7 ms·

Cities that want to keep cars out of bike lanes should keep all cars out of them, autonomous or not, by ticketing them. But they don't, so taxis and delivery dr

Cities that want to keep cars out of bike lanes should keep all cars out of them, autonomous or not, by ticketing them. But they don't, so taxis and delivery drivers stop in them. That's traffic enforcement's fault. Given that human drivers stop in bike lanes, Waymo then has a tradeoff: 1) Be the only ones to follow the letter of the law, break a lot of people's expectations, and catch backlash for disrupting traffic. 2) Follow the most common expectation, even if wrong, and incrementally add to the problem. IMO, cyclists shouldn't lobby Waymo directly, but should lobby cities to actually enforce the rules on everyone. Then Waymo would fall in line naturally. And if they're inclined to take direct action against Waymo's they should also act against Uber and DoorDash drivers who are a far bigger problem by volume (and wait time for deliveries).

nandomrumber 6mo ago
Share the road. It works both ways.
- Arubis 6mo ago
  It does not work both ways. One party to this is a high-inertia, potentially high-velocity metal box that, in an impact with the other party, typically results in an property insurance claim. The other is a low-inertia flesh bag that, in an impact with the other party, results in a medical insurance claim, and possibly a funeral.
  - nandomrumber 6mo ago
    All the more reason to be aware of who you’re sharing the road with. I spent a decade cycling for commute in a capital city in Australia. I’m also a tradesman, so I’m well aware that some people actually work on the road. By being a pedestrian or cyclist, you’re literally in other people’s workplace. Delivery drivers, construction workers, breakdown services, road maintenance, electricians, crane operators, cars for hire, emergency services, light rail operators. As a pedestrian or cyclists, or motorbike rider, you’re particularly vulnerable. Sometimes you need to get out of the way. Share the road.
    - saagarjha 6mo ago
      Working on the road does not give you priority on the roads. If anything, if you’re making money off it, maybe you should be more mindful of the commons you’re using for your profession.
      - nandomrumber 5mo ago
        Didn’t your mumma teach you to share.
        saagarjha 5mo ago
        Didn’t yours teach you to put some more thought into how you engage with other people?
        nandomrumber 5mo ago
        No, they didn’t really. I dunno, maybe I just wasn’t as fortunate as you in some respects. > Working on the road does not give you priority on the roads. What are you even talking about? Of course it does. Look at any construction site next to a road where trucks are constantly stopping and cranes are operating. They’ll have part of the road cordoned off, or otherwise under their control. Signs that say detour / pedestrians use other footpaths. If there’s a heavy vehicle parked & unloading you don’t just fucking absentmindedly cycle full pelt in to the back of it, do you? Multiple categories of road users literally share thousands of roads everyday all over the world. Every day, millions of road users, drivers, pedestrians, cyclists go around cyclists and wait for pedestrians to clear the road before proceeding. I don’t know what planet you’re from, but the roads are literally a shared resource for the benefit of all. Share the road. I’m also open to the possibility that maybe I’m just a cunt.
        saagarjha 5mo ago
        You're being kind of rude right now, yes. You can present your points without being annoyingly patronizing. When you do construction, or any other event, you need to actually ask the city to put signs down monopolizing the road. It's not just there for you to take it. This is because the road is there for cars and bicycles and sometimes pedestrians too. Obviously the nature of being a person capable of thinking means that I should not walk/bike/drive into the intersection just because the light turned green if I see someone blasting through it anyway. But that does not mean they should be there, just like people are not supposed to park in the bike lanes.
- Rebelgecko 6mo ago
  That's why a lot of these signs are being replaced with "cyclists use full lane".
- llbeansandrice 5mo ago
  It’s a bike lane not a road. It’s mine as a cyclist gtfo.
seanmcdirmid 6mo ago
I’m pretty sure it went something like “so where are we allowed to pickup and drop off riders” and the city couldn’t answer. The problem isn’t really enforcement, the problem is that there are simply no alternatives, and the city shies away from enforcement because they know that. If they started enforcing the rules strictly, people would again ask questions that they aren’t prepared to answer. If you compare that to a country like the Netherlands, which is not only strict, but provides “solutions” so breaking the law isn’t necessary in the first place (they use explicit drop off and pickup locations instead of American chaos).
- californical 6mo ago
  Yes, in sane countries the rules are attempted to be defined in a fair way, and you can follow them. Not perfectly of course, but with that goal. Like the Netherlands, it is (A) not possible to park in bike paths without going intentionally out of your way, and (B) there are reasonable alternatives, such as specific “loading zones” for passengers on nearly every block, on major roads. On minor neighborhood roads, you can just block the road for a few seconds and it doesn’t matter The US is happy creating laws for everything that are impossible to follow, but only selectively enforced. It makes it so everyone always must break the law to exist in society, but will only face repercussions at the discretion of a police officer. It means that there are effectively no laws, because everyone has slightly different definitions of when something is “right” or not, and the police only enforce the most egregious cases, but they can also target you specifically for some other reason (discrimination, bias, etc) with no repercussions, since you were breaking the law after all.
  - zdragnar 6mo ago
    It's because the bike lanes are great PR but bad for votes, at least in the short term. City leaders love the greenwashing effect, but in the short term the percentage of people actually biking everywhere is very low, so it doesn't make sense for them to spend a ton of time and money to do it right. In a few years they'll get to put together a committee to discuss "learnings" and maybe they'll fix it if there are enough complaints, or maybe they'll just spend their time elsewhere as usual.
gambiting 6mo ago
>>Cities that want to keep cars out of bike lanes should keep all cars out of them, autonomous or not, by ticketing them. But they don't, so taxis and delivery drivers stop in them. That's traffic enforcement's fault. So to flip it around.....it's not Waymo's fault that they stop in bike lanes, but the fault of traffic enforcement? Is anyone forcing waymos to stop in bike lanes?
- amluto 6mo ago
  Many cities would stop functioning if everyone followed traffic laws — the whole system is built around drivers ignoring many rules. Businesses need deliveries to be unloaded and delivered. Customers need to get where they are going. And many cities do not actually leave space for loading and unloading. There’s a related issue that will become apparent as more cars drive themselves and take responsibility for their actions: speed limits. If traffic engineers want cars to drive 75mph, they should set a speed limit of 75mph.
  - gambiting 6mo ago
    Yes, but I hope we can both agree that if Waymo stops where it's not allowed, it's waymo's fault, not anyone elses, and definitely not the fault of traffic enforcement or lack of. Like you said - if traffic engineers wanted people to stop there they wouldn't have made it a bike lane.
    - amluto 6mo ago
      > Yes, but I hope we can both agree that if Waymo stops where it's not allowed, it's waymo's fault, not anyone elses I don’t really agree, at least not in a broad sense. If Waymo refused to stop and circled the block many times instead, and if Amazon trucks did the same thing, and taxis and such did the same thing, and the big trucks that deliver restaurant supplies did the same thing, etc, then bikes would be able to use their lanes freely but no one else would get much done. We live in a world where many useful things require people to break rules. Is it the fault of the rule breakers or of the rules?
SilverElfin 6mo ago
[flagged]
- spankalee 6mo ago
  Maybe drivers should stop thinking they're the center of the universe and consider pedestrians and bicyclists around them. It's more dangerous to block a bike lane, with the more vulnerable user, than a car lane. Other drivers can wait.
  - SilverElfin 6mo ago
    It’s not dangerous to block a bike lane. The bikers can wait. They are fewer in number and inconveniencing them is less problematic. If they’re worried about being vulnerable, they are free to ride at low speeds on the sidewalk, or just not use a bicycle.
    - saagarjha 6mo ago
      Riding at slow speeds on the sidewalk is illegal, similar to driving at low speeds through the bike lane.
      - SilverElfin 6mo ago
        It is not illegal in most cities. Although SF is an exception.
    - isthatafact 6mo ago
      In many places, bicyclists are not fewer in number, not that the distiction makes the rest of your comment rational.
dangus 6mo ago
Waymo and other taxi services are inherently bad for cyclists compared to increasing transit utilization and providing more ways to walk and cycle that feel and are safe. They’re even bad for drivers as they are more detrimental to traffic than personal car ownership. They take up space on the road even when they aren’t being used to transport anyone. I think we should spend less time worrying about ride share policy and spend more time working on the root cause of the need to drive so often. Achieving this goal is not something that necessitates giving up single family homes, or suburbs, or small towns, or the ability to own a personal car, or anything like that.
- azornathogron 6mo ago
  Taxis (and Uber etc) also take up space on the road when they only have their driver and no fare paying passenger on board, so I don't see that a Waymo is any worse than that. Both human-driven and robo-driven taxis are financially incentivised to spend as much time as possible carrying fare paying passengers and as little as possible driving empty to pick someone up. Anyway, I agree that walking, cycling, and public transit, are all IMHO preferable to any form of taxi.
- SR2Z 6mo ago
  Being around a Waymo makes me feel WAY safer than being around a human driver. If more cars were replaced, I would probably bike even more. Seriously, Waymos follow at a respectful distance and overtake me safely. They stop at stop signs. Sometimes they even stop and wait for me to make a decision about which way I'm heading.
  - dangus 6mo ago
    It's not "human driver versus waymo driver," it's "car versus no car" or "10 cars versus 2 cars" or "fast cars versus slow cars."
    - SR2Z 5mo ago
      No, it's the human driver vs the Waymo. I'm not going to entertain fantasies where all the cars magically disappear from the road; there's no political will for that and no politician is dumb enough to try. To be perfectly clear, the difference between an empty road and a Waymo is mostly academic if you're on a bike. The Waymo is just that good at respecting space.
SOLAR_FIELDS 6mo ago
Cities who want to keep cars out of bike lanes should stop offering “mom says we have bike lanes at home” repainting of streets. Create a curb and raise the bike lanes. It’s the only safe solution. I understand this is not realistic in a lot of scenarios but it is basically the only way you can achieve actual safety short of cement separators at the road level, which is basically a curb anyway. There’s just no reality where a bicycle can share the road unimpeded with a motor vehicle safely. No, plastic bollards are not enough. It needs to be either raised or a barrier enough that a car sideswiping it won’t cause the barrier to fail
- cosmotic 6mo ago
  I've seen people park in these curbed bike lanes too, completely blocking it off.
  - Ekaros 6mo ago
    Seems like they need to fenced off. Would also prevent jaywalking so in general increase safety of pedestrians forcing them to cross only at intersections.
    - bradleyjg 6mo ago
      Great, now how are we going to force bicyclists to open red lights and stop signs?
  - rolph 6mo ago
    ive also seen cyclists having to squeeze by, and are forced to offer up against the side of the blocking vehicle to avoid being hit, leaving pinstripes bumper to bumper.
  - rsynnott 5mo ago
    Clamping is a useful deterrent there.
- Shadowed_ 6mo ago
  Or they could fine them. And increase fine for each repetition so rich can't just pay to be jerks.
morkalork 6mo ago
Humans are flawed and need punishment to correct their behaviour. Waymos are autonomous and can have their behaviour corrected with a software update. These are not the same.
- spankalee 6mo ago
  It can't be so uneven. The other drivers will react irrationally if only a few cars obey those rules. Try doing your own drop offs in the car lane, when there's a bike late there, with traffic behind you. They'll often react dangerously.
  - llbeansandrice 5mo ago
    Dang maybe they shouldn’t be allowed to drive then
Arubis 6mo ago
Tickets are a discouragement. But physical barriers actually work.
notatoad 6mo ago
Per discussions elsewhere on the internet about this story, it appears that “the letter of the law” in London, where is article is about, is that all drivers are allowed to enter the bike lane to drop off passengers. As much as I might disagree with that, it’s crazy to expect Waymo to obey a law that doesn’t even exist.
- amiga386 6mo ago
  This is not the case. As you just read in the article: https://highwaycode.org.uk/rule-140/ https://highwaycode.org.uk/rule-140/ > Cycle lanes. These are shown by road markings and signs. You MUST NOT drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a solid white line during its times of operation. Do not drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a broken white line unless it is unavoidable. You MUST NOT park in any cycle lane whilst waiting restrictions apply. Law: Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984: Sections 5 & 8 Here's a cycle lane with a broken white line: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5159626,-0.1020373,3a,75y,178.34h,64.63t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-o7VVfE4pCjGe2cm2dWCsQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D25.373696440702588%26panoid%3D-o7VVfE4pCjGe2cm2dWCsQ%26yaw%3D178.34122843033046!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5159626,-0.1020373,3a,75y,17... You shouldn't enter, stop or park here unless it is "unavoidable". You're a taxi driver dropping off a passenger? That's not "unavoidable". Here's a cycle lane with an unbroken line: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5162184,-0.1047894,3a,75y,159.22h,70.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQTgbwJ5LYHe-oWsuUQXNFQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D19.89275273781061%26panoid%3DQTgbwJ5LYHe-oWsuUQXNFQ%26yaw%3D159.223899090537!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5162184,-0.1047894,3a,75y,15... The latter, no you CAN'T enter it to drop people off, no matter who you are. It is literally illegal to do so.
  - valicord 6mo ago
    You've quoted the rules which forbid parking and driving in the bike lane and then went on to confidently make up the part about stopping and dropping people off.
watwut 6mo ago
> 1) Be the only ones to follow the letter of the law, break a lot of people's expectations, and catch backlash for disrupting traffic. Plenty of drives dont use bike lanes. So, no, this is false issue. Waymo can simply act like literal majority of the drivers.
- SR2Z 6mo ago
  ...I don't know why you think that a majority of drivers respect bike lanes. They don't. Nearly every driver has parked a car in a bike lane at some point. At least in the US it's uncontroversial - the bike lanes tend to be so poorly designed and thought out that it's much easier for cars to use them than cyclists.
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
  - watwut 5mo ago
    I think majority respect them, because I drive bike in a city that is not exactly friendly to that. The situation is, some people break into them regularly, most dont.
sheepscreek 6mo ago
Hmm the problem is many cities don’t treat bike lanes for exclusive bike use. It’s “suggestive” at best. Though I don’t know enough about SF rules to weigh in on this specific issue.
messe 6mo ago
> 1) Be the only ones to follow the letter of the law, break a lot of people's expectations, and catch backlash for disrupting traffic Yes, they should do that. The fact that others don't follow it is completely irrelevant. I'm sorry if it doesn't help them meet their quarterly targets, but I don't think it's unreasonable for a Company to follow the fucking law when it comes to human safety. And if they can't, they should be dissolved and the directors prosecuted. If they truly can't grow without compromising people's safety and breaking the laws put in place to prevent them, then they shouldn't exist. End of.
- cassianoleal 6mo ago
  > The fact that others don't follow it is completely irrelevant. This shouldn't even be a discussion. Because someone kills a person, everyone else now needs to kill someone otherwise it breaks expectations? Madness...
  - messe 6mo ago
    The fact that both our comments are being downvoted is dumb. Over the last year, the vibe on site has become... concerning. Yeah, it's always leaned right wing capitalist. That's fine by itself—I like the contrast to my own views at times. I'm a lefty—very left compared to US "left"—but still have some right wing economic sympathies at times and in certain areas. There's actual discussion to be had there! But recently it seems like this site has gone off the fucking deep end in delusion when it comes to everything. The misogyny and transphobia has started becoming less and less hidden too. This is the first time I've logged in here in over a month, and I've seen my comments today getting flagged for arguing against a person saying that bicyclists have more fatalities on the road—just asking them to cite a fucking source. What you are saying is not controversial. You're not crazy. This site is just full of fucking idiots who haven't realised they're the next serfs in the reality they're bringing about.
expedition32 6mo ago
But AI apologists told me that we should allow driverless cars because they are safer...
- SR2Z 6mo ago
  Go to any city with driverless service and ask cyclists how they feel about Waymo vs humans. Or just keep hating on AI. Why let the truth stop you from having a good time?
slibhb 6mo ago
I agree with your analysis but I just want to point out that, as a general rule, cyclists do not follow traffic laws. They don't stop at stop signs/red lights. They weave in and out of traffic. They often bike the wrong way down one-way bike paths.
- danny_codes 6mo ago
  That seems irrelevant, we’re talking about cars. Also, of course bikers don’t follow car rules. Those rules are nonsensical for cyclists.
  - doug_durham 6mo ago
    In the US, bikes == cars. They are required to follow the same rules. I don’t find them nonsensical.
    - kelnos 6mo ago
      I used to agree with that (as a pedestrian and driver only), but as I've started cycling, I've begun to realize that many rules of the road, intended for cars, just don't make much sense for bicycles.
      - pandaman 6mo ago
        Like what? I hear people claim that not stopping at STOP sign is somehow making it safer than stopping but when asked about the mechanism of the safety in such a maneuver they either disappear or proclaim that Idaho where this is allowed is in top half of safest states for cyclists so it must work somehow. I cycle myself and see no rules that somehow don't make sense for bikes. In fact, since bikes are much less maneuverable and much more vulnerable, they need to obey all the rules that are there to protect the cars from other cars with more vigilance than cars.
        Rebelgecko 6mo ago
        I live in California so YMMV depending on the laws where you live and the temperament of drivers. If I do a "proper" stop at a stop sign (0mph, place foot on ground, fortunately I don't clip in), cars will see me stopping and try to blast thru the stop sign when it isn't their turn. So I end up stopping while the first car goes thru the intersection, and while I'm getting resituated on the pedals a second car enters instead of waiting their turn, making my situation more dangerous. One nice law we have in California is that the "walk" sign applies to pedestrians and bikes. This gives me a chance to assert myself in the intersection before the car across from me tries to sneak in a left turn. It also protects me from cars trying to turn across the bike lane.
themafia 6mo ago
You're comparing the actions of individuals with the actions of a for-profit company. These are not compatible. The expectations are that if you are driving for profit then you are held to a higher standard. Waymo wants to publicly excuse it's way out of this expectation for their own convenience. The way any common sociopath or selfish child would. Slow down and stop breaking things.
canpan 6mo ago
In Tokyo many bicycle lanes are pretty useless for this reason. Cars are parking every 20m making them absolutely inaccessible. Then there is the bicycle lane between Asakusa and Ueno, which is separated from the street, but made like some sort of obstacle course. There are some good ones too though. Pretty random.
socalgal2 6mo ago
I agree with you in priniciple but cities no longer have the money to enforce this and everyone knows it. What they do have is the ability to demand that Waymo give them video of every stop and use AI to detect if it obeyed the laws. I've had waymo drop me off in dangerous no-stopping zones with red painted curbs. I've had waymo pick wait for me to get in blocking apartment complex garage entrances. I've seen waymo pass 10 cars in the right lane waiting to turn right and then at the last moment make an illegal right turn left of the right turning cars. I like the idea of Waymo but they need to fix their shit, no excuses.
- HDThoreaun 5mo ago
  Witting tickets is revenue positive, “they don’t have the money” doesn’t make any sense
  - socalgal2 5mo ago
    You’d think so but apparently that’s not the case
    - foxyv 5mo ago
      https://qz.com/15-u-s-cities-making-the-most-money-from-parking-ticke-1851598823#15-cities-that-make-more-money-from-parking-tickets-than-anywhere-in-america https://qz.com/15-u-s-cities-making-the-most-money-from-park...
xnx 6mo ago
I commuted by bike 70 miles a week for a few years. Bike line obstruction was far down my list of concerns, behind: drivers looking at phones while driving, drivers looking at phones while stopped, drivers running stop signs without even noticing (probably looking at phone), driver speeding, cars belching smoke, etc.
culopatin 6mo ago
At times I dont know if I prefer a car blocking the lane than someone parked next to it and surprising me with a door that opens into the lane. For SF people: the bike lane next to the panhandle going west for example.

nandomrumber 6mo ago

Share the road. It works both ways.

Arubis 6mo ago
It does not work both ways. One party to this is a high-inertia, potentially high-velocity metal box that, in an impact with the other party, typically results in an property insurance claim. The other is a low-inertia flesh bag that, in an impact with the other party, results in a medical insurance claim, and possibly a funeral.
- nandomrumber 6mo ago
  All the more reason to be aware of who you’re sharing the road with. I spent a decade cycling for commute in a capital city in Australia. I’m also a tradesman, so I’m well aware that some people actually work on the road. By being a pedestrian or cyclist, you’re literally in other people’s workplace. Delivery drivers, construction workers, breakdown services, road maintenance, electricians, crane operators, cars for hire, emergency services, light rail operators. As a pedestrian or cyclists, or motorbike rider, you’re particularly vulnerable. Sometimes you need to get out of the way. Share the road.
  - saagarjha 6mo ago
    Working on the road does not give you priority on the roads. If anything, if you’re making money off it, maybe you should be more mindful of the commons you’re using for your profession.
    - nandomrumber 5mo ago
      Didn’t your mumma teach you to share.
      - saagarjha 5mo ago
        Didn’t yours teach you to put some more thought into how you engage with other people?
        nandomrumber 5mo ago
        No, they didn’t really. I dunno, maybe I just wasn’t as fortunate as you in some respects. > Working on the road does not give you priority on the roads. What are you even talking about? Of course it does. Look at any construction site next to a road where trucks are constantly stopping and cranes are operating. They’ll have part of the road cordoned off, or otherwise under their control. Signs that say detour / pedestrians use other footpaths. If there’s a heavy vehicle parked & unloading you don’t just fucking absentmindedly cycle full pelt in to the back of it, do you? Multiple categories of road users literally share thousands of roads everyday all over the world. Every day, millions of road users, drivers, pedestrians, cyclists go around cyclists and wait for pedestrians to clear the road before proceeding. I don’t know what planet you’re from, but the roads are literally a shared resource for the benefit of all. Share the road. I’m also open to the possibility that maybe I’m just a cunt.
        saagarjha 5mo ago
        You're being kind of rude right now, yes. You can present your points without being annoyingly patronizing. When you do construction, or any other event, you need to actually ask the city to put signs down monopolizing the road. It's not just there for you to take it. This is because the road is there for cars and bicycles and sometimes pedestrians too. Obviously the nature of being a person capable of thinking means that I should not walk/bike/drive into the intersection just because the light turned green if I see someone blasting through it anyway. But that does not mean they should be there, just like people are not supposed to park in the bike lanes.
Rebelgecko 6mo ago
That's why a lot of these signs are being replaced with "cyclists use full lane".
llbeansandrice 5mo ago
It’s a bike lane not a road. It’s mine as a cyclist gtfo.

seanmcdirmid 6mo ago

I’m pretty sure it went something like “so where are we allowed to pickup and drop off riders” and the city couldn’t answer. The problem isn’t really enforcement, the problem is that there are simply no alternatives, and the city shies away from enforcement because they know that. If they started enforcing the rules strictly, people would again ask questions that they aren’t prepared to answer. If you compare that to a country like the Netherlands, which is not only strict, but provides “solutions” so breaking the law isn’t necessary in the first place (they use explicit drop off and pickup locations instead of American chaos).

californical 6mo ago
Yes, in sane countries the rules are attempted to be defined in a fair way, and you can follow them. Not perfectly of course, but with that goal. Like the Netherlands, it is (A) not possible to park in bike paths without going intentionally out of your way, and (B) there are reasonable alternatives, such as specific “loading zones” for passengers on nearly every block, on major roads. On minor neighborhood roads, you can just block the road for a few seconds and it doesn’t matter The US is happy creating laws for everything that are impossible to follow, but only selectively enforced. It makes it so everyone always must break the law to exist in society, but will only face repercussions at the discretion of a police officer. It means that there are effectively no laws, because everyone has slightly different definitions of when something is “right” or not, and the police only enforce the most egregious cases, but they can also target you specifically for some other reason (discrimination, bias, etc) with no repercussions, since you were breaking the law after all.
- zdragnar 6mo ago
  It's because the bike lanes are great PR but bad for votes, at least in the short term. City leaders love the greenwashing effect, but in the short term the percentage of people actually biking everywhere is very low, so it doesn't make sense for them to spend a ton of time and money to do it right. In a few years they'll get to put together a committee to discuss "learnings" and maybe they'll fix it if there are enough complaints, or maybe they'll just spend their time elsewhere as usual.

gambiting 6mo ago

>>Cities that want to keep cars out of bike lanes should keep all cars out of them, autonomous or not, by ticketing them. But they don't, so taxis and delivery drivers stop in them. That's traffic enforcement's fault. So to flip it around.....it's not Waymo's fault that they stop in bike lanes, but the fault of traffic enforcement? Is anyone forcing waymos to stop in bike lanes?

amluto 6mo ago
Many cities would stop functioning if everyone followed traffic laws — the whole system is built around drivers ignoring many rules. Businesses need deliveries to be unloaded and delivered. Customers need to get where they are going. And many cities do not actually leave space for loading and unloading. There’s a related issue that will become apparent as more cars drive themselves and take responsibility for their actions: speed limits. If traffic engineers want cars to drive 75mph, they should set a speed limit of 75mph.
- gambiting 6mo ago
  Yes, but I hope we can both agree that if Waymo stops where it's not allowed, it's waymo's fault, not anyone elses, and definitely not the fault of traffic enforcement or lack of. Like you said - if traffic engineers wanted people to stop there they wouldn't have made it a bike lane.
  - amluto 6mo ago
    > Yes, but I hope we can both agree that if Waymo stops where it's not allowed, it's waymo's fault, not anyone elses I don’t really agree, at least not in a broad sense. If Waymo refused to stop and circled the block many times instead, and if Amazon trucks did the same thing, and taxis and such did the same thing, and the big trucks that deliver restaurant supplies did the same thing, etc, then bikes would be able to use their lanes freely but no one else would get much done. We live in a world where many useful things require people to break rules. Is it the fault of the rule breakers or of the rules?

SilverElfin 6mo ago

[flagged]

spankalee 6mo ago
Maybe drivers should stop thinking they're the center of the universe and consider pedestrians and bicyclists around them. It's more dangerous to block a bike lane, with the more vulnerable user, than a car lane. Other drivers can wait.
- SilverElfin 6mo ago
  It’s not dangerous to block a bike lane. The bikers can wait. They are fewer in number and inconveniencing them is less problematic. If they’re worried about being vulnerable, they are free to ride at low speeds on the sidewalk, or just not use a bicycle.
  - saagarjha 6mo ago
    Riding at slow speeds on the sidewalk is illegal, similar to driving at low speeds through the bike lane.
    - SilverElfin 6mo ago
      It is not illegal in most cities. Although SF is an exception.
  - isthatafact 6mo ago
    In many places, bicyclists are not fewer in number, not that the distiction makes the rest of your comment rational.

dangus 6mo ago

Waymo and other taxi services are inherently bad for cyclists compared to increasing transit utilization and providing more ways to walk and cycle that feel and are safe. They’re even bad for drivers as they are more detrimental to traffic than personal car ownership. They take up space on the road even when they aren’t being used to transport anyone. I think we should spend less time worrying about ride share policy and spend more time working on the root cause of the need to drive so often. Achieving this goal is not something that necessitates giving up single family homes, or suburbs, or small towns, or the ability to own a personal car, or anything like that.

azornathogron 6mo ago
Taxis (and Uber etc) also take up space on the road when they only have their driver and no fare paying passenger on board, so I don't see that a Waymo is any worse than that. Both human-driven and robo-driven taxis are financially incentivised to spend as much time as possible carrying fare paying passengers and as little as possible driving empty to pick someone up. Anyway, I agree that walking, cycling, and public transit, are all IMHO preferable to any form of taxi.
SR2Z 6mo ago
Being around a Waymo makes me feel WAY safer than being around a human driver. If more cars were replaced, I would probably bike even more. Seriously, Waymos follow at a respectful distance and overtake me safely. They stop at stop signs. Sometimes they even stop and wait for me to make a decision about which way I'm heading.
- dangus 6mo ago
  It's not "human driver versus waymo driver," it's "car versus no car" or "10 cars versus 2 cars" or "fast cars versus slow cars."
  - SR2Z 5mo ago
    No, it's the human driver vs the Waymo. I'm not going to entertain fantasies where all the cars magically disappear from the road; there's no political will for that and no politician is dumb enough to try. To be perfectly clear, the difference between an empty road and a Waymo is mostly academic if you're on a bike. The Waymo is just that good at respecting space.

SOLAR_FIELDS 6mo ago

Cities who want to keep cars out of bike lanes should stop offering “mom says we have bike lanes at home” repainting of streets. Create a curb and raise the bike lanes. It’s the only safe solution. I understand this is not realistic in a lot of scenarios but it is basically the only way you can achieve actual safety short of cement separators at the road level, which is basically a curb anyway. There’s just no reality where a bicycle can share the road unimpeded with a motor vehicle safely. No, plastic bollards are not enough. It needs to be either raised or a barrier enough that a car sideswiping it won’t cause the barrier to fail

cosmotic 6mo ago
I've seen people park in these curbed bike lanes too, completely blocking it off.
- Ekaros 6mo ago
  Seems like they need to fenced off. Would also prevent jaywalking so in general increase safety of pedestrians forcing them to cross only at intersections.
  - bradleyjg 6mo ago
    Great, now how are we going to force bicyclists to open red lights and stop signs?
- rolph 6mo ago
  ive also seen cyclists having to squeeze by, and are forced to offer up against the side of the blocking vehicle to avoid being hit, leaving pinstripes bumper to bumper.
- rsynnott 5mo ago
  Clamping is a useful deterrent there.
Shadowed_ 6mo ago
Or they could fine them. And increase fine for each repetition so rich can't just pay to be jerks.

morkalork 6mo ago

Humans are flawed and need punishment to correct their behaviour. Waymos are autonomous and can have their behaviour corrected with a software update. These are not the same.

spankalee 6mo ago
It can't be so uneven. The other drivers will react irrationally if only a few cars obey those rules. Try doing your own drop offs in the car lane, when there's a bike late there, with traffic behind you. They'll often react dangerously.
- llbeansandrice 5mo ago
  Dang maybe they shouldn’t be allowed to drive then

Arubis 6mo ago

Tickets are a discouragement. But physical barriers actually work.

notatoad 6mo ago

Per discussions elsewhere on the internet about this story, it appears that “the letter of the law” in London, where is article is about, is that all drivers are allowed to enter the bike lane to drop off passengers. As much as I might disagree with that, it’s crazy to expect Waymo to obey a law that doesn’t even exist.

amiga386 6mo ago
This is not the case. As you just read in the article: https://highwaycode.org.uk/rule-140/ https://highwaycode.org.uk/rule-140/ > Cycle lanes. These are shown by road markings and signs. You MUST NOT drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a solid white line during its times of operation. Do not drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a broken white line unless it is unavoidable. You MUST NOT park in any cycle lane whilst waiting restrictions apply. Law: Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984: Sections 5 & 8 Here's a cycle lane with a broken white line: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5159626,-0.1020373,3a,75y,178.34h,64.63t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-o7VVfE4pCjGe2cm2dWCsQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D25.373696440702588%26panoid%3D-o7VVfE4pCjGe2cm2dWCsQ%26yaw%3D178.34122843033046!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5159626,-0.1020373,3a,75y,17... You shouldn't enter, stop or park here unless it is "unavoidable". You're a taxi driver dropping off a passenger? That's not "unavoidable". Here's a cycle lane with an unbroken line: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5162184,-0.1047894,3a,75y,159.22h,70.11t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQTgbwJ5LYHe-oWsuUQXNFQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D19.89275273781061%26panoid%3DQTgbwJ5LYHe-oWsuUQXNFQ%26yaw%3D159.223899090537!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5162184,-0.1047894,3a,75y,15... The latter, no you CAN'T enter it to drop people off, no matter who you are. It is literally illegal to do so.
- valicord 6mo ago
  You've quoted the rules which forbid parking and driving in the bike lane and then went on to confidently make up the part about stopping and dropping people off.

watwut 6mo ago

> 1) Be the only ones to follow the letter of the law, break a lot of people's expectations, and catch backlash for disrupting traffic. Plenty of drives dont use bike lanes. So, no, this is false issue. Waymo can simply act like literal majority of the drivers.

SR2Z 6mo ago
...I don't know why you think that a majority of drivers respect bike lanes. They don't. Nearly every driver has parked a car in a bike lane at some point. At least in the US it's uncontroversial - the bike lanes tend to be so poorly designed and thought out that it's much easier for cars to use them than cyclists.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- watwut 5mo ago
  I think majority respect them, because I drive bike in a city that is not exactly friendly to that. The situation is, some people break into them regularly, most dont.

sheepscreek 6mo ago

Hmm the problem is many cities don’t treat bike lanes for exclusive bike use. It’s “suggestive” at best. Though I don’t know enough about SF rules to weigh in on this specific issue.

messe 6mo ago

> 1) Be the only ones to follow the letter of the law, break a lot of people's expectations, and catch backlash for disrupting traffic Yes, they should do that. The fact that others don't follow it is completely irrelevant. I'm sorry if it doesn't help them meet their quarterly targets, but I don't think it's unreasonable for a Company to follow the fucking law when it comes to human safety. And if they can't, they should be dissolved and the directors prosecuted. If they truly can't grow without compromising people's safety and breaking the laws put in place to prevent them, then they shouldn't exist. End of.

cassianoleal 6mo ago
> The fact that others don't follow it is completely irrelevant. This shouldn't even be a discussion. Because someone kills a person, everyone else now needs to kill someone otherwise it breaks expectations? Madness...
- messe 6mo ago
  The fact that both our comments are being downvoted is dumb. Over the last year, the vibe on site has become... concerning. Yeah, it's always leaned right wing capitalist. That's fine by itself—I like the contrast to my own views at times. I'm a lefty—very left compared to US "left"—but still have some right wing economic sympathies at times and in certain areas. There's actual discussion to be had there! But recently it seems like this site has gone off the fucking deep end in delusion when it comes to everything. The misogyny and transphobia has started becoming less and less hidden too. This is the first time I've logged in here in over a month, and I've seen my comments today getting flagged for arguing against a person saying that bicyclists have more fatalities on the road—just asking them to cite a fucking source. What you are saying is not controversial. You're not crazy. This site is just full of fucking idiots who haven't realised they're the next serfs in the reality they're bringing about.

expedition32 6mo ago

But AI apologists told me that we should allow driverless cars because they are safer...

SR2Z 6mo ago
Go to any city with driverless service and ask cyclists how they feel about Waymo vs humans. Or just keep hating on AI. Why let the truth stop you from having a good time?

slibhb 6mo ago

I agree with your analysis but I just want to point out that, as a general rule, cyclists do not follow traffic laws. They don't stop at stop signs/red lights. They weave in and out of traffic. They often bike the wrong way down one-way bike paths.

danny_codes 6mo ago
That seems irrelevant, we’re talking about cars. Also, of course bikers don’t follow car rules. Those rules are nonsensical for cyclists.
- doug_durham 6mo ago
  In the US, bikes == cars. They are required to follow the same rules. I don’t find them nonsensical.
  - kelnos 6mo ago
    I used to agree with that (as a pedestrian and driver only), but as I've started cycling, I've begun to realize that many rules of the road, intended for cars, just don't make much sense for bicycles.
    - pandaman 6mo ago
      Like what? I hear people claim that not stopping at STOP sign is somehow making it safer than stopping but when asked about the mechanism of the safety in such a maneuver they either disappear or proclaim that Idaho where this is allowed is in top half of safest states for cyclists so it must work somehow. I cycle myself and see no rules that somehow don't make sense for bikes. In fact, since bikes are much less maneuverable and much more vulnerable, they need to obey all the rules that are there to protect the cars from other cars with more vigilance than cars.
      - Rebelgecko 6mo ago
        I live in California so YMMV depending on the laws where you live and the temperament of drivers. If I do a "proper" stop at a stop sign (0mph, place foot on ground, fortunately I don't clip in), cars will see me stopping and try to blast thru the stop sign when it isn't their turn. So I end up stopping while the first car goes thru the intersection, and while I'm getting resituated on the pedals a second car enters instead of waiting their turn, making my situation more dangerous. One nice law we have in California is that the "walk" sign applies to pedestrians and bikes. This gives me a chance to assert myself in the intersection before the car across from me tries to sneak in a left turn. It also protects me from cars trying to turn across the bike lane.

themafia 6mo ago

You're comparing the actions of individuals with the actions of a for-profit company. These are not compatible. The expectations are that if you are driving for profit then you are held to a higher standard. Waymo wants to publicly excuse it's way out of this expectation for their own convenience. The way any common sociopath or selfish child would. Slow down and stop breaking things.

canpan 6mo ago

In Tokyo many bicycle lanes are pretty useless for this reason. Cars are parking every 20m making them absolutely inaccessible. Then there is the bicycle lane between Asakusa and Ueno, which is separated from the street, but made like some sort of obstacle course. There are some good ones too though. Pretty random.

socalgal2 6mo ago

I agree with you in priniciple but cities no longer have the money to enforce this and everyone knows it. What they do have is the ability to demand that Waymo give them video of every stop and use AI to detect if it obeyed the laws. I've had waymo drop me off in dangerous no-stopping zones with red painted curbs. I've had waymo pick wait for me to get in blocking apartment complex garage entrances. I've seen waymo pass 10 cars in the right lane waiting to turn right and then at the last moment make an illegal right turn left of the right turning cars. I like the idea of Waymo but they need to fix their shit, no excuses.

HDThoreaun 5mo ago
Witting tickets is revenue positive, “they don’t have the money” doesn’t make any sense
- socalgal2 5mo ago
  You’d think so but apparently that’s not the case
  - foxyv 5mo ago
    https://qz.com/15-u-s-cities-making-the-most-money-from-parking-ticke-1851598823#15-cities-that-make-more-money-from-parking-tickets-than-anywhere-in-america https://qz.com/15-u-s-cities-making-the-most-money-from-park...

xnx 6mo ago

I commuted by bike 70 miles a week for a few years. Bike line obstruction was far down my list of concerns, behind: drivers looking at phones while driving, drivers looking at phones while stopped, drivers running stop signs without even noticing (probably looking at phone), driver speeding, cars belching smoke, etc.

culopatin 6mo ago

At times I dont know if I prefer a car blocking the lane than someone parked next to it and surprising me with a door that opens into the lane. For SF people: the bike lane next to the panhandle going west for example.