8 ms·
because America's not rich; like 100 people here just have more money than most countries
by functionmouse 5mo ago
because America's not rich; like 100 people here just have more money than most countries
- some_random 5mo agoThat's just objectively untrue. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-in...
- david927 5mo ago- Around 76% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. - 71% of adults say that their monthly debt payments prevent them from saving. When we say America, we can't just mean the 20% who are ok. It has to mean the 70% who aren't. America is not rich. It used to be. It is not now.
- mathgradthrow 5mo agoYou are responding to data about the median American.
- david927 5mo agoNo I'm not. I'm responding to data about median income adjusted for PPP, and not adjusted for social services such as healthcare. Big difference.
- john_strinlai 5mo agoincome data about the median american. income data alone does not tell a very complete story.
- mathgradthrow 5mo agoIncome is by far the dominant term, you're being ridiculous.
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- ipsento606 5mo ago> living paycheck to paycheck. This phrase is used so often, but I don't know how meaningful it is supposed to be A family might make $300,000 a year and be living "paycheck-to-paycheck" while also maxing out 401k contributions, paying a mortgage on a $2 million home, and paying $80,000 a year in private school tuition. Are we supposed to think that such a family is in worse financial shape than a family making $40,000 a year but with minimal expenses and a few months of living costs in a savings account?
- bombcar 5mo agoIt's somewhat of a mindset question and somewhat of a wealth question. Mr $300k may have zero months in an emergency account, but be stable in his job as a doctor and not worry about finding work - and may actually "feel poor" because he barely has any "fun money" to waste and feels he can't buy coffee in the morning. Mr $40k a year may have 6 months of expenses in the bank, saving half his income to FIRE, and know that anytime he wants to he can buy that coffee - and sometimes he does. Net worth likely says Mr $300k is worth more than Mr $40k - but that may not be true forever, and Mr $40k may be "retired" at 50 while Mr $300k is perpetually working until death. Who is rich, who has wealth, and who is happy? There are no clear answers.
- some_random 5mo agoYou're missing the third question which is of definitions. There's an other person Mr $65k who after all their necessary expenses has $1k left over each paycheck that they spend on dinners out, concert tickets, vacations, etc so that at the end of the month they are left with no additional savings. Are they living paycheck to paycheck?
- kelnos 5mo agoMaybe? I mean, should we live in a world where the only way to create savings is by denying yourself any fun? You've picked a number, $1k, because it sounds good to support your argument, but maybe after paying for the essentials, a family has $200 left per month. Should we expect that family to never go to the movie theater, never go out to a restaurant, never splurge on a nice piece of clothing or jewelry, never do anything fun at all? Do we think it's ok for people to have to live like that? So sure, maybe if they spend that $200 on fun stuff, it's not "living paycheck to paycheck". But maybe that's just a bad metric, or just too poorly-defined to be a reasonable way to measure anything.
- knubie 5mo agoMost people in America don't live paycheck to paycheck or rack up massive debt because they're poor. They do it because they're financially illiterate, over-consume, or both. A few watch-through's of Caleb Hammer's financial audit show will disabuse you of this belief.
- some_random 5mo agoFun fact, that's also untrue or at least dubious. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/may/16/facebook-posts/though-many-americans-live-paycheck-paycheck-some-/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/may/16/facebook-p...
- JKCalhoun 5mo ago"Data from 2020 through 2022 found that between 50% and 63% of Americans report living paycheck to paycheck." (Well, that's a relief.)
- some_random 5mo agoOne bullet point down: "But there is no clear definition for the phrase "paycheck to paycheck," so people should be skeptical of statistics based on the concept, one economist said."
- jandrewrogers 5mo ago> Around 76% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. Not for any meaningful definition of "living paycheck to paycheck". Per Federal Reserve studies, the percentage of the population with no excess income after paying for necessary expenses is 10-15%. That's still a lot of people but it isn't 76%. For everyone else, it is a lifestyle choice. Per the BLS, the median household has ~$1,000 leftover every month after all ordinary (not necessary) expenses. That includes rent, car payments, healthcare, etc. Americans have a crazy amount of discretionary income compared to the rest of the world.
- david927 5mo ago71% of adults say that their monthly debt payments prevent them from saving. So why don't they take it out of that thousand they have at the end of each month? America is suffering economically and I don't think we help anything when we pretend it's not.
- nradov 5mo agoNo one forced those people to take on a $1000 monthly car loan payment.
- partiallypro 5mo agoAmerica is very very rich, the average person is much wealthier than the average European. 76% of Americans do not live paycheck to paycheck. That is a self reported stat and not reliable. It's a media sensationalist headline grabber which virtually every economist ignores. People don't like saying America is rich because it defies their beliefs, but the actual stats don't lie. Every American I know that has moved to Europe (and I have lived there as well, in Munich) moved there with, shock...American money and savings. So they don't actually get the initial start many Europeans do and it clouds their view to think that's just how all Europeans live. That doesn't guarantee that this will always be true, but given Europe's current trajectory, even with the US's many shortcomings...it's hard to say Europe will catch up anytime soon.
- some_random 5mo agoOne quick correction, it's not a self reported stat, it's a stat from a viral tiktok that comes from maybe a 2013 survey on a personal finance site.
- bombcar 5mo ago> 2013 survey on a personal finance site E.g, self-reported but with TikTok noise added. All of this stuff tries to be factual and scientific about something that is a feeling, really - if you're $80k in debt (not that I know ANYONE like that no, sirreeeeee!) and have no plan and don't even know how much you owe each month, you're going to be stressed and pissed and always surprised. If you're in the exact same situation but have it all documented and budgeted and planned for (what I call "knowing exactly how fucked you are") you'll be much better off mentally even if not financially (at first, that will follow).
- hunterpayne 5mo agoSo it has selection bias in addition to the bias from self reporting. Got it. Your stats professor is crying somewhere.
- bean469 5mo ago> 76% of Americans do not live paycheck to paycheck. That is a self reported stat and not reliable. Do you have any sources for this? The reason why I personally don't believe your claim is because every single US citizen I know lives paycheck-to-paycheck, quite literally
- WalterBright 5mo ago> Around 76% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. A lot of people are "see money spend money". Regardless of their paycheck amount, they find ways to spend it all. This does not mean they are poor. Pro football players, for example, are famous for quickly spending their $millions into bankruptcy.
- CorrectHorseBat 5mo agoMedian doesn't say anything about the extremes and income isn't wealth.
- dv_dt 5mo agoWhile it's a key indicator, even PPP adjusted income metrics are insufficient to compare happiness. e.g even if PPP may adjust for some aspects of outsized US health care costs, the risk and unreliability of access and affordability of US healthcare is not reflected in median income values.
- some_random 5mo agoYeah I totally agree that income and happiness are not interchangeable, I'm just really tired of people lying about objective facts.
- dv_dt 5mo agoI have no quibble with the objective facts, but we are talking about happiness, and answers are being returned about wealth, and the discussion was talking about how wealth does not equate to happiness in some measures - particularly in terms of factors of life stability, like reasonable access to healthcare...
- some_random 5mo agoThat's super cool, in this particular comment thread that's not what we're talking about.
- david927 5mo agoEvery single court case is two sides bringing forward only "objective facts" by definition. It's not that one side brings lies and the other facts. They both bring objective facts. So why does it always end with the judgement falling on one side? Because facts do not a complete case make.
- hunterpayne 5mo agoIf we outlawed that, every single politician and journalist would be in prison for the rest of their natural lives along with most of the people who follow politics too much. Perhaps that's a good idea, perhaps not.
- JKCalhoun 5mo agoI see Norway on that list (no surprise). What is so sad is how much better it could be in the U.S.… but for some odd notion that Billionaires and Corporations are thought to owe so little and the people of this country thought to deserve so little.
- some_random 5mo agoIf only the US was a petrostate, that would solve all our problems.
- eloisant 5mo agoI can't tell if you're sarcastic or not! You're aware that the US is the biggest oil producer in the world?
- Geee 5mo agoNot per capita. Norway produces roughly 6x more oil than the US per capita. Also, TIL that Guyana is the world's top oil producer per capita. See: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/oil-prod-per-capita?country=USA~SAU~KWT~ARE~OWID_EUR~NOR~GUY~QAT https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/oil-prod-per-capita?count...
- themanualstates 5mo agoYou're forgetting the us is #1 in producing natural gas, at 1,069,000m3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_g... Russia and Iran are the second and third largest suppliers, but their goods are sanctioned. They also 'only' produce half / a quarter of US output. Also contrast this with, China (#4) and Qatar (#6) that produce 258 and 170 billion m3 respectively.
- bigtex88 5mo ago"Petrostate" meaning that the proceeds of the petroleum we sell is turned around and used for the betterment of the entire state. I think it's clear what OP was saying and you're being purposefully obtuse about this. It means nothing for the US to be the biggest oil producer in the world when the proceeds and riches of "producing" that oil are hoarded by a small number of oil barons.
- iso1631 5mo agoSlightly exaggerated The top 10 individually have more wealth than Iceland, which is 83rd. The top 25 combined have a wealth of $3.2t, more than Belgium, which is 20th.
- some_random 5mo agoThe wealth of the top 100 individuals is not the claim, the claim is that the rest of the nation is actually poor if you don't include them, which is total nonsense.
- abraxas 5mo agoThis is not terribly informative until expenses and safety nets are taken into account. Someone living in the Netherlands may have that 20% lower median income but being able to rely on public healthcare and get around without a personal vehicle does wonders for one's sense of peace and agency. That likely counts a lot more towards personal wellbeing than the addtional dollars in your account especially when health concerns can turn into financial concerns quite quickly.
- some_random 5mo agoThe comment I am responding to is "because America's not rich; like 100 people here just have more money than most countries" not whatever you think I am responding to.
- jandrewrogers 5mo agoThat isn't a coherent argument; the latter does not support the former. The median American has a lot of money and disposable income compared to almost any other country.
- ljf 5mo agoLook at the US median and consider again how many times that figure your own salary is. And then ask your if that person on the median salary has a lot of disposable income? They might be richer than someone in a poorer country, but the median in the USA, is not rich _in_ the USA.
- bombcar 5mo agoRich is relative, it's always somewhere around "makes twice what I do" and poor is "makes half what I do" - and I'm, of course, solidly middle class. This seems to be true if I'm flipping burgers at McDs or if I'm on a first-name basis with Warren Buffett.
- metalliqaz 5mo agoA lot of money, but disposable? HCOL takes up the slack in so many cases.
- kdheiwns 5mo agoAmerica is in a weird situation where people have a lot of money in terms of the number and it converts well to other currencies. But it feels worthless within American borders. An American can get a very sad and bad sandwich for about $20 in a mid sized American city. They can get a full meal with fresh ingredients in most of the rest of the world for $10 (no tip either). Some places even under $5. An American can rent a dump in a high crime city for $2000 a month. They can get a nice home for $500 a month in many other countries. An American can pay hundreds a month for health insurance that rejects their claims and covers absolutely nothing, resulting in a medical bill of tens of thousands of dollars. Medicines can cost thousands as well. They can pay out of pocket for treatment in another country and it'll cost hundreds, and medicine will cost a few bucks.
- fl4regun 5mo agothere's over 20 million millionaires in the USA, that's like, what, 1 in 20?
- QuantumFunnel 5mo agoA net worth millionaire nowadays is just a person who bought a single family home at least 10 years ago. A million bucks is not what it used to be.
- fl4regun 5mo agoI'm sorry a million dollars is still a huge amount of money for normal people, whether it comes from their home or otherwise.
- matwood 5mo agoDon't they usually take out the primary residence when doing the calculation? It still doesn't mean someone is completely liquid as I'm guessing many people have their money in tax deferred accounts they can't access until old age.
- mikestew 5mo agoDon't they usually take out the primary residence when doing the calculation? Typically, it would seem that is indeed the case from most calculations I've seen. I mean, are you really worth a million dollars if you have to be homeless to access those dollars?
- eloisant 5mo agoYou can get those dollars back and rent your home. Or buy a cheaper one.
- rawgabbit 5mo agoI would wager a lot of "wealth" is in the value of the homes they live in. That is it is illiquid wealth they cannot use. When you factor in medical debt, their liquid wealth is a lot less rosy.
- cmiles8 5mo agoThe US is broadly wealthier. Folks like to bash the US, but it is wealthier.
- lanthissa 5mo agothis isn't accurate. america has a wealth per adult of 551,350 germany has a wealth per adult of 256,180 if you exclude the top 10 highest wealth holders in each country its 543,385 vs 252,811. america's a rich country compared most other countries its also got huge wealth in equality because its top .001% is something that doesn't exist anywhere else
- mbgerring 5mo agoNow compare what you can get for that money in both countries, and you will inevitably discover that the German is wealthier in every way that matters.
- shimman 5mo agoWait, you're telling me that I shouldn't have to work a $200k job in order to get 4 weeks of PTO?
- hunterpayne 5mo agoCounterpoint, when I lived in Spain, I had to remember never to talk about money with the locals in any way. They were poorer than anyone I have ever met in the US. They literally had to go without water at times because they couldn't afford to buy a bottle for $2. And there is no such thing as free water there. And this was in Barcelona, their richest city. For reference, everything there is about half the cost of the US but their average income was 1/4 of the US. PS The only thing Germany is richer in than the US is snobbery and rudeness. Seriously, I wouldn't live there for any amount of income or cost.
- spwa4 5mo agossshhhh ... in reality it's of course the case that the poorer a country is, the more unequal it is. In Pakistan the gulf between rich and poor is easily 100x what it is in the US. The most luxurious hotels in the world, the most decadent, aren't in Washington. They're in places like Teheran. Like Islamabad. Like Kinshasa. Things like, hotels where 5 prostitutes on standby per room is standard. The richest people in the world are people like Putin and Xi Jinping. Communists "defending the rights of the people". And whoever it is in the US at the moment don't remotely compare to them in wealth. And what people are complaining about, in the US, but equally in Germany (well I only know about the Netherlands firsthand, but ... look at the map) is not how good or bad they have it. Simply about "how bad it's getting". In other words, they're complaining this year it's a little bit worse than last year. A tiny little bit. THAT, they can't deal with. Absolute level of wealth? Income inequality? Doesn't really matter. And the scary question is if they'll go to war over that. They certainly have in the past.