false claims that their minimalist shoes reduced the risk of injuries. (I still like those shoes myself and use them on some slow recovery runs.) https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27335251 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27335251
- chabska 6mo agoThis topic deserves so much more nuance, but it's always reduced to "barefoot running doesn't work" in internet forums. In every articles about the harm caused by barefoot running I've read, those reported injuries all end up being overuse injuries. The article you linked is specifically about bone marrow edema, which is basically bone bruise. Other possible injuries include muscle and tendon soreness. If this were a bodybuilding discussion, you would get advice on how to manage DOMS symptoms and how to plan your loading schedule, nobody would say that weightlifting "doesn't work" because a beginner got sore after lifting a 80kg barbell for the first time. But people has been conditioned to think that running is a purely cardio activity, so we don't talk about how the muscles and tendons in the foot need to be loaded up gradually just like your bicep. Barefoot running is a weightlifting activity. Your calf muscle has to lift your entire bodyweight for the forefoot stride. "No pain no gain" applies. Proper posture and techniques are important. Proper workout schedule and loading plan with rest days are important. Sufficient protein intake are important.
- twobitshifter 6mo agoWell at least on the PED front, saw has been doing an extreme amount of testing to try to eliminate those doubts.
- nl 6mo ago> probably a metric tonne of PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) Note that Sawe funded extra testing drug testing for himself for the 2 months before winning the Berlin marathon. The testing followed Athletics Integrity Unit protocols (so surprise testing etc): https://www.letsrun.com/news/2026/04/how-sabastian-sawe-convinced-the-aiu-to-test-him-more-and-why-hes-doing-it-again-in-2026/ https://www.letsrun.com/news/2026/04/how-sabastian-sawe-conv...
- rao-v 6mo agoThis is news to me and genuinely impressive. Putting extra work into ensuring your attempt at one of the few records that will last the duration of humanity is damn smart.
- e44858 6mo agoDrug testing has its loopholes: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetorch/2016/07/19/486595080/report-russia-used-mouse-hole-to-swap-urine-samples-of-olympic-athletes https://www.npr.org/sections/thetorch/2016/07/19/486595080/r...
- nl 6mo agoYes it does. Pretty hard to use the in-competition avoidance strategy like that in this out of competition case though.
- mmooss 6mo ago> going harder into the hard stuff and knowing when they can back off and rest. Why is going harder in the hard stuff and easier in the easy stuff more efficient or faster than vice versa? I imagine arguments either way: Going harder when it's easy gives you higher ROI. Or maybe going easier when it's hard is just too slow. And maybe that is too simplistic: Maybe it depends on how hard; that is, maybe there is a threshold.
- bigiain 6mo agoCompletely uninformed speculation: Wind drag goes up with v squared, so power required goes up with v cubed. If you run at 105% speed downhill,that requires almost 16% more power to overcome wind drag. You might be better off running at 100% speed downhill (and "saving" that 16% power), and pushing harder to run as close as you can to 100% speed on the uphill stretches that would otherwise have you running slower than 100%. The power used to increase your potential energy going uphill is "zero sum" because you get it back when you go back downhill -n there no pesky v squared or v cubed non linearity there (assuming the race starts and finishes at the same elevation).
- rich_sasha 6mo agoA fun little effect is that average speed is time-averaged not distance-averaged. So when you go slower, you lose doubly - lower speed to average and over a longer time (higher weight). Hence one of the reasons why putting more energy into the harder bits is actually optimal.
- thinkingtoilet 6mo agoCan you not accuse people of cheating unless you have proof?
- spenjovewkwhalo 6mo agoYes, apologies.
- shusaku 6mo ago> Better understanding of fuelling. … Better planning tools. When I was young everyone acted like running was all about who could endure misery the longest. I think if I had known about these aspects it would’ve seemed more strategic and interesting (especially with smart phones to help). Alas, these days all my effort is in making sure my run doesn’t kill my knees :\
- xarope 6mo agothe consensus seems to be that the foam itself is the spring (hence the successful adidas evo sl and dynafish xiaonian), and the carbon plate/rod/whatever is more to control/manage that "spring".
- xutopia 6mo agoHeat training does much of what EPO used to do. It's amazing how much science has caught up in this field.