5 ms·

Spanish archaeologists discover trove of ancient shipwrecks in Bay of Gibraltar

129 points by 1659447091 6mo ago

redsocksfan45 6mo ago
[dead]
somebehemoth 6mo ago
I want to ask a dumb question: if it was known that this area was high traffic, why are archaeologists only just now discovering these wrecks? Is it not obvious to search this area for wrecks given its history? The article hints that climate change is increasing urgency. Is the case here that we knew there should be wrecks here, but climate change made the search happen?
- BurningFrog 6mo ago
  There are VASTLY more interesting archeological sites than the world has resources to investigate!
  - lukan 6mo ago
    Yes, the priorities are rather to invest into expensive hardware, to blow up interesting archeological sites.
    - draw_down 6mo ago
      [dead]
- epenn 6mo ago
  While I can't speak for these wrecks specifically, archeology as a field is chronically underfunded. They have to pick and choose their battles.
  - narag 6mo ago
    That's the main reason. Also marine archeology is expensive. I once heard an archeologist saying that if the rests have passed centuries underwater, one more is less harmful than looters.
    - greggsy 6mo ago
      Underwater sites are particularly harder to protect from looters than above / underground sites. If the stakes are high enough, scuba diving is a reasonable option for the criminally minded. It wasn’t long before Costa Concordia was looted for its treasures.
      - lifestyleguru 6mo ago
        > It wasn’t long before Costa Concordia was looted for its treasures. What treasures were there, panties of Francesco's Moldavian lover?
        manarth 6mo ago
        Passengers possessions - e.g. jewelry, watches. Technical equipment on the ship. Items from the on-ship shops. Interesting artefacts (ships bells are often a prized loot from wrecks).
- darksaints 6mo ago
  I've actually had this conversation before with an archeologist with some naval archeology experience. Shipwreck hunting is ridiculously expensive. The resources required to exhaustively explore 100 sqm of space is probably 1000x of the resources required to do it on land. There aren't any easy shortcuts: radar doesn't work underwater, sonar does but is extremely low resolution, lidar works pretty well but only if the water is very shallow and clear, underwater drones have extremely limited mobility and communication capability. A lot of funding in archeology tends to go to easier or higher probability wins, which has mostly been aerial lidar in heavy vegetation areas for the past 10-15 years. The best shipwreck hunters rely almost entirely on probabilistic models for where they might find shipwrecks, and the most useful probabilistic models have all developed in the last 30-40 years. In fact, some of the best probabilistic models like Bayesian Search Theory actually originated as a formalization of heuristics that were already used in treasure/shipwreck hunting. In that respect, I would argue that this find is actually the result of recent advances in probabilistic modeling (along with other advances in data engineering with respect to extremely messy historical data sources) that have just barely gotten accurate enough to start getting the funding it needs to do the harder work of actually working on the sea floor.
  - troad 6mo ago
    It's also worth remembering how little money goes into archaeology in general. I can think of two nationally-significant archaeological sites in Central Europe - both were partially excavated about fifty years ago, to varying but fairly limited degrees, and then gently reburied, because there wasn't enough money to keep things going. The site of one has a poorly-trafficked tourist centre today, the other is a clearing with nothing more than a tourist plaque. Both are likely candidates for previous capital cities, so they are obviously significant, but the money just isn't there to do anything about them. I seem to recall reading somewhere that over 90% of one of the sites remains unexcavated. These are land sites, so relatively inexpensive compared to sea sites. If this is how willing we are to fund nationally-significant land digs, I imagine sea archaeology would be comparatively even more impossible to fund.
    - Larrikin 6mo ago
- ionwake 6mo ago
  grew up around there, honestly, just not much going on other than bored rich folk and poor folk trying to make a living.
jumpyjumps 6mo ago
The orcas have been sinking boats for longer than we thought.
stavros 6mo ago
This is off topic, but is it legal for websites to ask me to either accept tracking or pay? I thought the GDPR made tracking truly optional.
- victorbjorklund 6mo ago
  It is a gray zone. Some national regulatory agencies has said ”pay or consent” is compatible with GDPR and some have said it is not. It hasn’t yet been tested by the EU court.
- gib444 6mo ago
  You can't usually force a business to do business with you (i.e. serve you content, for free) even in the EU IANAL but the legal argument seems pretty simple to me based on that concept, so I wonder if that's why it hasn't gone to court yet? Do we as users even want it to? Imagine if the organisations won...
- nottorp 6mo ago
  The Guardian is in the UK, but I've seen dialogs like that even on some german sites, so i guess it's legal.
- petesergeant 6mo ago
  > is it legal for websites to ask me to either accept tracking or pay It's complicated and actively being ruled on in different ways by different countries.
teleforce 6mo ago
Fun facts, Gibraltar was named after Tariq ibn Ziyad, a famous muslim Berber commander of the Umayyad Caliphate that conquered most of the Spain and some part of French territories in the early 8th century CE [1]. Then after the conquest, came the exiled young Umayyad prince (escaping from by the later Abbasid Caliphate), who settled in Spain to create a long lasting around 800 years (that's more than European living in America now) muslim Spanish empire with its knowledge center in Toledo. This center contains many books translations and also many new books by muslim scholars. Famous books examples including Almagest Arabic translation that was copied and translated further into Latin, and studied by Copernicus and Galileo [2]. Of course they are other muslim astronomy books and ideas that Copernicus and Galileo studied and copied but never cited properly [3]. Another famous book is Muqaddimah by Ibnu-Rushd or Averroes that's widely considered as the very first work dealing with the social sciences of sociology, demography and cultural history [4]. This center was later captured in 11th century CE, and this event essentially started the Western Renaissance movement in Europe. Legend has it, in order to motivate his troops, Tariq ordered to scuttle their entire ships armada, before advancing into Spain [5]. Perhaps some of the sinked ships are part of Tariq's original armada, but these ships were intentionally sinked not by accidents. His act of bravery were copied and followed by later Spanish conquerers but as usual it's not been properly credited to Tariq's original efforts [6]. [1] Tariq ibn Ziyad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_ibn_Ziyad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_ibn_Ziyad [2] Galileo's handwritten notes found in ancient astronomy text (42 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47263938 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47263938 [3] Islamic Astronomy and Copernicus [pdf]: (https://www.tuba.gov.tr/files/yayinlar/bilim-ve-dusun/TUBA-978-625-8352-02-3.pdf https://www.tuba.gov.tr/files/yayinlar/bilim-ve-dusun/TUBA-9...) [4] Muqaddimah of Ibnu Khaldin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqaddimah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqaddimah [5] The Legend of Tariq ibn Ziyad and the Burning of Ships: https://arabic-for-nerds.com/islam/conquest-andalus/ https://arabic-for-nerds.com/islam/conquest-andalus/ [6] Richard A. Luecke - Scuttle Your Ships before Advancing: And Other Lessons from History.
- elnatro 6mo ago
  > 800 years (that's more than European living in America now) muslim Spanish empire with its knowledge center in Toledo The Muslim dominion of the Iberian Peninsula did not last 800 years. The Muslim invasion started in 711 CE, and by 1085 Toledo has fallen back to the Christian kingdom of León. Granada would eventually be conquered in 1492, but most of the old Visigothic Kingdom was already in the hands of the Christians.
pelasaco 6mo ago
https://archive.ph/iLzyb https://archive.ph/iLzyb

129 points by 1659447091 6mo ago

[dead]

I want to ask a dumb question: if it was known that this area was high traffic, why are archaeologists only just now discovering these wrecks? Is it not obvious to search this area for wrecks given its history? The article hints that climate change is increasing urgency. Is the case here that we knew there should be wrecks here, but climate change made the search happen?

BurningFrog 6mo ago
There are VASTLY more interesting archeological sites than the world has resources to investigate!
- lukan 6mo ago
  Yes, the priorities are rather to invest into expensive hardware, to blow up interesting archeological sites.
  - draw_down 6mo ago
    [dead]
epenn 6mo ago
While I can't speak for these wrecks specifically, archeology as a field is chronically underfunded. They have to pick and choose their battles.
- narag 6mo ago
  That's the main reason. Also marine archeology is expensive. I once heard an archeologist saying that if the rests have passed centuries underwater, one more is less harmful than looters.
  - greggsy 6mo ago
    Underwater sites are particularly harder to protect from looters than above / underground sites. If the stakes are high enough, scuba diving is a reasonable option for the criminally minded. It wasn’t long before Costa Concordia was looted for its treasures.
    - lifestyleguru 6mo ago
      > It wasn’t long before Costa Concordia was looted for its treasures. What treasures were there, panties of Francesco's Moldavian lover?
      - manarth 6mo ago
        Passengers possessions - e.g. jewelry, watches. Technical equipment on the ship. Items from the on-ship shops. Interesting artefacts (ships bells are often a prized loot from wrecks).
darksaints 6mo ago
I've actually had this conversation before with an archeologist with some naval archeology experience. Shipwreck hunting is ridiculously expensive. The resources required to exhaustively explore 100 sqm of space is probably 1000x of the resources required to do it on land. There aren't any easy shortcuts: radar doesn't work underwater, sonar does but is extremely low resolution, lidar works pretty well but only if the water is very shallow and clear, underwater drones have extremely limited mobility and communication capability. A lot of funding in archeology tends to go to easier or higher probability wins, which has mostly been aerial lidar in heavy vegetation areas for the past 10-15 years. The best shipwreck hunters rely almost entirely on probabilistic models for where they might find shipwrecks, and the most useful probabilistic models have all developed in the last 30-40 years. In fact, some of the best probabilistic models like Bayesian Search Theory actually originated as a formalization of heuristics that were already used in treasure/shipwreck hunting. In that respect, I would argue that this find is actually the result of recent advances in probabilistic modeling (along with other advances in data engineering with respect to extremely messy historical data sources) that have just barely gotten accurate enough to start getting the funding it needs to do the harder work of actually working on the sea floor.
- troad 6mo ago
  It's also worth remembering how little money goes into archaeology in general. I can think of two nationally-significant archaeological sites in Central Europe - both were partially excavated about fifty years ago, to varying but fairly limited degrees, and then gently reburied, because there wasn't enough money to keep things going. The site of one has a poorly-trafficked tourist centre today, the other is a clearing with nothing more than a tourist plaque. Both are likely candidates for previous capital cities, so they are obviously significant, but the money just isn't there to do anything about them. I seem to recall reading somewhere that over 90% of one of the sites remains unexcavated. These are land sites, so relatively inexpensive compared to sea sites. If this is how willing we are to fund nationally-significant land digs, I imagine sea archaeology would be comparatively even more impossible to fund.
  - Larrikin 6mo ago
ionwake 6mo ago
grew up around there, honestly, just not much going on other than bored rich folk and poor folk trying to make a living.

jumpyjumps 6mo ago

The orcas have been sinking boats for longer than we thought.

stavros 6mo ago

This is off topic, but is it legal for websites to ask me to either accept tracking or pay? I thought the GDPR made tracking truly optional.

victorbjorklund 6mo ago
It is a gray zone. Some national regulatory agencies has said ”pay or consent” is compatible with GDPR and some have said it is not. It hasn’t yet been tested by the EU court.
gib444 6mo ago
You can't usually force a business to do business with you (i.e. serve you content, for free) even in the EU IANAL but the legal argument seems pretty simple to me based on that concept, so I wonder if that's why it hasn't gone to court yet? Do we as users even want it to? Imagine if the organisations won...
nottorp 6mo ago
The Guardian is in the UK, but I've seen dialogs like that even on some german sites, so i guess it's legal.
petesergeant 6mo ago
> is it legal for websites to ask me to either accept tracking or pay It's complicated and actively being ruled on in different ways by different countries.

teleforce 6mo ago

Fun facts, Gibraltar was named after Tariq ibn Ziyad, a famous muslim Berber commander of the Umayyad Caliphate that conquered most of the Spain and some part of French territories in the early 8th century CE [1]. Then after the conquest, came the exiled young Umayyad prince (escaping from by the later Abbasid Caliphate), who settled in Spain to create a long lasting around 800 years (that's more than European living in America now) muslim Spanish empire with its knowledge center in Toledo. This center contains many books translations and also many new books by muslim scholars. Famous books examples including Almagest Arabic translation that was copied and translated further into Latin, and studied by Copernicus and Galileo [2]. Of course they are other muslim astronomy books and ideas that Copernicus and Galileo studied and copied but never cited properly [3]. Another famous book is Muqaddimah by Ibnu-Rushd or Averroes that's widely considered as the very first work dealing with the social sciences of sociology, demography and cultural history [4]. This center was later captured in 11th century CE, and this event essentially started the Western Renaissance movement in Europe. Legend has it, in order to motivate his troops, Tariq ordered to scuttle their entire ships armada, before advancing into Spain [5]. Perhaps some of the sinked ships are part of Tariq's original armada, but these ships were intentionally sinked not by accidents. His act of bravery were copied and followed by later Spanish conquerers but as usual it's not been properly credited to Tariq's original efforts [6]. [1] Tariq ibn Ziyad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_ibn_Ziyad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_ibn_Ziyad [2] Galileo's handwritten notes found in ancient astronomy text (42 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47263938 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47263938 [3] Islamic Astronomy and Copernicus [pdf]: (https://www.tuba.gov.tr/files/yayinlar/bilim-ve-dusun/TUBA-978-625-8352-02-3.pdf https://www.tuba.gov.tr/files/yayinlar/bilim-ve-dusun/TUBA-9...) [4] Muqaddimah of Ibnu Khaldin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqaddimah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqaddimah [5] The Legend of Tariq ibn Ziyad and the Burning of Ships: https://arabic-for-nerds.com/islam/conquest-andalus/ https://arabic-for-nerds.com/islam/conquest-andalus/ [6] Richard A. Luecke - Scuttle Your Ships before Advancing: And Other Lessons from History.

elnatro 6mo ago
> 800 years (that's more than European living in America now) muslim Spanish empire with its knowledge center in Toledo The Muslim dominion of the Iberian Peninsula did not last 800 years. The Muslim invasion started in 711 CE, and by 1085 Toledo has fallen back to the Christian kingdom of León. Granada would eventually be conquered in 1492, but most of the old Visigothic Kingdom was already in the hands of the Christians.

pelasaco 6mo ago

https://archive.ph/iLzyb https://archive.ph/iLzyb